Andrew Luecke's dashboard

G'day,

Just letting you know that I have forwarded this question directly to the developers (as Songbird actually has ways to be totally rebranded into your own player depending on how serious you wish to be). Hopefully there will be a response soon. ;)

G'day,

a) Google also shows the LHC will destroy earth, the monster cables produce amazing sound and that smoking doesn't cause night vision problems (smokers don't like getting told that). Oh, and there was a UFO landing the other day. Its like with the open source movement, the vast majority of people advocating that all source code should be open sourced, never actually touch the code. Its all good and said, until someone replaces your $500 monster cable with a coathanger and you don't notice.

b) But sure, lets google them anyway (2nd link of "asio blind audio test"):
Hydrogen Audio ASIO test
"First impressions were that the ASIO sounded noticeably muffled and lousy while the DS was clearer and cleaner." Note, his not using ASIO4ALL.

c) Lets google them again just to be sure: ASIO vs Itunes quick test (1st link of "asio blind audio test"):
I failed to tell them apart. I wanted to be able to hear a difference, but could I ? ... no, I couldn't. In theory I shouldn't have been surprised. This also has nothing to do with the quality of Martins system either, his Mackie monitors and Presonus firewire interface better his previous (more expensive) hifi setup.

So maybe you yourself should have googled ASIO blind test yourself... However, I have provided argument (a) which you can recycle to dispute (b) and (c) ;-) That being said, the links are irrelevent because many are probably from AGES ago (and so don't represent the state of the Windows 7, OSX or Linux Audio Stacks). First step should be to confirm users OWN results with themselves. Unfortunately, this thread is the only thread on the internet where this is difficult

d) Yes the science backs it up and states that theoretically, it sounds better. But clearly, you don't actually understand the purpose of ASIO. The point of ASIO is to provide low latency and reduce the distortion which accumulates over many recording (which is also why studios tend to use 192000khz, even though people can't hear past 30k). The "science" doesn't dictate whether or not people can noticeably hear the distortion over a single iteration of playback. Most people on hydrogen audio seem to be convinced that the difference can't be perceived (and nobody seems to be disagreeing with them). You may find the head-fi ASIO tests interesting, or you may just dispute it without ever performing a double blind test. Your choice...

e) The alarm bells start to ring when you have an idea which 38 people voted for, yet none are willing to run blind tests (I think only 1 person here did). The general response seems to be "Andrew's an idiot", yet, whilst everyone is willing to treat me as as a clueless idiot, nobody is willing to prove that I'm one. "I can hear the difference so I don't need to test" is how companies such as bose remain in business (they do release SOME good products like the Bose Aviation X, but damn). Ask yourselves what greats such as Richard Feynmann would do. Would they run a quick test and call it a true result, or would they ensure that the results were indisputable? I was a bit scared when running a frequency response test against my mate, its natural. Except, I came out on top by a significant margin, so you may surprise yourself. And also a bit when testing WASAPI. We all like to believe we are superhumans, we aren't.

f) What matters is an experience anyway. Some people find that boosting the bass improves their experience (good for them). If quality improves your experience, good for you too (but is it because your THINK its better quality so have a positive attitude, or really is?) Also, way to go taking the prologic argument out of context. I never said it produces better sound. I quite explicitly said it simply improves my EXPERIENCE. Even a monkey could tell that there is worse quality when using prologic, but I don't mind the slightly iffy sounding channels, because overall, it makes it more immersive. I never said everyone likes it that way, just me.

Please explain though why using Prologic make me any less understanding of "high quality audio reproduction"? Is it because those that don't enjoy their music the same way such as yourself don't enjoy music? Isn't that kind of prejudice? Or is it because people who use prologic are suddenly sapped of the ability to identify distortion in songs? Does it also mean that you appreciate music played live more than myself? So many questions. Clearly the price of ones speakers directly reflects their appreciation and ability to process sound.

g) The fact that a dozen people have stood up here and stated that they can hear the difference (some even believe between ASIO and WASAPI they can), without running blind tests I'd say is pretty good evidence about the effect of placebo's on Audiophiles. The problem is that reproduced quality has gotten so high with audio, that any difference is subconscious, which is where placebos have the greatest impact.

Also, lets face it, many "audiophiles" have coughed up serious money for accessories such as monster cables before, and thought they noticed the difference. Nobody likes to believe they can't tell the difference after spending a huge amount of money on something.

h) Finally, I'm not trying to argue if ASIO is great or not. I'm a neutral party. If it sounds better of course I'll vote for it (why wouldn't I want better sound quality for free). However, there is no proof on this thread, simply opinion...

Just my thoughts though. I am aware that I may not be the most popular person in this thread (because I ask too many questions), but I'd rather be unpopular and be inquisitive then support a technology blindly, without proving to myself its beneficial. On any other audio forum, blind tests/proof are common place, however here, its like draining blood from a stone. I'm actually getting called a complete idiot for not simply following the herd. As mentioned, I couldn't care less whether exclusive mode or shared mode is better or not. I'm simply helping you guys present a case for ASIO.

Anyway, I give up trying here. If you guys don't want to run audio tests, it doesn't affect me really, because if I can ever afford to complete my flight training and have money to throw away on a high end sound card, I'll perform blind testing myself before I decide to use ASIO full time. But please don't be surprised if POTI finally have resources to spare and performs their own blind tests before spending money and resources on asio support. Whether or not you guys prove it now, or they do before implementation has no difference. However, overwhelmingly proving it now could have a significant impact on the people voting for this idea and help it draw more attention.

Either way, Mike M has been legendary enough to develop a WASAPI plugin for you guys for free (if you want exclusive mode). Whether or not it improves your experience isn't for me to say (it might help, especially if your sound card drivers are dodgy). Seeing as with my "cheap speakers" and poor hearing I couldn't differentiate between the sound of a jet engine and a Mozart concert, I guess I'm simply not audiophile enough to have any opinion on Audio quality and whether or not this plugin will help. I wish you guys the best of luck though, and hope that WASAPI enhances your experience enough until ASIO support comes along.

G'day,

JH, great post btw :P

its just a common problem on Linux now (its due to bugs in the way the packages are designed apparently). Because I suspect what may be happening is that Songbird is segfaulting as it loads. But I am not 100% sure.

It is worth noting the team are working on a way to avoid the problems with these 2 packages though (they need to for video support probably, because they can no longer just blacklist everything).

G'day,

That may be due to another reason. Many users are discovering that unfortunately Ubuntu 9.10 is having compatibility issues (unfortunately, the big issue with Linux is that no effort goes into guaranteeing backwards compatibility). Its one reason why I am happily on Windows 7 again. Unfortunately, Linux also doesn't offer a universal packaging system :(

One thing you can try is to go to synaptic Package manager and remove gstreamer-python and libvisual. Hopefully that may fix the problem. Otherwise, the fix will be slightly more complicated.. :(

G'day,

M4A metadata tagging doesn't exist in 1.2.0. As mentioned, it was added in 1.3.0, however, 1.3 was never released as a final version. It will however be added in 1.4 which is due to be released very soon (by end of month probably).

Not really sure what to think of this (I'm community too). ID3 2.4 was established in 2000. There really isn't much excuse for not supporting it.

I'm just wondering if you guys have talked to Microsoft and other companies who don't support them about this?

Thanks for merging them...

G'day,

As mentioned, the sansa clip is mostly the same thing as an iPod shuffle (except it has a screen). It does also apparently have podcast support, and its small/cheap too.

Unfortunately though, iPod support will get WORSE everywhere, not better now, because Apple is now playing offensively/defensively to block everyone, so it takes an increasingly large amount of resources (and money) to support them (to a substandard level).

Furthermore:
1) Because of the way Apple is changing their iPod's, its actually believed that the newer iPod's (post-iPod Touch) may break DMCA laws in some countries.
2) If you do buy an iPod, you should assume that it will only be compatible with iTunes, because most 3rd party projects (including Songbird/POTI and even Rockbox) are no longer willing to spend exuberant resources on iPod support (which they can't do well anyway).
3) Companies can't reliably support the new iPod's. The iPod touch for instance requires iTunes Store access to upload App's. At the end of the day, its unlikely that Songbird will grab a high proportion of newer iPod users anyway..
4) Many users incorrectly see iPod support in their favorite players, and so wrongly believe their brand new iPod's will work (whilst they rarely do). Many then become highly agressive demanding support is added. Long term, encouraging users to buy iPod's isn't a good thing for anyone except Apple.
5) Many users seem to be judging projects by its iPod support exclusively. They forget that competing products might support many products which are sometimes more powerful, just as well as iTunes does the iPod.
6) It costs a lot of money to maintain even basic support. If you check every media players projects, they are flooded with support questions about the iPod's (so time is wasted on support), and their bugzilla is full of iPod compatibility issues (so developers are often tied up fixing iPod problems, which aren't as easy to fix as other players protocols).

POTI are officially offering two-way sync with iTunes as a solution, but not sure if that appeals to you (I guess you'd have to try it).

I guess only time can tell if its the right way of handling it (I suspect projects such as Winamp are going the same path too with the new iPod's). It does appear to be though, because purple rain isn't the only major announcement expected in 1.4, and development does seem to have accellerated dramatically (which could be due to more resources).

It isn't for me to say if iPod's are the device for you (it used to be, because I used to work at an Apple premium reseller/Applecentre), and I guess the only advice I can give is to assume iTunes is the only player that will support it. If an iPod is what you need, and using iTunes for syncing isn't a problem, then thats what you should do. People should buy what they need ;)

Or they should simply win it, which is how I got my ipod shuffle :P

Andrew

G'day,

I actually spoke to one of the developers the other day, and his apparently cooking up a way to handle linux better. Although, personally, I don't think the POTI team can be exclusively blamed for the Linux problems. Linux has serious standardisation issues that realistically makes it difficult to support unless the company packages applications themselves.

I'd possibly expect a more reliable solution in 1.6 (the version due in feb, but I am speculating) as its too late to be added to 1.4 now (due in the next 2 or 3 weeks). Its also worth noting that many problems are actually caused by dodgy stuff/known bugs libraries like Libvisual aren't meant to be doing.

Personally, I can hardly wait for the official fix to be put into place because it saves me a lot of responses. It may also be worth talking to the Ubuntu development team though to get Songbird officially packaged...

G'day,

I own a second gen too, and tbh, I use Winamp for iPods, because it supports automatic transcoding too (Songbird does for other devices, just not the iPod's). But you'd be nuts to by a newer iPod. Nothing except iTunes now supports the new iPod's well (because Apple is locking them down now). MUCH better devices such as the Sansa clip are cheap, and are significantly better (and supports more formats too). They aren't locked down and work in any other program.

Or consider buying an Android mobile instead (they use MSC so should work with mostly anything too).

The current generation of ipod's are becoming much less likely to be widely supported by anything other then iTunes..

(Btw, I don't work for POTI. My iPod shuffle I got free, which is why I'm using it. However, I do plan to use an android mobile instead in the future, when I finally have a good enough job to afford stuff).

I will add that it does show why something like this is necessary though. The best of show (Me.dium) is a year old and hasn't been updated since 0.6. So its important we develop ways to ensure that more plugins are supported for a longer time (or are included in core)

I didn't even know that existed actually :P

That's good news and probably better then my way anyway ;)

Just remember as mentioned, that 1.4 is considered a really major release (probably the second biggest stable release since 1.0), and it might be worth keeping your eye on it on the blog on the songbird website (its due quite soon).

Also, just a tip, some users aren't aware that watched folders is different to Media management. On 1.2, I probably couldn't recommend enabling media management (only on 1.4), but i certainly recommend making use of watch folders. A proper warning is added in 1.4 so that users don't mistake the two (just don't want you to make the same mistake some others did).

G'day,

For those that are organised, it does work perfectly (I do agree). But unfortunately, for newbies, many may be confused by the dodgy album art.

Just wondering which version of Songbird you are using.. It's possible the album art dialog is only available 1.4 (which is still not officially stable). 1.2 is the latest stable version though

G'day,

Had a few people with this issue actually.. Its very rare, and simply happens sometime (could be a browser/OS bug causing it, like windows might lock the file whilst indexing it or something).

Maybe give downloading it from IE a try (or another installed browser). Works every time.. You could also try emptying the history and caches for Firefox too, but the safest way is to try another browser.

Let me know how it turns out..

Keep in mind also, Songbird 1.4 is hopefully around the corner and is an ENORMOUS improvement over 1.2. It includes transcoding, cd ripping, good device support, new theme, friendlier errors, cleaned up music management, more reliable playback, etc).

G'day,

Actually, I discussed this issue AGES ago with a few of the Songbird developers, and I recall (I might be wrong, remember, I am community too) that the reason it doesn't fetch the album covers from Folder.jpg, automatically by default, is because people mismanage the folder.jpg file (which is true, I've seen it myself, people throw mp3's into 1 folder and they all share the wrong album art as a result).

However, you can change this behavior from: tools, options, album artwork, and prioritise the file fetcher.


Personally, though, it works fine for me with the amazon fetcher and such, but then again, I don't personally really notice the album art.

Thats just me...

To be honest, I'd rather see Linux fix their task list to allow its icons to contain flexible menus first.

The reason the notification area is abused, is because "Linux desktops are doing it wrong", and so 3rd party developers have no choice except to abuse standards to provide a streamlined experience.

Actually, the extended community promise should probably instead be designated as S2010XCP.. this makes more sense..