fdfisher's dashboard

Ha! That's an ironic twist of fate. I spent 15 minutes looking for a way to get to the spam filter and un-spam your comment, but as far as I can tell, there's no way to do this in Blogger. Stupid Google, controlling my information. I'll look into this again later this week when I have some time again. – fdfisher, on August 05, 2009 05:25

Awesome Laura! Thank you! – fdfisher, on August 03, 2009 14:06

@Michael Purses

That's an interesting possibility that I hadn't considered. I hope you're right. :-) – fdfisher, on August 02, 2009 15:44

Here's an update to this GetSatisfaction thread which I think is relevant:

POTI announced on their blog that the first Beta was available for Jackson 5, and a couple of users (Jigar shah & "Linux user") commented that they were disappointed that MSC would be Windows only. Since there is already a discussion about this topic here on GetSatisfaction, I tried to respond to their comments and point them here. Instead, my comments never appeared on the blog. In total, I tried posting them 4 different times from 2 different computers so the only explanation I can come up with is that the folks at POTI decided to censure my comments.

In particular, the comments were as follows:

First Comment:

@Jigar shah

"May be their stats are showing 90% windows..!!"

You're not the only one frustrated by the fact that MSC is windows only. I've started a discussion on getsatisfaction about how the Songbird customer service policy is currently a self fulfilling prophecy. When Linux and Mac users have to wait significantly longer than windows users to get the same, basic features, they look elsewhere for a different media player. As a result, there are a fewer Linux and Mac users browsing getsatisfaction and chiming in with suggestions/requests. Hence, the windows users' requests are heard even louder than before, and the next release is even more focused on them. Over time, this means that Songbird's user base is almost entirely windows users.

But that's bad for everyone because we want Songbird to be a broad, open platform. That's why I've suggested that POTI choose one minority-requested feature to focus on each release; to give balance to their customer service policy and broaden their user base.

Second Comment:

@Linux user

I would add to your question, why is Songbird censuring my posts to the blog? I've now posted 3 times a response to Jigar shah's comment, pointing out that I've started a discussion on Getsatisfaction about how Songbird's customer service policy is a self-fulfilling prophecy. In particular, I try to address this issue, the fact that Linux users and OS/X users are required to wait sometimes as much as over a year for the same features that Windows users receive. The way things work now, the user group that screams the loudest gets what they want. Since there are more windows users, that means they get the features they want before everyone else. Then, more Linux and Mac users get fed up, stop using Songbird, and stop following the blog, etc. Next release cycle, the Windows users' voices are louder. The end result is that Songbird's community is very homogeneous.

I also tried to make both my blog post and my getsatisfaction post as constructive as possible, offering a potential solution to this problem. I suggested that the Songbird team pick one feature each release that caters to a minority user-group such as Linux or Mac. This would help balance the customer service policy, but wouldn't totally derail the team from focusing on their main audience.

I didn't necessarily expect the Songbird team to take up my idea, but I was definitely shocked to see that an open source software project would censure posts on their blog. But hey, you probably won't read this post because I'm sure they will censure this one as well.

Needless to say, this is a pretty sad state of affairs. For more information, you can read this.

"We'll see what POTI will do after the release this fall, that should bring cd ripping and podcast, if I remember correctly... I hope their next moves will then be for Linux and Macs, and universal MSC support.
But before that, their resource will focus on the main population."

Most of the features planned in the release this Fall were supposed to land a long time ago, like last Fall, but they got put off again and again. I don't think those features will be done when the Roadmap says they will be. Already, the Jackson 5 release is behind. But either way, the features you're talking about, CD ripping, MSC support, etc., those are all Windows only. Which is exactly my point. Why should I invest time and energy into a product that from a Linux standpoint, hasn't really advanced in the last 6 months and isn't supposed to get new features for over a year? A year is a long time.

Also, you seem to be interpreting my argument to say that Songbird should prioritize Linux or OS/X over Windows. I am not suggesting that the Songbird team prioritize Linux or OS/X over Windows or that they even give them the same level of attention as Windows. But I do think they need to balance their priorities or else they self-select themselves into a narrow community of users. A good way to do this is to commit to working on one (out of like 6) features that are being championed by a smaller community. It's check and balance on the dictatorship of the majority. Remember, I said: "I propose that the team create a system to recognize and implement one minority feature request each release in addition to the 5 or 6 majority feature requests which already get attention."

"All that being said, I share your concern about low-end hardware, that is totally true. But progressively, such hardware will be replaced and meet SB standards...I know, I'm part of those, and I also know I will have to wait for my next hardware to take full advantage of SB. But in the meantime, I'm trying to help SB development by testing it on a better hardward at work :)"

The trend right now is not faster hardware; it's smaller and more energy efficient hardware. In fact, the only growing segment of the computer industry right now (as far as I know) is netbooks, which are tiny computers that run so slow they can't always play YouTube videos. The computers of tomorrow are not computers as we know them; they're hand held devices like iPhones and Android phones, MIDS, netbooks, e-readers, etc. Maybe in 3 years those computers will be as fast as our desktops, but in the meantime, most software manufacturers are trying to slim down their software so it can run on slower hardware and thus be more portable. I don't think you can rely on the hardware to "catch up" to your software; nor is it a good model for software development. – fdfisher, on July 20, 2009 21:11

Sure, as I said above, an entire release cycle was devoted to syncing with iTunes. This was considered a sort of compromise, best-we-can-do way to satisfy the uproar of complaints that Songbird does not sync with iPods. But there are thousands of other portable music players whose manufacturers have not used draconians methods to keep 3rd party platforms from supporting them. Anyone using any of these devices has been forced to wait for Songbird to support their portable media player while this half-assed support for iPods was implemented. So the first demographic which I would say has been left-behind is non-iPod users.

2nd demographic: Linux and Mac users. Now that iTunes syncing has been completed, the team is finally working on a mass storage class to support these other devices. While it's listed on the roadmap as "mass storage class," (as though anyone could use it) if you read more closely, it's only being developed for Windows. One of Songbird's developers who uses OS/X is working on getting it going on Macs, but even that effort is not supposed to be officially supported in the release, and it "hasn't been determined yet" when Linux support will be added. When I pressed the Songbird team on this issue in the blog, they wouldn't even commit to adding Linux support within a year. In other words, Linux users may have to wait over a year longer than everyone else to get a basic feature such as a mass storage class. The reason why they are not implementing it in Linux is equally smug and inconsiderate; I was told that "It's non-trivial to port it to other platforms, and we don't currently have the resources to extend it to the Linux platform." I assume it was non-trivial to write the mass storage class in the first place for Windows users but they somehow found the resources to get this done.

3rd demographic: Users with low-end hardware. The Songbird team claims that Songbird has a smaller memory footprint and a faster startup time than iTunes, but that is only true when Songbird is installed without any add-ons. iTunes has a plethora of features that Songbird does not, many of which you have to install an add-on to get in Songbird. If you include all the add-ons necessary to get all the features in Songbird that iTunes has then I doubt it boots faster or users a smaller memory footprint than iTunes. And iTunes is an awful bloated program that runs slow and takes forever to boot. There are a lot of people looking for a more lightweight alternative to iTunes, and I don't think Songbird has really delivered in this department. They used to devote a large part of their release cycle to lowering the memory footprint and improving performance, but lately, it's been an afterthought at best. Basically, performance was brought down to the point where it was acceptable on high-end machines like desktops and fast laptops. If your computer is not that fast, then you're just out of luck.

I'm sure there are other demographics that feel they have been left-behind, but these are just the ones that I know most personally. Like I said above, I don't expect to get all my wishes granted, but I think it's ultimately bad for everyone if Songbird just cators to a single audience. – fdfisher, on July 20, 2009 17:12

Yes, once the really big features on the roadmap are implemented then I too hope that some of the more innovative features can be offered, but I actually think the Songbird team is pretty generous in supporting innovative features. In fact, those are features that all of us want. I was thinking more about features that some people want but the majority of users don't really care about. For example, an en entire release cycle was used to develop a system to sync iTunes and Songbird. This was basically a response to the fact that a lot of iPod users were complaining that Songbird wouldn't sync with their iPods. But I run Songbird in Linux where iTunes doesn't even exist, and I also don't own an iPod. This feature is useless to me. Meanwhile, features that I passionately care about (CD ripping, podcasting, video support, mass storage class) were all delayed a release to satisfy this particular demographic. I'm glad that the Songbird team are listening to their users, but I think it's a bad policy to always neglect smaller user groups such as Linux users or people without iPods in order to make the majority of the users happy. The effect of this is that the windows users with iPods who were already the majority of Songbird users get yet another feature that they want and everyone else is forced to wait longer. By the time the next release cycle rolls around, the Windows users with iPods represent an even larger proportion of Songbird's users and their requests further cry out the requests of others. In the end, this does not make Songbird a broad, open platform for browsing media in the same way that say Firefox has become a broad, open platform for browsing the web.

One last note (because I want this to be clear): I mention Windows users with iPods because from GetSatisfaction and the Songbird Blog and everywhere else, that seems to be the vast majority of Songbird users. But I don't mean to demonize them. I don't care what OS other people use or what portable media player. I just want Songbird to be the best platform it can be, and the way I see it going, it's becoming more and more tethered to a particular audience and a particular user base. In the end, that's not good for anyone. – fdfisher, on July 20, 2009 16:53

Thank you for answering the question. And yes, I would be interested in seeing it implemented as well. It's kind of frustrating to be using the operating system that say > 90% of the open source developers use and then see an open source project like this one treat us like we don't matter. It just doesn't seem like you have the open source community in mind. I know you have limited resources, but it's very frustrating to hear that you will be writing new features for other platforms BEFORE you "extend" current features to this one. And of course it's "non-trivial" to port a feature to another platform. What does that even mean anyways? I would assume that it was also non-trivial to write the original implementation for Windows, but you did it anyways. Apparently, Linux users are only good enough for "trivial" work. :-( – fdfisher, on July 13, 2009 12:53

@boosh, stevo

This definitely fixed the problem. Thanks so much for restoring my faith in Songbird! And keep up the good work! – fdfisher, on April 29, 2009 03:58

Hey boosh,

This is great news! I did not realize you all were working on this/these issues. I will definitely try the latest nightly and see if it's fixed. Thanks so much! And thanks also to stevo who I know develops/maintains half a million add-ons, a tremendous task for anyone. – fdfisher, on April 28, 2009 00:17

Songbird team, will this bug be fixed in the new release? Is there a way we can help see it get squashed sooner? (I'm looking for a suggestion that is not "submit your own patch")? 20 different people have now tagged this problem as one they have. I know 20 people is a microcosm of your users but not all of the people with this problem have bothered to log onto getsatisfaction and report it!