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Suspension ratios, shocks and the Fury...
Hi guys,
A few questions that I would like answers for. Hopefully MC themselves can add their two cents worth.
1) Being a single pivot design, is the Fury considered a 1 to 1 leverage ratio when it comes to the rear suspension?
2) If so,what would something like a Specialized Enduro (or just about any other model that they make) be for the rear suspension leverage ratio.
3) Does MC test certain shocks for the proper valving for this single pivot design, or have the shock manufacturer valved the shocks specific for this single pivot design? Clearly the leverage ratio of the bike has lots to do with the shocks valving.
I have a Fury (2004) that originally came with a Fifth Element Air (Junk) and after two factory defective units the dealer gave me a Fifth Element Coil model. Clearly this model doesn't work well at all with the Fury. It was AWFUL! I herd it works well on high leverage ratio bikes...but it suck on the Fury.
After struggling with this I decided to take a chance and try out the new (at the time) Rock Shox Perl. I had a complete change in the bikes personality! I have quiet a bit of suspension experiance on motocross and enduro motorcycles over the past 20 years. So I do know what I want and what I should get out of a high quality suspension system. With the Rock Shox Perl I got that performance.
Well after about 2 months of riding with the Perl, it became damaged...and actually ruptured and was usless. The factory covered under warranty. They replaced it with what looked like a factory refurbished unit. I installed it on the Fury and rode it twice and it starting leaking oil...so they sent me another one and again after the first ride it again leaked oil. This actually happened 3 times total. They said my frame had to be tweaked for this to happend on every shock. After comparing my frame to my brothers exact Fury and talking to MC about some critical measurements we determined the frame was just fine.
I then contacted Rock Shock and demanded that they send me NEW Perl 3.3. They did but by this time I lost confidence in Rock Shox and the Perl. During this time, while I was waiting to get my new Perl I ordered a Marzocchi Roco SPL air. This sock was pretty good but not as good as the Perl. There was a time when riding very fast over many roots and small rock that the rear end would feel like it was made of butter. I mean so smooth it felt like our motorcycles. I have not felt that in a long time now. The Fury became very motorcycle like in it's quality of ride. Very predictable and very fun to ride.
The Perl came in finally from Rock Shox...of course they didn't send me the bushings that I sent them. So now I had a shock, brand new, that I can't use because they didn't send me the hardware to install it! What ever! To this day I still have that shock here. I was considering reinstalled it on the Fury until the other day when there was another option.
My brothers Fury is a 2006 model but it came with a Manitou coil shock Being a coil shock it was never tried or tested on the bike. As soon as he got the bike it was removed and replaced with a Perl 3.3. What a mistake that turned out to be!
After having not the best of performance with the Perl I reminded him that he still had that coil shock in his closet. The Manitou is a very simple design. It has a rebound, preload, and the air adjustment for it's "pedal platform".
He installed it and gave it a quick test ride and was very impressed. We then took it out to our normal trails and the performance was as good as anyone could expect. It put even the Perl to shame. The first thing was noticed right way (after setting the sage) was if you pick the bike up and drop it from about a foot, it stuck to the ground and didn't bounce like ALL of the air shock I've ever tried. It was like it was glued to the ground. After the first lap over very familiar terrain he was shocked at how much less effort the bike was to ride. Much less fatige and he found himself going into corners much faster than before with the Perl. The bike just seem to stick to the ground no matter what type of terrain we were riding on. Square edged bumps that normally would make the bike hop, felt round and almost flat. Even with all the air shocks that I've had, I never got this much performance!
I guess what I'm really asking is, what is going on here?
We can't seemed to get a straight answer out of anybody about this stuff.
On this single pivot Fury what should the spring rate be on a coil for a range of rider weights?
Clearly a shock that works well on a four bar rear suspension design won't work as well on a single pivot, low ratio bike...so what does MC recommend.
Thanks guys...sorry about the half an hour post here...I've just been dealing with this issue for so long and wanted to get some feedback.
Chris
A few questions that I would like answers for. Hopefully MC themselves can add their two cents worth.
1) Being a single pivot design, is the Fury considered a 1 to 1 leverage ratio when it comes to the rear suspension?
2) If so,what would something like a Specialized Enduro (or just about any other model that they make) be for the rear suspension leverage ratio.
3) Does MC test certain shocks for the proper valving for this single pivot design, or have the shock manufacturer valved the shocks specific for this single pivot design? Clearly the leverage ratio of the bike has lots to do with the shocks valving.
I have a Fury (2004) that originally came with a Fifth Element Air (Junk) and after two factory defective units the dealer gave me a Fifth Element Coil model. Clearly this model doesn't work well at all with the Fury. It was AWFUL! I herd it works well on high leverage ratio bikes...but it suck on the Fury.
After struggling with this I decided to take a chance and try out the new (at the time) Rock Shox Perl. I had a complete change in the bikes personality! I have quiet a bit of suspension experiance on motocross and enduro motorcycles over the past 20 years. So I do know what I want and what I should get out of a high quality suspension system. With the Rock Shox Perl I got that performance.
Well after about 2 months of riding with the Perl, it became damaged...and actually ruptured and was usless. The factory covered under warranty. They replaced it with what looked like a factory refurbished unit. I installed it on the Fury and rode it twice and it starting leaking oil...so they sent me another one and again after the first ride it again leaked oil. This actually happened 3 times total. They said my frame had to be tweaked for this to happend on every shock. After comparing my frame to my brothers exact Fury and talking to MC about some critical measurements we determined the frame was just fine.
I then contacted Rock Shock and demanded that they send me NEW Perl 3.3. They did but by this time I lost confidence in Rock Shox and the Perl. During this time, while I was waiting to get my new Perl I ordered a Marzocchi Roco SPL air. This sock was pretty good but not as good as the Perl. There was a time when riding very fast over many roots and small rock that the rear end would feel like it was made of butter. I mean so smooth it felt like our motorcycles. I have not felt that in a long time now. The Fury became very motorcycle like in it's quality of ride. Very predictable and very fun to ride.
The Perl came in finally from Rock Shox...of course they didn't send me the bushings that I sent them. So now I had a shock, brand new, that I can't use because they didn't send me the hardware to install it! What ever! To this day I still have that shock here. I was considering reinstalled it on the Fury until the other day when there was another option.
My brothers Fury is a 2006 model but it came with a Manitou coil shock Being a coil shock it was never tried or tested on the bike. As soon as he got the bike it was removed and replaced with a Perl 3.3. What a mistake that turned out to be!
After having not the best of performance with the Perl I reminded him that he still had that coil shock in his closet. The Manitou is a very simple design. It has a rebound, preload, and the air adjustment for it's "pedal platform".
He installed it and gave it a quick test ride and was very impressed. We then took it out to our normal trails and the performance was as good as anyone could expect. It put even the Perl to shame. The first thing was noticed right way (after setting the sage) was if you pick the bike up and drop it from about a foot, it stuck to the ground and didn't bounce like ALL of the air shock I've ever tried. It was like it was glued to the ground. After the first lap over very familiar terrain he was shocked at how much less effort the bike was to ride. Much less fatige and he found himself going into corners much faster than before with the Perl. The bike just seem to stick to the ground no matter what type of terrain we were riding on. Square edged bumps that normally would make the bike hop, felt round and almost flat. Even with all the air shocks that I've had, I never got this much performance!
I guess what I'm really asking is, what is going on here?
We can't seemed to get a straight answer out of anybody about this stuff.
On this single pivot Fury what should the spring rate be on a coil for a range of rider weights?
Clearly a shock that works well on a four bar rear suspension design won't work as well on a single pivot, low ratio bike...so what does MC recommend.
Thanks guys...sorry about the half an hour post here...I've just been dealing with this issue for so long and wanted to get some feedback.
Chris
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Inappropriate?Answer to 1 &2:
A simplistic way to determine leverage ratio is to divide total travel by shock stroke. In the Fury it works out to 5"/2"= 2.5
This means for every 1 inch of compression on the shock, the wheel moves 2.5 inches. This of course assumes that the designer/marketing dept didn't fudge actual travel numbers. (Fury is bang on)
In practice, the leverage ratio can change throughout the travel depending on the design of the linkages and/or attachment points of the shock. The Fury stays relatively straight rate at 2.5:1. Most 5" travel bikes hover around the same ratio.
I can't directly answer question 3 as I don't work for MC, but you're right, the shock should be valved for the bike, regardless of design. Coil shocks, in general, have less stiction and that is a major factor in them usually feeling smoother/plusher than an air shock.
The appropriate coil spring rate depends not only on your weight and leverage ratio, but also on what kind of valving you have and what your IFP pressure is. I can't tell you what a Swinger needs since I don't like or use position sensitive shocks, but a Fox Vanilla needs a 450-500#/in spring for a 180# rider. Stratos Helix (Best option in my opinion, but unavailable) uses 325#.
Sorry to hear about your experience with Rock Shox. Though they're much better than they were 10 years ago, I still don't completely trust them.
FYI, if you want to try a really eye opening shock on the Fury, go with a Marzocchi Roco LO DC. 7.5 eye to eye. Unbelievable... especially for an air shock.
I’m amused
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Inappropriate?Ahhh Thanks Henry!
Finally an intelligent reply! Thanks for that.
First question is, I currently am using the Marzocchi Roco SPL air, is that that much different than the Rocco LO DC? It looks almost exactly alike.
I have to say that the Fury does not need a pedal platform. I have NEVER had any issues with suspension bob. The Fury climbs very very well...but not if your standing. Because I tend to sit down for climbs, the bike doesn't bob. I actually would like to get a shock that doesn't have any "pedal platform"
Of course the Manitou coil show has NO spring rating on it at all, so we have no idea what the rate is.
My brother weighs about #170 and I weigh about #140. Because of this I know that the spring rate that he has isn't going to cut it for me. The preload rings simply don't have enough of adjustment for my weight.
What about sag. In my motorcycle days the sag is set by measuring the distance between the seat bolt and the rear axle. But with a motorcycle there was two measurement to be concerned with.
1) the "sag" which was the measurement of the seat bolt to the rear axle with just the weigh of the bike.
2) the "riders sag" was how much the bike sagged with the rider on board.
Obviously a bike doesn't have enough weight to sag on it's own...so that's out. What about the "rider sag"?
Each suspension manufacturer and bike manufacturer recommends different amounts depending on the shock/bike.
What's your input on this?
The sag is very important when it comes to suspension performance. When it's dialed the bike just "sits" in corners and is very predictable in it's response to most terrain. Without the correct sag set the bike tends to feel like it "high sides" in corners and doesn't track as well.
Thanks Henry for your time and efforts!
Chris
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Inappropriate?I can't really say about the SPL (or is it 3PL?) since I've never had one. I agree the 3PL does look a lot like the LO DC but there is at least one functional difference from what I can tell: the 3pl has three positions on the lock out lever, LO has on and off. Anecdotally, I called Marzo before I bought the LO to ask the difference between the LO and the 3PL (3pl's were on closeout all over the web), and their guy said the LO is more reliable. I don't know if that's true or just that guy toeing the company line. No idea about the valving. Please post whatever you find out about the 3PL. I'd love to learn about it.
What I can say about the LO DC is that its downhill performance is stellar, no doubt a result of its nicely progressive spring rate and whatever valve architecture Marzo uses. Where it comes up short, and this is just a slight shortcoming since it works almost perfectly with the Fury, is that tuning is a bit limited with only air pressure and rebound to work with. I suppose the air progressivity is also somewhat tuneable by adding oil to the air can, but that can be a pain. This is the area that the Helix Expert had it all over the Roco. Sadly, mine gave up the ghost recently (necessitating the Roco) after 4 years of hard riding.
I agree, pedal platform sucks for this bike. Marzocchi does not put platform in their shocks unless you count the lockout/TST. When wide open, it performs butter smooth. Any stiction you feel in a Roco is likely due to inadequate lubrication between the shock body and air can. This was a huge culprit in early Roco mortalities. Manitou, Progressive, Romic, and Fox (except for the 2010 DHX line) all have some platform. So the answer to your question: you probably already have what you're looking for.
As for sag, you're right that only rider sag is measureable. Because on a mountain bike the shock is generally easy to access, it's simpler to measure sag settings at the shock. This advantageously makes it a one man job. Just put an o-ring on the shock shaft and sit on the bike. The seal head on the shock will then push the o-ring to the sag position which you can then measure when you get off the bike. Target 25% of the total stroke (in our case it works out to 0.5") as a starting point. Reduce sag for more cross country tightness, add sag for more plushness. On my Helix, the best setting was 30%. Roco likes 25%. On a coil shock, slide the bottom out bumper around instead of using an o-ring.
Happy trails!
H
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Inappropriate?Hey, thanks for the reply.
Well..first of all your right about the "3pl" ...it's not a "SPL"...my error.
I just checked my 3pl and it only has "locked" and "unlocked" on the lockout lever. I thought it had 3 positions also...but it doesn't. So from what I understand this 3pl shock doesn't have a "pedal platform" then? The TST models do?
This shock looks well lubricated. So I don't think that the minor sticktion that I'm getting is anything out of the norm when it comes to air shocks. I just wish I could get that "like butter" look and feel as my brother gets with the coil Manitou 3 way. I mean just drop the bike from a foot to 18 inches and it just soaks up the hit with no bounce at all.
I have to say that I don't want a pedal platform for this bike under any circumstances. This bike has a lot going for it (it's really to bad that the marketing of this bike wasn't better when it came out, because I think this bike is a gem in it's simplicity and performance) but I don't understand how MC can allow the range of shocks to be sold with this bike. This bike really needs a shock without platform damping and the correct valving. It seems like shock without the correct valving don't work correctly at all. It also seems like if you get a shock that works decent on a single pivot bike....it usually has the necessary adjustments to also work on a higher leverage bike ....but the reverse doesn't usually work the same way.
So Henry it looks like my 3PL doesn't have anything but Locked and Unlocked for it's lockout lever. So if the 3PL only has two positions on that lock lever...what the hell is the difference between the LO DC and the 3pl?
I'm going to throw this out there. I don't know if it's just me getting tired or if I'm actually feeling this, but I swear after I've been riding for awhile (maybe 3 miles or more) that my suspension feels harsher. Almost like the old motorcycle "suspension fade". This used to happen with motorcycle shocks as they heat up. To fix this issue they developed the "piggy back" remote reservoir. Well of course there is no remote reservoir on the 3pl... Have you ever experienced anything like that? Sometimes the suspension feels perfect the first mile or so and then it seems to get less plush. What's your thoughts on this one? I'm I just going mental...or is there something to this?
I should also mention that on the Fury, the 3PL's compression lever is just about useless. It seems like it's all or nothing. Maybe that's too harsh. The compression adjustment isn't like any other shock or suspension component I've ever used. The first and second click seemed to just be open with no difference in compression damping. The third click seems to make a difference but not in the traditional way you would expect compression adjustment to work. It seems to depend on the speed at which the shock is compressing to determine how much compression damping is is applied. If you push very slowly on the bike it seems like there is no change of compression damping, but if you push hard and fast it almost feels like it goes into semi-lockout mode. Because of this behavior...I just leave it open. I do All Mountain/Aggressive cross country riding. I ride this bike like I rode my Enduro motorcycle...fast and aggressive. A 23 pound cross country bike isn't going to cut it for me. I think that's why I'm so particular with this suspension thing. Most people just hope on a "full suspension" bike and leave it alone....some people don't adjust ANYTHING! That's blows me away....they have no clue what they could get for performance with a little tweaking.
It's really too bad that MC didn't work with Marzocci or some other suspension manufacturer to get the correct valving for the Fury. It makes all the difference. I know that as much as I hate Progressive suspension and their "efforts" to make mountain bike suspension products...they did work with Specialized to custom valve and size a Fifth Element Air shock for the Enduro in 2005 and it worked very well. Too bad it had proprietary mounts and the only other shock that would fit the Enduro was the Fox DHX air.
For some reason MC still isn't what you would call "Main Stream" when it comes to bikes. I think their products really are great and I'm very happy with the Fury. You never see their product tested in magazines or at any bike shops. Too bad...I think they (MC) deserve the publicity.
Chris
Some images
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Inappropriate?wow that finish is great. please tell
also like your shock mud splatter catcher
I’m jelous of leafyness
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Inappropriate?Hi Skeliz,
Ah thanks. Yeah lots of work to make it look like a factory finish. The shock mud guard was a must for an air shock. It's made out of sheet aluminimum. I actually made 3 of these guards. My two younger brothers also have Furys.
The bikes finish is a product made by 3M.
First the bikes original paint (red and natural aluminimum) were totally striped off with a "green" paint/powercoat remover.
The bike was totally disasempled.
Then templates were made of each "panel" of the bikes frame with lots and lots of layers of plastic food wrap and clear packing tape. after I had a nice thick layer I laid it out on the bike and trace the over area slightly on the weld marks on the frame. I cut it out and then transfered the outline to the material. Each peice on the bike is unique.
The new textured paint from Rust-o-leum in black and brown was used for all the welds and areas on the bike that I wasn't going to put the material...like the inside of the swingarm and the shell of the bottom bracket.
The paint was used in a camo like pattern so it blends well with the material.
Out of card stock I cut random shapes and layered these random patterns in different areas on the bike.
After the base paint was finished the material were "installed" in the area that they were cut for.
Then all the material was masked off except the last 16th to 8th of an inch around the perimiter of the material.
Again I got the paint and feathered all the edges of the materail with paint so the match was just about perfect.
This finish has been on this bike for 3 season now and it look just as good as the day I did it. I have MUCH better close ups of the different areas if you care to see them. Let me know if your interested or have any other questions.
This bike took about 2 weeks of solid work to get everything the way I wanted...but it was well worth it. It would most likely only take half that time if I had to do it again.
My brothers bike is also custom. Military like. He used this new paint from Rust-o-lumum. It's almost has a rubber like feel. Very durable stuff.
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Inappropriate?yeah more piks.. looks great.
was trying to work out if it was stuck on or airbrushed..very clever -
Inappropriate?Some links to other photos
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2545/3...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3444/3...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3466/3...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2449/3...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2650/3...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3548/3...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3526/3...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2607/3...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2430/3...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3428/3...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2602/3...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2527/3...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2525/3...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3545/3...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3535/3...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2662/3...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2591/3...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2654/3...
There is more of course but I think that should do it for the general look and feel of the bike
chris -
Inappropriate?holey fucking leafage batman. that is real good.
time spent for a proper unique finish well spent!!
thanks for shareing
p.s i love the the army style stamp inside the swing arm..friking class
soz to have to ask. but what shock you settled on now? im crap when it comes to reading and taking it all in.theres a lot to read there
i had an areo 2.r on mine but took it off as i had a couple foxes lying around and didnt realy go much on it
at the moment im using a fox rp23 but i not real had proper time to rag it.
notice you got the roco in one pic..
any good?
sorry again but my brain is allways fried and cant take in to much after work
i tattoo people all day.. they fry me
I’m so junglefied
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Inappropriate?Thanks Dude!...yeah lots of work but worth it...at least to me
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Inappropriate?to me too.. thought about airbrushing my san andreas when i had it in a biomech style.. im seriously thinking about doing it to me fury
aint airbrushed for years but i think with the right equipment i can pull it off..
now what shock ya using now.. im all piked on the front and love them (thanks to all that pushed me towards the pike!!) -
Inappropriate?Hey skeliz,
right now still using the Marzocchi 3PL. It' very good but not as good as my brothers Manitu 3way coil. His shock is better than all the shocks I've ever used. See the above post of all that info.
Air brushing would be really cool with lots of flexability...but what about the durability? This camo wrap is very very durable.
The Rock Shox Pikes are very very under rated. The ones on my bike are the Dual Air...no coil and not travel adjustment. I gave my other Pike "team" to my youngest brother.
The Pikes is very high quality and the best bang for the buck that I've see. I've a suspension nut. I know what I want and what I should get out of my suspension and the Pikes deliver.
Skeliz, it seems that no air shock can match the sudelties of a coil. No matter what I do on any air shock....as good as this 3PL is and as good as the Perl was...they still don't match that cheap Manitu 3way coil.
What SanAndreas do you have? The new DNA or the older one? I asked because I'm pretty sure that the older one uses a different position for the swingarm...which I believe that changes the ratio of the suspension...so it's hard for us to compare the Fury with the SanAndeas...in terms of an apple to apple comparison for the rear suspension.
Chris -
Inappropriate?i had a san an 2003? model not the dna had a coil vanilla r on it. was cool
i now run a fury with a fox rp23..still in testing. thinking about going coil on it -
Inappropriate?Well I came from the enduro (off road motorcycle) world and before that, motocross...so I know what I want in suspension. I have had good luck so far with the Marzoc. 3PL..which by the way is a good match for the Rock Shox Perl.
Also...remember that a just any coil shock won't work. Be careful because there a lots of coil shocks that a made for a high leverage suspension system. Like a four bar (Specialized and others). I have a Progressive Suspension 5TH Element coil. SUCKS. Very nice quality...but does not work on our low leverage Fury bike. The Fifth Element air worked...so so...but the quality was junk.
Skeliz, I was sooo close to getting the San Andreas. I would have...but at the last minute I saw the ad (then it was 2005) for the Fury. I remember it was the yellow one! It looked awesome. The reviews were very good so I gave it a shot. I'm glad I did.
My brother had a Specialized 2005 Enduro Expert. After issues with the shock (a custom Fifth Element air) and a proprietary mount for the shock that only can be fitted to a FoxDHX and that custom Fifth Element. He now has that Fury that you see above (the military one). After changing to the coil shock that I mentioned above, he says that it feels just like the Enduro did...more motorcycle like in it's handling.
When the suspension is tuned correctly...you feel like you can do anything...with less fatigue. That's really important to me.
Will the Fox Vanilla fit on the Fury?
chris -
Inappropriate?vanilla should fit the fury so long as its 190mm eye to eye
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Inappropriate?Dude!! That finish is sweet!! It's great to see someone who takes such pride in his ride.
I'd been away from this thread a few days so I want to play a little catch up by adding a few more thoughts on the shock discussion.
First, stop saying that the Fury is a low leverage bike. There are A LOT of 5" bikes that use 2" stroke shocks, Specialized included. As I said before the simplistic average leverage rate evaluation is travel divided by stroke which equals 2.5 to 1. That's for the Fury and every other bike with these numbers. What makes the difference is whether the rate is rising or falling or straight. The Fury is straight which means shocks without progressive compression damping or progressive spring rates will feel bad on the Fury. This bad feeling is compounded by "Platform" style shocks like the Fox propedal. Due to how the valving is built, once you manage to push through the platform, the shock feels like there's no compression damping, just straight rate coil until you hit the bottom out bumper. I've destroyed a wheel on a drop with this kind of setup (non-piggyback Vanilla R propedal) on the Fury. I too have felt the same shock perform much better on a four bar bike. This bike had a rising leverage rate which compensated for the lack of shock progressivity.
I don't have any riding experience with the Swinger or 5th Element, but I find it very interesting that you say they performed vastly different. As I understand it from working with one of the engineers that developed the 5th product line, the Swinger is pretty much identical internally to the 5th. Maybe all your 5th's were defective... but that's another story. That shock design has a progressive, position sensitive compression damper so it should, in theory feel pretty good on the Fury.
The dropping the rear of the bike to see if it sticks test... I've done that one too, and I can't really correlate that to good on trail performance. All that really tests is stiction at the topped out condition, your rebound speed, and how much your tires bounce. Air shocks and some coil shocks both will exhibit this tendency to bounce due to top end stiction. The real proof is how it reacts to fast, hard, repeated hits, and how it smooths out small ripples. In this respect, the Marz LO DC pretty much erases hits while failing the drop test. The Stratos could be set to pass or fail the drop test and also erased hits. The Van R passed the drop test and felt like crap.
LO vs 3pl: Well, the LO has rebound, lockout, and air pressure. The 3pl looks like it has that fourth adjustment which you say is the compression that doesn't work. So besides removing that non functional knob, I think they may have changed the valve configuration internally. That's all I can come up with if you aren't totally blown away with your shock. For instance, I don't feel the fade sensation you're reporting. Perhaps after a really long descent it's maybe a tiny bit stiffer, but not harsher. I attribute that to the heat buildup that increases the effective air pressure. Nothing I'd really complain about though since I can't feel it. I only know this because I measured travel a lot during the setup phase.
Yeah, I wish MC was more mainstream and had the volume to demand custom shock tuning. But then again, not having that means we're in much more exclusive company. Guys like us discussing how to make our bikes better is so much more interesting than a bunch of Specialized (for example) guys just assuming they've got the best in the world.
I'm totally with you on maximizing tuning and building it for reliability. Maybe we should ride together. Are you in SoCal?
I’m entertained
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Inappropriate?Hi Henry,
Thanks for setting me straight on this. I fully understand what you mean.
No...I'm in Rhode Island.
I agree with the MC non mainstream...it is a very exclusive ride...especially with my brother's and I, "special finish".
"I don't have any riding experience with the Swinger or 5th Element, but I find it very interesting that you say they performed vastly different. As I understand it from working with one of the engineers that developed the 5th product line, the Swinger is pretty much identical internally to the 5th. Maybe all your 5th's were defective... but that's another story. That shock design has a progressive, position sensitive compression damper so it should, in theory feel pretty good on the Fury."
Yes the Swinger and 5th coil are vastly different. Who knows though....I may have a bad 5th for all I know. All I can tell you is that the 5thcoil seems to run out of adjustments. I never really get to get the settings even close to what you would consider.."ridable". If the pressure in the air chamber is set to the min of 50lbs the shock knocks and has NO damping when faced with studder bumps. The spring rate is the correct one for my weight...It actually has more adjustments than any shock I've own..motorcycle or bike. Both compression (end of stroke and start of stroke) seem to no almost nothing in terms of a noticeable/usable change in performance. The "Progressive" adjust does nothing. The rebound does something...but the setting is waaaay to slow. Even with the rebound adjustment all the way on fast, it's still too slow. The suspension "packs up" because of it. The only way to get the rebound to work the way I would like it to is if I set the air "pedal platform" to less than 50lbs...but then the damping and knocking is all messed up....junk.
The Swinger is smooth like butter and has the range of adjustment that is need to tweak it to your riding preferences. To me, if the suspension can't be adjusted to the the extreme in either direction (to make it unridable) then it might not have the necessary adjustment to tweak it the way that I want. Lets face it...if you have to run the compress/rebound/gate all the way in one direction to get some decent performance then it's probably not the shock/fork for that bike.
Drop test..well that makes sense. We need more time on the Swinger to see what's really going on. This shock seems to almost eliminate small roots and other ripple bumps...and although my 3PL is good....it's not that good.
Hey what are you running for sag on you shock? Not in percentage but in ..say millimeters? -
Inappropriate?(Chuckling) Yeah... there were a lot of bad 5th Elements. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if yours was blown from the get go. There were some serious QC issues for a time. What you're describing though sounds like the rebound shim stack on the 5th was just inappropriately stiff for your weight/spring rate. By running the platform pressure so low, the position sensitive compression valve won't seat closed which would give both the lack of compression damping and an open free bleed in rebound (faster rebound). Just out of curiousity, did you ever pump up the the platform pressure to say 150psi? What did that do?
So educate me on this Swinger. What model and year is it? Is there a visible bottom out bumper on the shaft? Do you feel a harsh bottom out on said bumper? What pressure do you run in the platform chamber?
On your 3PL, what do you mean by "it looks well lubricated" (you wrote this 19 days ago and I just caught that... oops). Did you open your air can and see? There's nothing you can tell externally. I just made a tool to open mine and make sure.
On my Roco, I run about .5" (12.7mm) of sag. I've experimented down to .55" as well with still good results. It takes about 125psi for me to get to .5" sag and I weigh ~182 lbs when all geared up.
I’m enjoying this.
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Inappropriate?Hi Henry,
I haven't tried to pressurize the 5th coil to 150lbs...but I can try just to see if it forces the shims back where they belong. I never went below the min. pressure recommend on the label of this shock. I have seen a few bikes in our riding area using the Fifth coil...mostly on "four bar" type of suspension...no single pivot types. My luck never has been really good with products that actually work correctly the first time use them. I always seem to have to be put through the ringer to get a good one.
The Swinger does have the bumper on the shaft. Remember this is my brother's shock not mine. But the model is a 2005 and it's a "Swinger 3 way SPV". He has never felt this shock bottom out as of yet. I weight 140lbs, he weighs about 175lbs. He is running 70lbs in the platform chamber and has been experimenting with platform between 65 and 85lbs. So far he likes around 70lbs. The bike just "sits" better in corners and is very sensitive to the small suff as well as soaking up the big stuff. The exact model and year are tough to find out. There is nothing
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