Proposed new procedure for dealing with gaming

Nigel,

I think this policy looks like a good starting point, and as you are still in beta, you can tweak it as circumstances require.

I do have a follow-up question though (hey, I'm getting to interview you 8^), does Hubdub have written guidelines for the admins to follow regarding voiding, suspending and settling markets? I ask because the decisions of the admins on these matters appear pretty arbitrary from my perspective.

OTOH, it's beta, and I'm enjoying the community more than the leader board (18th in Overall Quarterly Gain last time I checked 8^), so please take my comments as constructive criticism ... that is the spirit in which I offer them.

General response:

- The "public watch list" must not be too public as I am only now aware of its existence. Where is it?

- I would be interested to know the details of each "gaming conviction" for those on the public watch list so I might keep an eye out for such activities and avoid wagering on them.

- It seems to me that by the time someone hits Stage 4 they should just plain be banned and have their IP address logged to lock them out. If their IP address is dynamic I guess they can just keep haunting the site but at least you tried.

- I would like to think that it would be impossible to 'accidentally' game the site.

- I applaud the hell out of your decisive efforts to rid the site of gaming. It ruins the fun of it for everyone and undermines the credibility of this unique enterprise. Consider this speculation: For every serial gamer you release you keep two hundred appreciative Hubdubbers.

Markov

Ok , a formal apology from me for all the users I have offended.
I would not have acted so arrogantly had someone come out and said that
I understand what "sd" is trying to say . My words will make perfect sense if you were to listen...but the problem is you don't listen...you hear one person shouting and you join the parade . Half the people protesting don't even know my field of activity .
The shout in my profile was in a fit of anger because inspite of the red box krujis went and wrote "This user is suspected of gaming" . If its already written in the box I am sure others can read it .
I have nothing to say about the profile description because it is what I am .Just to please everyone I am editing it and removing the small grey alphabets below it.
Fourthly I want people to recognize the fact that I could not have come to $300000 purely by using unfair means.
I request all users to call off the strike and if it will please them I will ask the admins to have the extra 8350 removed.
I can nor say nor do anything more . If you are not yet satisfied then I cannot satisfy you any further.

IMHO this problem is not of so great importance as it is attributed.
No less problematic is the fact that the # 1 user in the leaderboard had make his not normal huge amount of H$ by more that 2/3 only from questions created by himself and self-responded by him on local american sporting events of little if any interrest for users outside the US.
But this is not a sportbetting site, there are plenty of them outside. And american local sporting (and other) events are far from being really popular for the rest of the world.
This is also a sort of 'gaming' which undoubtfully affect users' success and the leaderboards. And I'm really suspectfull of the fairness of the incredible success on sport betting of the # 1 user. May be the flood of american sporting questions should be limited? It appears that if you are not very familiar with local american sport you haven't any chances to enter top 20 of the leaderboard. Oh, indian cricket too.
These are two faces of the same problem.
So - when one group of these two is attacking the other, this seems a little bit unilatteral.
Also - although user Satyaki was the fist one publicly named as suspect of gaming two months ago, he's listed as 'friend' in most of (and in ALL editors') "My friends' section of those who want his head now. Isn't it a little bit hypocrite?

I had another idea that might be worthy of consideration. How about after the first offense the gamer's predictions (including historical predictions) be made public in their profile. That way the non-cheating users can form a Hubdub Neighborhood Watch to keep an eye on them.

Nigel,

Please allow me to express what I hope is a clear way of looking at this situation.

1. The cheater in question, though certainly not the only "gamer" on hubdub, has ignored you and all the other admins! You guys warned him and fined him, but that did not stop him and he mocked your fine and warning by continuing to cheat.
2. He entirely disrespected you admins' authority to control this site and keep it fair and fun for all players!
3. Taking away only his profits from theft thru gaming the market, you are telling him and all other cheaters that a crime "if even caught" will only cost you what you stole in the first place. That my friend is Not just and only sends a weak message. ...... So please, make the fine much stiffer then that. For you guys' authority and for the integrity of this site.

Now this one is to get into the nuts and bolts of your Newest Proposal:
You Said: First identified instance/set of instances: Email warning, user placed on public watch list (for 2 weeks) and fined 50% of worth.
I Say: Bravo! This is a great 1st punishment. I feel that it is strict enough that most players will not cheat for fear of them losing half their entire fortune.
I Suggest: That you take seriously this "Public Watch List" and actually literally make it public, kind of like the "Leaderboards" but in a separate area, so as not to make it an honor to make the "Most Wanted List, hehe." So please do not limit this "Public Watch List" to a tag beneath the cheaters' name, but actually make it a real list for the sake of the community as a whole.

You Said: Second instance/set of instances: Email warning, user placed on public watch list (for 2 weeks) and fined down to H$1,000.
I Say: Thank you for making this penalty system serious! I think that step two will discourage the more hard core cheaters among us because they may figure that if they can make $500,000 cheating, then hey if they get caught, they'll still have $250,000, and so this makes that idea totally irrelevant and should discourage the other 95% of cheaters.
I Suggest: Please extend the "Public Watch List" from 2 weeks for a 2nd offense, and extent it to 30 days! After all, we are dealing with a repeat offender and this offender has shown an unwillingness to stop, and thus I believe, must be watched for a longer period, so as not to just "let the dust settle" and do it again once the situation calms itself.
Also, I think in addition to it being 30 days on the Public Watch List, and funds taken down to $1,000, I think they should ALSO have their ability to create questions removed for AT LEAST 30 days. After all, why let them be priviledged to participate in the greater community if they are showing continual signs of dishonesty? So I'd sugest removing their creating questions ability for anywhere from 30 days to 6 months, and that decision could be decided by you admins on a case by case basis if you'd like.

You Said: Any subsequent instance will result in definite, permanent suspension of their account.
I Say: Let me buy you admins, all of ya, a round of drinks :-D ... I am pleased to see that you are taking this seriously.
I Suggest: That you also Block their IP so as to prevent that user from creating future accounts and thus it would also eliminate any DUPLICATE accounts that that user ALREADY has in existence. Know what I mean? After all, why would we expect them to only have 1 account? If they are in trouble AND if they are cheating, like Jenni and Rohan spotted, they are most likely using multiple accounts to cheat anyway.
So Ban that account, Ban their IP, Ban their email, Ban their "GetSatisfaction" account, and also Ban all of their other accounts AND create a banned user list alongside the Public Watch List. You know, kinda as a reminder to all current PWL listees that they better get back inline with the rest of the community. And as a user pointed out, this does not stop someone with a dynamic IP, but it is the best I think we can do. And I strongly encourage you guys to do this.

Welp, thank you Nigel for communicating with us. I know that you guys DO care about hubdub, that is why you all work so hard for us members and try your best to keep this place cranking.
I have not been happy to go on strike, as I am disgusted that it ever got this far, but we in the community who have striked and those who haven't but that have expressed anger, distrust, dismay, confusion, etc., by this situation, we felt that this huge public outcry was our only hope of regaining the integrity of the game and regaining our passion for hubdub!
I sincerely hope that you admins do not have bad feelings towards us strikers/protestors, as we undoubtedly got angry yes, but we never meant it towards you guys personally! We were outraged that our concerns were being "ignored" while Satyaki was going around mouthin' at us while you admins sat quiet.
Well, turns out you guys were sleeping, hehehehe, so our bad here in America for that, but please understand that we felt we HAD to cause this huge stink publicly, otherwise, justice was never going to be met.
We felt this way because Satyaki had been cheating for weeks and nothing was publicly or quite frankly, truly being done to stop him. This again is why we believe that a gamer should have his question creating ability taken away! That way a cheater loses more then just time spent and money on hand, but even the ability to truly be an active member of this society as a whole, even if only temporary.

I know that I do not have all the answers and some users or admins may disagree with my "suggestions" however, you admins have asked us to participate in the ongoing evolution of this fantastic and addicting site, and for that I PRAISE YOU GUYS, because nearly no other place actually gives a rats rear end about the members' opinions and concerns!
You admins have always been lightning quick to respond to all my emails and comments and requests, then when this situation occurred, many of us users felt that when the chips were down, all of a sudden you guys stopped listening to us, and that added to our outrage.

I appreciate you admins sooooooo much, I truly do! I have loved this site since day one of my participation (Jan. 29th) and again, I want to hug you all for allowing me to have a part in determining the destiny of this site! That is sooooo cool and so much fun! It's like we are a part of hubdub even though we are on another continent!

You guys and gals made this site possible, you keep it fun and active, and we just want to make sure that it stays that way going forward. It would be a terrible tragedy to lose my #1 site on the world wide web! I come here for hours every day, it is my most visited site!

So you guys truly rock! We love you guys here in America! We thank you all for allowing us to participate in this awesome game and in the evolution of the rules and procedures!

Thanks Again and I look forward soooo much to Monday, however, as a precaution and a loyalty to my fellow members of this ongoing protest, I Will Remain On Strike Until Monday, so as to do my part to insure as best I can from 10,000 miles away, that true justice is served, that the hubdub community is served rightly, that gamers past and present are punished accordingly, and that we can move on from this ugly episode and get back to why we all log in each day, Predicting The Outcome Of World News Events :-D

lucidstates (This user: Is On Strike)

P.S. Sorry to use up so much time, but I think I've now said my peace ... So until Monday, see ya later ;-D

I agree that banishment is a little harsh for his past actions... with a clearly defined set of rules about what "gaming" is, going forward, i would have to agree with the above rules. Sometimes I bet on questions that seem to have low odds for the outcome, but the question does not get voided after 12 hours. Is it gaming to vote on open questions that you feel comfortable that the odds are not correct, or that the payoff is worth the risk? I bet on a lot of basketball questions, well after there was significant betting on the markets, because the odds were 85-15 or better (i bet on the underdogs.) Now, I LOST every one of them, but was i gaming or just taking risks? I'm not equating that with satyaki's situation, but i wouldn't want to be accused of gaming based on those criteria. From what I understand, satyaki set the odds at 50/50 or close to it. I don't know much about cricket, or the teams. Is an international team that much better than a regional team? would the US olympic basketball team be THAT much better than the Celtics or the Hornets? I don't know... it just seems like a lot of fun is taken out of the hubdub experience when we have to have these arguments (although, some arguments like "resignation" and "delegates" are extremely entertaining...) If satyaki IS gaming the system, the administrators should take a stand, make an example, and not let this thing continue to snowball into a flame of striker's comments on questions....

PS: Will HubDub develop an easier way to review past comments by the November 4th Election?

Thanks for reading,
See you at the top of the weekly earnings ranks!
(not)

I have an account with Google AdSense.

If a Google AdSense account holder cheats, or breaks any one of numerous, somewhat complex rules, they are banned. For life.

One fraudulent click, and the user is banned for life.

I don't click on any of my colleagues AdSense links. They don't click on any of mine. I'm not concerned that I will be caught -- rather I don't want to do anything that might, in some possible way, harm them.

Google could give people 5 chances, or 3 chances. They choose to have a business model where an individual/business entity has one chance.

In doing so, they have also created an atmosphere where many account holders care about other "users" such that they won't do anything that could cause them harm. That's pretty amazing for a multi-billion dollar business model.

One observation I have made while tripping through life is that if someone does something once, it's likely that they will do it again.

Of course there are, thankfully, many exceptions to that. And that doesn't mean that I don't believe in second, or third, or nnn chances. What it means is that my anticipations change based on experience. I can also, usually/often, distinguish between a person, and that person's "act", i.e., what they do, as opposed to who they are.

My sense is that "gaming the system" is addictive. If "it worked once", I hold the view that a user will "try it again". If someone can do it once, and are warned about it, then that warning either serves as a wake-up-call, or it doesn't. The proposed penalties strike me as less of a "wake-up alarm" -- and feel more like HD wants to continually hit the "snooze" button.

All of that said, I feel the proposed multiple warnings/penalties are counter productive, and work against the viability of the HD site, and the experience of the user base. I agree with the sentiments expressed by crudsy, in this forum, and in several of the market message threads, on that subject.

I would support one email warning for suspected gaming, and an immediate, lifetime, ban for actual gaming, or a second occurrence of "suspected gaming".

With regard to the "user in question", I see little to no reason not to delete that user's account. If HD wishes to persist in granting additional warnings because you don't wish to "apply banning retroactively", then I would suggest, as a one-time action, that HD restore that user's status to the initial H$1,000, and void all questions created by that user (balancing markets if you can). Notwithstanding that exemption, I would implement the new (aforementioned) suggested rule immediately.

I feel it is important to keep in mind that the timely banning of a user is not against the user, as much as it is for the Hubdub site.

NEED FOR PROMINENT DISCLOSURE & INFORMATION

1. I would cheer lead for Hubdub to have a separate screen containing the most recently revised "HD Rules" that all new users are required to "Accept / Not Accept" as part of the "establishing an account" function. I understand that the TOS / TOU likely incorporates this already, however it is important that all users have the opportunity of understanding the rules, and a separate page would call attention to the rules, and allow HD to emphasize any particular rules they wish. The penalty for "gaming" ought be emphasized in the rules that new users agree to.

2. When new rules are promulgated, I suggest that an email be sent to all existing users, advising them of the new rule(s) (and highlighting what is "new"). This would, I believe, add value to both users and HD.

3. I suggest the permanent link to the "Good Question Guide" that is currently on all market "summary pages" ("newest", "most active", "closing soon", "recently settled", "recent comments"), be expanded to include that this is a link to the Hubdub Rules.

To help stem duplicate account abuse, I suggest that HD no longer accept new members with email from Hotmail, Yahoo, AOL, GMail and other freebie, throw-away email accounts -- as is the practice of many top-drawer user sites. Other news prediction sites require full name, address, city, state/province, country and phone. While that requirement may be too high a barrier vis-a-vis privacy and spamming concerns, requiring a prime email address, IMNHO, is both reasonable and necessary.

HALL OF SHAME AND OTHER ABUSE

In my view, ad hominem attacks, name calling, (potential) libel, and the calling-out of users in message threads, forums, and/or on profiles, have no place on Hubdub. This applies to HD users as well as HD staff. While a "Hall of Shame" may titillate the senses of some users, I would offer a reminder that it is Hubdub's walls that are being decorated. I have no framed portraits of OJ Simpson on the walls of my home or office -- why would I want to look at shame when I can look at glory or beauty?

I guess I have to add that this presupposes users caught gaming the system are banned, as suggested in this post. If they are not, I have diminished interest participating in a watered down community whilst looking for scarlet letters.

In my view, users who spam message threads and/or hijack message threads for their own purpose are spewing abuse on other HD users, as well as degrading and devaluing the Hubdub site. In my view, these messages ought be immediately deleted from the system, and the user immediately warned not to engage in such activities again. If they persist in repeating the offense, I suggest they be immediately banned/deleted, without further notice.

If users don't want to use the established channels of "Contact Us", or creating a thread in the Get Satisfaction forum, then, in my view, they are free to go and create the type of site they want to have elsewhere on the web.

In short, users have choices to participate in ways that have been established for the benefit of all users on Hubdub -- or in new ways that they may suggest (by offering suggestions), however hijacking message threads to seemingly advance their own personal agenda isn't, IMNHO, "what HD is about". If a user ultimately doesn't like "what HD is about", then they are free to go elsewhere and/or start their own site, but trashing the existing site with their litter ought not be condoned. Once again, this is not against the user, rather it is for the growing HD community.

In order for this to work, however, Hubdub needs to immediately clarify the purpose and intent of the Get Satisfaction forum. As it is, I have come to discover that the Get Satisfaction forum is an integral component of decision making involving users -- when Hubdub decides it wants it to be.

When users create a thread on Get Satisfaction, it is, currently, not necessarily an integral component of decision making. User issues may receive the attention of staff -- but not necessarily the action of staff. This was made clear in a recent response from a HD admin in a Get Satisfaction thread:

"The original idea behind us using getsatisfaction was as a forum for users to discuss problems and ideas amongst themselves, and as such I will admit that our involvement/response times has been a little sporadic or slow at times. The quickest way of getting a response from us directly has always been to use the "Contact Us" form on Hubdub (at the foot of every page).

"However, in light of these discussions, we've changed our internal processes which should now mean that we will be more responsive on this forum."

I'd cheer for HD to make an explicit statement of the purpose of the Get Satisfaction forum -- however they wish to use it -- so that users know if they will receive an action-step, or not, when they post a specific request in this forum.

I also suggest making the existing link, captioned, "Active customer service discussions in Hubdub" (on the Public Help page), look more like a link, and include instructions that a new, separate, registration is required to post to the Get Satisfaction forum. In short, eliminate as many barriers as possible to reach user support.

CONCLUSION:

Gaming is known to exist on Hubdub. Other users in this forum thread have detected it. I have detected it, in the past, and sent along the info to staff, who confirmed it was gaming.

Given that users can detect it -- without the ability to look into accounts as admins can -- it seems somewhat reasonable to think that HD staff needs to do more than it's currently doing to both detect and eradicate gaming.

If there are 5,000 users, and two are known to have gamed, Hubdub is looking at "protecting" 0.04% (4/100ths of 1 percent) of the users with the HD suggested "multiple warnings". This strikes me as HD bending over backwards so far that they lose sight of the other 99.96% of the user base.