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Proposed new procedure for dealing with gaming
To date we have dealt with gaming on a case by case basis. However it has become clear that we need to have a defined process for dealing with individuals that game. Therefore this is our proposed procedure:
First identified instance/set of instances: Email warning
Second identified instance/set of instances: Email warning, user placed on public watch list (for 2 weeks) and fined 50% of worth
Third instance/set of instances: Email warning, user placed on public watch list (for 2 weeks) and fined down to H$1,000
Any subsequent instance will result in their ability to create questions removed and potentially suspension of their account.
We propose to apply this procedure for all new instances of gaming however some users are on their first warning and one user is on their second warning.
First identified instance/set of instances: Email warning
Second identified instance/set of instances: Email warning, user placed on public watch list (for 2 weeks) and fined 50% of worth
Third instance/set of instances: Email warning, user placed on public watch list (for 2 weeks) and fined down to H$1,000
Any subsequent instance will result in their ability to create questions removed and potentially suspension of their account.
We propose to apply this procedure for all new instances of gaming however some users are on their first warning and one user is on their second warning.
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Inappropriate?to get it right in a current matter:
sd would be on stage 2: 50% penalty? -
Inappropriate?Currently the plan is not to apply the rules retrospectively. That just doesn't feel fair. Satyaki is already having the pleasure of being placed on the public watch list. Any further transgressions at any point (even after the two weeks) and he will see his entire worth reduced to H$1,000.
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Inappropriate?Nigel,
I think this policy looks like a good starting point, and as you are still in beta, you can tweak it as circumstances require.
I do have a follow-up question though (hey, I'm getting to interview you 8^), does Hubdub have written guidelines for the admins to follow regarding voiding, suspending and settling markets? I ask because the decisions of the admins on these matters appear pretty arbitrary from my perspective.
OTOH, it's beta, and I'm enjoying the community more than the leader board (18th in Overall Quarterly Gain last time I checked 8^), so please take my comments as constructive criticism ... that is the spirit in which I offer them.
I’m trying to help, but I'm not sure it's working
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Inappropriate?just to ascertain: is it technically possible to reduce one's wealth to 1K from 350K (with 323K predictions) without massively affecting markets?
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Inappropriate?Nigel - I would restrict the question creation sooner than stage 4. Maybe anyone on the public watchlist can't create questions? Creating questions is tricky and assumes the absolute best of intentions by the creators -- not a safe assumption in the case of known gamers.
I’m sorry we have to talk about this
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Inappropriate?i think the rules are fair but i dont get the obsession with protecting this guy..he has made a mockery of the site not once but twice..he should lose his 50 percent because he was already warned..he shouldnt be on the leaderboard because he didnt do it even remotely in a legitimate way..what really isnt fair is that this has had to come up again after the bad feelings the first time when we thought if it would happen again it would be dealt with appropriately but instead being fair to him is the priority?..to say im dissapointed is an understatment but to say im not surprised is not -
Inappropriate?Good point kruijs, I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps the Royal Escrow Bank of Hubdub should take over convicted gamers' open positions. If the accusations against satyaki are true, I'd bet that the Royal Coffers of Hubdub could use an infusion of H$.
This would keep the markets stable, and prevent some rather far-fetched, "be caught gaming the system to game the system further", scenarios from playing out.
I’m serious!
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Inappropriate?General response:
- The "public watch list" must not be too public as I am only now aware of its existence. Where is it?
- I would be interested to know the details of each "gaming conviction" for those on the public watch list so I might keep an eye out for such activities and avoid wagering on them.
- It seems to me that by the time someone hits Stage 4 they should just plain be banned and have their IP address logged to lock them out. If their IP address is dynamic I guess they can just keep haunting the site but at least you tried.
- I would like to think that it would be impossible to 'accidentally' game the site.
- I applaud the hell out of your decisive efforts to rid the site of gaming. It ruins the fun of it for everyone and undermines the credibility of this unique enterprise. Consider this speculation: For every serial gamer you release you keep two hundred appreciative Hubdubbers.
Markov -
Inappropriate?This is ridiculous. Simply put, the rules need to be strict and fair. First time someone is caught gaming the site, there should be public notice, ability to create questions suspended for 30 days, and account reset to $1,000. Second time someone games the site their account should be banned, thier IP address banned and thier positions in all markets not created by them to be taken over by Hubdub so not to create wild swings in markets.
I think gaming is the worse thing to happen. If I go from $1k to $100k and you take 50%, woo hoo, i still made 49K. Then I do it again, it is likely you won't ever find out, unless the entire site stands up and throws a fit, then if you do, oh no, i am back to 1k, please these rules will do nothing to stop gaming. Show the community that we don't allow gaming, BAN this user and lets move on.
And lets not try to pretend that your category admins didn't know about his gaming. I personally let 3 different ones know and each stated they knew, and were watching. -
Inappropriate?I am glad there is a solution in the works, tho I agree with most replies - the stretching out is too much. On strike 3 you should be out- 2 "warnings/wrist-slaps" are the limit.
I’m confident
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Inappropriate?In this and many other threads tonight, the language is clearly getting more and more heated. I wonder what will be in my inbox when I get up tomorrow morning?
Here's (just two of) my thoughts:
1) Users do not feel Hubdub is taking a proactive role in curbing gaming. The anger at Satyaki is turning to anger at the admin's perceived lack of response.
2) Satyaki's continued active presence today (commenting, new questions, etc) seems to many to be a blatant disregard of the rules and his warning. (I personally take it as the actions of a teenage boy who's been backed into a corner, but that's a matter of interpertation).
On #1:
In the past most (all?) gaming issues have been handled behind the scenes. The only reason we know of satyaki's previous trouble is that he told us. We have no idea if/how often this has happened in the past. Some confirmation from the admins that they take this seriously and devote energy to detecting gaming would help.
On #2:
I think it unlikely that he will voluntarily fade into the background (humility is not a strength of most teens) and therefore would hope that a temporary suspension of privileges at least might be in order.
One final thought, this is still pretty new. The admins have never dealt with Spitzer, windchill or Indian Cricket League before. Lets give them the benefit of the doubt, discuss this civilly and we'll all learn something in the process.
I’m very tired
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Inappropriate?Jenni I think you have amazing ideas. I think in regards to this particular issue, his actions are not because of the situation, the situation is because of his actions. We were all here the first time, and warned admins regularly about the ongoing problem. It was only after it wasn't being stopped at all, and our complaints were being ignored, that the users finally got past the point of no return.
The admins now have a choice, determine the direction they wish to take thier site. -
Inappropriate?yeah,,they cant claim ignorance on this one..sorry
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Inappropriate?Good perspective. Remember all his concern in wanting to know who of us was which sex? I had forgotten that he is young (tho not innocent) and with different values than many of us. He isn't playing the same game as we are, so I ignore him... But I do hope the system stops his gaming, for there are others who don't know this youngster's nonvalue.
I’m indiferent to the player, but focused on the administration
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Inappropriate?hi.
I want to make it clear that I am
NOT
defending satyaki's actions: it's just that I felt going on "strike" and posting comments aren't sensible means to get what you want. But then, looking at the non-responsive staff, I think that that is the only way to go. Though I don't wanna go on strike.
I think that these measures hould be taken:
1. When questions are made which repreent local interests, by any user, then the question should be flagged and suspended. A user who actually knows something about this should be consulted and they should provide substantiated proof that the question is OK or not.
2. Satyaki: Reduce his H$ to $25,000. I don't think anything could be more bugging to him. ban him from creating more than 2 questions a week, which if voided for a gaming-related reason will lead to a fine of 25% of his wealth or double his wager, as the case may be.
3. Hubdub: become more responsive. PLEASE. -
Inappropriate?He has been fined before, that did nothing to stop him. If anything it made him do it more. Enough is enough. A complete ban, and any other users that want to game can see that this site will not put up with it. This isn't a simple matter of gaming one question here or there, but a mass amount of gaming, throwing it in the face of all the good and honest users, and the only way to deal with it is to completely get rid of it.
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Inappropriate?Bravo! Destry, Bravo!
Get serious admins, I like the overall idea of the rules, but for pete's sake, SLASH Satyaki's pile of cash to H$1,000 now, remove his ability to create markets, and keep that "humiliating" tag on his name for 30 days, not 2 weeks.
Going forward, I agree with the earlier posters, DON'T have a 5 step "crime reduction plan" do it hard and fast, 1 strike take half their account, warn them in email, place the public humiliation banner under their name for 30 days, 2nd strike, knock em to H$1,000 remove their ability to create questions for a year, 3rd strike, BAN THEM and their IP and email forever!!!
I’m am so disappointed right now
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Inappropriate?Jenni, you are so awesome! I react sooo like a guy, it is nice to see your calm demeanor and sensebility. I must admit, I've exploded over this issue and you are absolutely right in saying that the anger has turned from Satyaki to the Admins!
I love hubdub more then these admins realize, and that is why I am so upset, because I love this game and to find a cheater, and an administration that appears utterly relaxed and uncaring about our trouble over this situation has certainly turned our anger from the little snot to the admins.
You are right, we DO need to give them the benefit of the doubt, they have never had a situation like this before, however, I think that the sheer number of responses, comments, rantings, and NOW A STRIKE, haha after just 4 months, hubdubs' first official players' strike has occurred, and I think this is blatantly obvious of how seriously we members take trouble makers! Why do we play if admins tip toe around a rambunctious teenage boy?
Thank you for expressing in civil and reasonable words, what my ranting has uneffectively attempted to convey :-D
You are a valued member Jenni, thanks
lucidstates (Thus user: Is On Strike)
I’m Wow what grief a child can bring!
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Inappropriate?Haha true, most definitely true :-D
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Inappropriate?Amen! You got it Destry!
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Inappropriate?Thanks for the comments. Sorry about being slow getting back to this. I posted this up last night before I went to bed.
Some very good points made above which I will try to summarise:
1. We should provide more information about the gaming activity
2. Cheating shouldn't be rewarded & Satyaki should be banned
3. Is it possible to fine a user down to H$1,000 without causing havoc in the markets (I guess you could call this the Bear Stearns problem)?
4. Gamers should have their ability to create questions restricted on the second offence
Answers:
1. Agreed
Rohan pointed out several questions which we investigated:
http://www.hubdub.com/e/Market/ICL_Ti...
http://www.hubdub.com/e/Market/ICL__H...
http://www.hubdub.com/e/Market/ICL_Li...
http://www.hubdub.com/e/Market/ICL__G...
http://www.hubdub.com/e/Market/ICL_Ti...
http://www.hubdub.com/e/Market/ICL_Ro...
We found that the starting prices were set at 48% for both Badshahs and the opposing sides in all instances (and 4% for no result/draw). On further investigation we found that the Badshahs are a team of internationals and that these starting odds are heavily at variance from the true prices.
Satyaki made large predictions in all the questions (apart from the Rockets question) predicting the Badshahs to win. That netted him a profit of H$8,350.99. From this activity one can infer that he knew the original starting prices were not accurate.
2. I think yes and no
We didn't have an agreed procedure in place to deal with gaming and I feel it is unfair to apply rules retrospectively. However cheating shouldn't be rewarded and I propose that we fine Satyaki his winnings in these questions. I don't think banning is appropriate at this point. If he repeats again then he will be fined down to H$1,000 and have his question creating ability temporarily removed.
3. Very good question. I don't know but I will check with Chris and Tom.
4. I think this is a very good suggestion. We will need to develop that functionality and put that in the process.
One last point, we are now working on functionality that means that new questions have to go through a verification process. That process will most likely be by power users although the details still need to be worked out. We expect that will *significantly* reduce a users ability to game the system. -
Inappropriate?Yeah, I was the one who made $1500 on the Rockets. Go ahead and take it away: If you don't want to, I can bet the extra cash on any impossible outcome(Eg DOW closing below 10,000 in Q1 2008). No question of me making money with that, because I have a perpetual excess of cash( currently $320,000)
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Inappropriate?Over 10 Hubdubbers went on strike , 130+ comments were posted , 2 special questions were created , 4 questions were voided , 2 Hubdub threads developed into extremely long conversations and all for $8350 in 2 weeks . If someone wants to take it away they are most welcome although I don't see what change it would bring about in the leaderboard. -
Inappropriate?Well I disagree strongly with the decision. There were no gaming rules in place when Hubdub fined this user the first time. Everyone was in favor of it then, and I guess it just was assumed that another instance, much less dozens of instances of cheating, would be enough to ban this user.
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Inappropriate?You are so stupid.
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Inappropriate?The $8350 is just the latest example in a long line of cheating. You cheated. You have been cheating. You can't compete without cheating, therefore you cheated. It is simple. You love all this attention, that is why you are still doing it, why you didn't stop after the first time you got caught. Now you are simply making the site worthless for everyone else. Obviously Nigel loves you, and the fact you use all thier stupid social networking features, so keep enjoying, god knows none of the admins have the balls to stop you.
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Inappropriate?Ok , a formal apology from me for all the users I have offended.
I would not have acted so arrogantly had someone come out and said that
I understand what "sd" is trying to say . My words will make perfect sense if you were to listen...but the problem is you don't listen...you hear one person shouting and you join the parade . Half the people protesting don't even know my field of activity .
The shout in my profile was in a fit of anger because inspite of the red box krujis went and wrote "This user is suspected of gaming" . If its already written in the box I am sure others can read it .
I have nothing to say about the profile description because it is what I am .Just to please everyone I am editing it and removing the small grey alphabets below it.
Fourthly I want people to recognize the fact that I could not have come to $300000 purely by using unfair means.
I request all users to call off the strike and if it will please them I will ask the admins to have the extra 8350 removed.
I can nor say nor do anything more . If you are not yet satisfied then I cannot satisfy you any further.
I’m sorry
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Inappropriate?Well now the Admins have a formal confession. Can we please ban this user, so the rest of the community can make Hubdub what it should be, and not dominated by one confessed cheater.
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Inappropriate?Have my coffee and have worked through most of the 70 posts that came in while I was sleeping... (Must go get some chocolate first...) Ok. Here I go...
Still a couple of disjointed thoughts here:
1. I am greatly looking forward to the power vetting feature. I think it will drastically reduce a lot of heartache on this site, although I'm sure there will be growing pains with implementing it as well. *(Rohan's note about regional markets needing someone with knowledge of the issue is a VERY good one).*
2. There has been a level of trust that the admins are actively working to eliminate gaming. I and many other users regularly flag suspiscious users and markets to the admins. I have never received any feedback on these flags and just assumed that it was being taken care of and the admins were trying to be discreet with their anti-gaming activity. Many users now feel that trust has been betrayed. More communication across the board (not just Satyaki related) on gaming issues is neccessary at this point to regain that trust.
3. If the issue in question is setting inaccurate odds and then benefitting from them, I could list a number of other markets and users I think have been regularly gaming the system this way. Why aren't we talking about them and posting nasty messages on their boards? Three partial answers:
a) They aren't as active on Hubdub's comment board so it doesn't seem as blatant
b) Most of them aren't in the top 20 of the leaderboard
c) Everyone doesn't know about it
I will wager my entire hub"fortune" that he is not the first to do something like this. We just happen to know about his actions and so he is becoming the focus of the anger.
4. In regards to satyaki, the original call was to have his h$ taken away, but as the mob got louder, the demands changed as well. A complete ban is not warranted, in my mind *for this offense*. I still think a temporary suspension will help both sides calm down a little.
What I don't know, and hope the admins are looking into, is if the question practice extended beyond the ICL markets.
(There have been another 6 posts while I was composing this one...)
Now I'm going to go spend my 20$ and stop thinking about this whole mess.
I’m NOT ON STRIKE (and a very slow typer apparently)!
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Inappropriate?Jenni great comments. I think the difference between my view and yours is that I have been here since he did it the first time. Then the punishment was a 50% penalty and what we were told was a warning. Now the cheating which has been going on and on in tons of other markets other than the ones Rohan pointed out, is just the culmination of an entire history of cheating. There comes a time to draw a line in the sand, with this user this is the time, and these are the conditions.
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Inappropriate?Just to be clear, what I am proposing above is still for discussion. What I would like is to get input from more users whether this is the correct way to deal with this or whether we should take a different course of action. Hopefully, we can produce some sort of consensus and then we will take the appropriate action on Monday.
Rules and decisions of this importance always have been and will remain up to the broader Hubdub community. -
Inappropriate?When a decision as simple as this can't be reached within 24 hours, it is no wonder our other concerns are not being dealt with. This is a clear cut case of cheating. We have a confession. How many more people does it take to convince the admins to do the sensible thing. A simple ban of this user, allows the entire community to put this behind us and move forward. The drawing out of this process, just gives users more time to stew over a horrible situation.
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Inappropriate?A lot of people here are unreasonable, vindictive and generally have strange, unconvincing and silly arguments. And its a sad thing that they are thinking with every organ of their body 'cept their *alleged* brains. Half of you don't make sense and just want to take revenge. As Nigel so aptly put it , "MOB JUSTICE".
I am SURE that atleast 20% of the users here have cheated, gamed or acted in a way not expected of someone playing fairly. This has nothing to do with satyaki, but it would be nice if sometimes you people practised what you preached. Settlement requests related to HUGE spikes in the correct option are common (meanderingsearcher is one of the few I have seen where 45% remains at 45% even after he submits a request). And be reasonable. Don't go around criticising Hubdub. I think that apart from being a bit slow to res
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