BUFULO's dashboard

Another thing... maybe watch that video clip in the "Doubles Issue" thread & ask yourself "why would the software choose incorrectly?" in that case. The answer is because the valid tap time window overlaps AND the valid tap target areas overlap.

Given that Apple probably doesn't provide enough details (latency specifications) or the proper tools to analyze the timing to the degree truly necessary, the only way to fix the issue for once & all is to eliminate overlapping tap time windows & probably overlapping tap targets too.

Each touch event has an associated data structure with a field defining the area touched. It would be the apps responsibility to define a point or anything else it wants to from that information. I think the evidence clearly shows they are not using the center of the touch area. I have no idea exactly what they do use though.

The super simple solution I proposed is guaranteed to work all the time, every single time, regardless of whether or not tap areas or time windows overlap! It's so simple that I suspect there is more to the story (because I don't think the engineers at Tapulous are idiots).

I sincerely hope the only reason for overlapping target areas is to make game play easier! – BUFULO, on October 20, 2009 01:24

Understanding the valid tap time/window is absolutely KEY to this issue! Guarantee you know what it is but you just haven't given the entire issue enough thought.

As I'm sure you're aware, if you tap a little early or a little late yet, it will still register (not miss). Define the valid tap time window as any point in TIME where you can tap without a miss. With a little thought, you'll see that this presents a problem for the case of side-by-side or alternating tappers.

I provided video evidence of the issue in Ceegers thread regarding the "Doubles Issue." At the time, I wasn't even convinced this problem existed & actually thought I captured a simple dropped tap. Ceegers had a keen eye & noticed that the video indeed proved the tap target areas overlap. After that, I examined more video & saw that this was the reason for most of the dropped taps I experienced when my device was otherwise functioning normally (not too long after a Backup & Restore)

Define "tapping dead center!" Anyone with fairly normal size fingers/thumbs can tap "dead center" in a lane & still contact a portion of the evil "overlap" zone!

The key point is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the software to correctly determine which tap was "correct" when the tap time windows overlap AND tap areas overlap (and you contact the overlap area)! It seems to default "left." Think about it more & you'll understand. – BUFULO, on October 20, 2009 00:49

My camera uses AVI format & I use Roxio VideoWave for basic editing on a PC. Sorry, I don't have a Mac. I thought those came with everything you need to do that sort of thing? – BUFULO, on October 20, 2009 00:28

mashgotcash, re-read what you just wrote - out loud. It's nonsense, especially the first 2 sentences! :) You are also assuming the software can make the "correct" decision when the only truly correct decision is to accept the tap for when & where it is!

Your last sentence is so wrong! What about the case where the valid tap TIME overlaps as well? Overlapping target areas simply will NEVER work properly as long as overlapping valid tap time windows are also allowed!

krohn7master, did the version with non-overlapping targets compare the geometric centers of the tap target to the geometric center of the area passed in the touch event data structure? I bet not. This is would be the best way to do this in my opinion. It would have the additional benefit of being LESS CPU intensive than the current scheme. I do work as a consultant if Tapulous needs some help. – BUFULO, on October 19, 2009 23:04

Define "correctly." How is it correct to tap in one lane & have it register in another? If you can't tap in the lane where the tapper is, that's obviously a dropped tap. Heck, why not have one giant lane?

I suppose it's more "fun" to get higher scores, but I'd rather earn them with accurate timing AND accurate tap position. Overlapping tap targets rewards inaccurate tappers! – BUFULO, on October 19, 2009 22:22

I've done this in the past. You'll probably find that the overlapping tap target issue is causing most of your drops (it is for me) when your device is working well otherwise. There are still times where taps are just outright not recognized (on even the slowest, super easy songs where it's totally obvious).

I'll probably take some more video when I have more time & patience. My stupid digicam only takes 30 seconds at a time at a frame-rate fast enough to see the issue. It also takes a fair amount of time to get the light right (dark room seems best) & transfer/edit the video clips. It's also not as easy playing with a stupid camera in front of you & trying not to move out of the video frame area. Not really worth the time for me anymore since I've done it enough to know what the problems are. – BUFULO, on October 19, 2009 21:57

Worse how? My guess would be the testers got better scores with the zones overlapping. Maybe everyone would be better served by learning to tap more accurately & just accepting that the insanely hard/fast songs are just not going to be possible for everyone to FC or do well at?

Again, this sort of thing should be totally trivial to have as a user-selectable option. It would simply change the numbers when comparing the touch event bounds with the tap zone bounds. Totally trivial & would have zero effect on performance otherwise.

Any chance I could get a version with the non-overlapping tap targets? I doubt it. I suppose someone out there could jailbreak & take a hex editor to the code. Those bounds should just be a constant somewhere in the executable. Might be tricky to find though. – BUFULO, on October 19, 2009 21:50

Until you've tried playing without overlapping tap zones, how will you ever know? Maybe that is exactly the "happy medium" you seek. – BUFULO, on October 19, 2009 21:36

Ahhh... so it's all about you? The rest of us suffer because you can't tap accurately? :) – BUFULO, on October 19, 2009 21:03

I don't disagree that it would happen more online due to latency issues in the WIFI system - whether that be the player's internet hardware, device, or Tapulous servers.

I'm not familiar with other games or how they work with online play, but I've been around this business (real-time software) long enough to know that the same issues really don't apply to a game like TTR. At least they don't have to.

The device/server interaction is not critical to gameplay with TTR. In other words, a delay in a "message" delivery communicated between the 2 has (shouldn't have) no bearing on the next tap, the next not, the song play, etc.

However, these communications do more heavily use the Apple OS networking system & memory (protocol stacks, buffers, etc.) & also increase error handling tasks. These things will increase the latencies I've talked about elsewhere, which will cause more instances of dropped taps & other performance issues (graphics lagging, for example).

There are lots of ways networking taxes the app, OS, & hardware. None of them are good for performance. WIFI especially sucks with respect to power draw on an already heavily taxed device playing TTR.

frbbl, try playing on 3G with WIFI turned off to see if that helps. That's if you're lucky enough to have 3G service where you are playing! Not me! – BUFULO, on October 19, 2009 21:01

Yes, that's exactly what I mean & you've acknowledge this was by design in the past. I suspect this single (bad) design choice is responsible for a large percentage of the "dropped taps" reports.

The real question is why do this at all? I have no problem with a tap dropping if I miss the tap zone slightly but I do have a problem with a tap registering in a lane I did not touch! I'm willing to be the majority of players would agree with me on this issue.

I'm pretty certain this could be made a user-selectable option pretty easily if someone at Tapulous thinks it's an important feature to have. No idea on Earth why someone would want this behavior though. – BUFULO, on October 19, 2009 20:51

These are all good suggestions that do help reduce how often you'll miss taps, but really don't address the root cause. Try doing a Backup & then restore your device from that Backup in iTunes. I bet that helps FAR more! – BUFULO, on October 19, 2009 20:47

"Dropped Taps are either human error, or confusion in the Apple OS. I have confirmed it."

What about taps in one lane registering in an adjacent lane? – BUFULO, on October 19, 2009 20:38

Define "performance issues" & explain why those issues would only apply to online play & only online play. Good luck. – BUFULO, on October 19, 2009 19:57

Videos are pretty time-consuming to make. Why don't you try playing on a non-jailbroken 3GS enough to go from say whatever level it starts you out at to about level 30 or so. During that time, you must also download a new song here & there. I guarantee there are file/memory related issues causing dropped taps & you WILL realize it if you do this.

If not, explain why simply freeing memory, not the amount of memory that is actually free, improves performance? Also, why does disabling Auto Brightness improve performance? I have consistently been able to "revive" a poorly performing device by Restoring from Backup. Explanation? Regarding jailbreaking. Are you aware that Cydia messes with the file system organization? This means that simply installing Cydia could have benefits.

All these things improve performance by decreasing the latency to touch events being time-stamped. There are a number of reasons for this, but I strongly suspect memory management & file system issues would be near the top of the list. So the real question is not "if", but how large is that latency. I doubt Apple publishes specifications on OS latencies, but I do know that ANYTHING that reduces usage of these systems (RAM and/or FLASH) will increase performance & reduces dropped taps. – BUFULO, on October 19, 2009 19:53

Yup. I didn't really notice this being a problem until I tried playing outdoors once this weekend. Pretty much impossible to see the arrows unless you turn the screen brightness WAY up.

A lighter color seems like a pretty simple solution.

Anybody else notice that the timing of the arrows seems to be slightly changed from TTR2? Seems like I have to delay by "swing" at arrows in the center lane to get them to register green. The side lanes seem normal & the same. – BUFULO, on October 19, 2009 19:47

Sure, the dropped taps have an explanation. SOFTWARE BUGS!

Every video of mine where I've lost my streak, I can tell you exactly what happened. Sometimes it was my fault & I missed. Other times taps are recognized or are recognized in the adjacent lane resulting in a miss in the lane I actually tapped in.

Tapping early, restarting, rebooting, or restoring shouldn't be acceptable solutions! – BUFULO, on October 19, 2009 19:33

I'm not familiar with that particular song, but in general, the dropped taps stuff is a real issue. It gets worse over the course of about a week for me at which point I do a Backup & Restore. After that, I suddenly find myself FCing songs & making leaderboards. Definitely NOT a coincidence. Definitely bugs.

Most of the time you'll find it happens when there are simultaneous tappers or strings of them alternating in adjacent lanes. It seems most likely related to the overlapping tap target issue or whatever you want to call it where taps in one lane register in the adjacent lane.

There also seems to be some sort of issue related to the time you contact the screen. I suspect the handling touch events (something to do with a touch being released, i.e., finger removed) & background tasks are involved.

I also bet that jailbroken phones experience both these issues far less often than non-jailbroken. – BUFULO, on October 19, 2009 19:28