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Mark replied on October 17, 2008 08:27 to the question "Programeter vs. Hackystat" in Programeter:
Hi Philip,
Thanks for your notes and feedback. I would be very interested to chat with you about how Programeter and Hackystat are similar or complimentary.
btw, you have marked this as a question. Is there anything specific you want us to answer?
Mark-
Mark asked a question in fring on August 31, 2008 19:04:
I can't install fring on my iPhoneI can't install fring on my iPhone. Installer says "Please input the valid source URL above to add the source" - but I have entered http://fring.com/iphone.xml as the guide said. Can you help me? -
Mark replied on August 23, 2008 00:01 to the question "May I see how the application works" in Programeter:
Yes, it is possible to do FREE evaluation. Please, fill in the form and leave your contacts at http://www.programeter.com/demo
One of our team members will get in touch with you very soon. -
Mark asked a question in Programeter on August 23, 2008 00:01:
May I see how the application works@programeter Thanks, May I see how the application works. Is there any demo in the site. -
Mark started a conversation in Programeter on July 31, 2008 03:09:
Programeter Value in Offshore Software ProjectsLast week I have been meeting lots of software companies who use offshore service providers in India, China and Eastern Europe. The most common feedback I have got from them is the lack of visibility into what is happening in their far-away teams.
I would like to encourage you to share your ideas and experience on how you have used Programeter to handle the visibility problem. -
A comment on the discussion "Discussion about value of automated measurement" in Programeter:
my comment was related to your argument that programmers don't reject performance-measurement idea – Mark, on July 08, 2008 05:34 -
A comment on the question "http://www.programeter.com/ is some kind of joke, right?" in Programeter:
adrianb, Programeter is not about evaluating correctness of the programm. It is about collecting indicators about programmers themselves. – Mark, on July 07, 2008 14:07 -
Mark replied on July 07, 2008 14:04 to the discussion "Discussion about value of automated measurement" in Programeter:
"Programmers hate the idea ... not because they reject performance-measurement but, like anyone else, they want their performance to be assessed by what they actually work with. Programmers produce *ideas*, algorithms, abstractions, architectural patterns, mathematical entities. That's the criteria they want to be judged by. "
Considering the fact that most negative comments came from those who never tried our Programeter, I would not agree with you. It seems to me that just the idea of performance measurement is very provocative and generates lots of emotions.
We are helping lots of managers already, and they feel more informed with our indicators than without. So early enough warning, as you said, is something very valuable. -
Mark replied on July 07, 2008 13:53 to the discussion "Discussion about value of automated measurement" in Programeter:
"Seriously Mark. Wouldn't it be much smarter just to have a good manager of the programmers who actually talks to them every day about what they're doing and has a pretty good understanding of what it is and how things are going? That's early enough warning if things are starting to go wrong. "
Yes, good manager is a good choice. But it is not always possible. Following could be the reasons for that:
* Additional managers are expensive. Especially if manager is "good"
* Not all managers have programmer background. So sometimes they need tools to help them out to understand what has really been done
* Managers and developers are often located in different offices, city or even countries. It makes it very difficult to meet developers on daily basis. Personally I have participated in project like this, and I have met my project managers once per few months.
So what you describe is an ideal case. But unfortunately, not all software is developed in ideal worlds. -
Mark replied on July 04, 2008 09:29 to the discussion "Discussion about value of automated measurement" in Programeter:
"The fact that you're gathering the measurements described above, and the fact you say they make program managers "smarter" suggests to me that you consider them to be genuinely informative of something. So you can't in the next breath turn around and say : but it's ok, "there is still human with brains evaluating the reports we provide".
Either those brains are ignoring the metrics (in which case the whole thing is pointless) or the brains are taking them as important evidence (which is what I'm disputing.) "
those brains can also take metrics as call to action. For example, if you see suspicious metrics, you pay additional attention to code review. And there are more examples where metrics can lead you to very important decisions -
Mark replied on July 04, 2008 09:25 to the discussion "Discussion about value of automated measurement" in Programeter:
"Activity (I'm guessing, frequency of checkins)"
wrong guess. Activity is measured by times developer has done non-zero changes into the code components. -
Mark replied on July 04, 2008 09:22 to the discussion "Discussion about value of automated measurement" in Programeter:
"I'm going by what I've read on your web-site. If you want to tell me more about the details of the measurements you take and what you interpret from them, then I'll make a better assessment. "
we can arrange you a trial to better assess the Programeter metrics. Please, contact me directly for that. -
Mark started a conversation in Programeter on July 04, 2008 08:17:
Discussion about value of automated measurementAs the questions has turned into a discussion, I will move it here:
"Mark,
I'm going by what I've read on your web-site. If you want to tell me more about the details of the measurements you take and what you interpret from them, then I'll make a better assessment.
But, like I say, it certainly sounds from your site that four of the metrics are : Contribution Size ("amount of code"), Activity (I'm guessing, frequency of checkins), Complexity ("McCabe's Cyclomatic") and Density of Comments (ratio of comments to code). These are the are ones I've been discussing previously. And I still claim that there is no way on earth that, given these metrics for two programmers, independent of having some corresponding metrics of the *problem* that's being solved, you can assess which programmer was "better" or "more productive".
(And given that the site says : "Decide the value of programmer instantly, based on his contributions" ... it certainly sounds like you're claiming you can do that.)
The other metrics like "measurement of know-how" I haven't commented on because I honestly can't imagine what they really mean or how you'd measure what I think of as "know-how". Again, I'll be fascinated to know more.
The fact that you're gathering the measurements described above, and the fact you say they make program managers "smarter" suggests to me that you consider them to be genuinely informative of something. So you can't in the next breath turn around and say : but it's ok, "there is still human with brains evaluating the reports we provide".
Either those brains are ignoring the metrics (in which case the whole thing is pointless) or the brains are taking them as important evidence (which is what I'm disputing.)
cheers
phil
BTW : One thing I give you kudos for : having the courage to link this discussion from your site. Well done on that." -
Mark replied on July 03, 2008 20:34 to the question "http://www.programeter.com/ is some kind of joke, right?" in Programeter:
Interstat,
In general, I agree that there is no way to give creativity one measure. But we don't try to do that. Instead we give different level of management additional information for their decisions.
What is important to understand is that manager with Programeter metrics is much smarter than manager without those. Don't forget that there is still human with brains evaluating the reports we provide. So if somebody cheets, it can bee understood easily. -
Mark replied on July 03, 2008 19:15 to the question "http://www.programeter.com/ is some kind of joke, right?" in Programeter:
Hi Adrian,
I appreciate your comment. To make my comment useful for others too, I will try to skip your emotions and address important topics.
* "All these metrics seem, as described, easy to game" - You can't claim so untill you have done so. There were many programmers who tried to trick our algorithms. But that cheating was clear from the reports.
* "The best developers often spend large amounts of their time removing code" - that is very good comment. Which actually proves that our metrics are usefull. We have never claimed that lots of code is good ;)
* " By measuring the "amount of code produced" this looks unproductive!" - We don't measure just amount of code produced. We measure a set of metrics which all together bring a objective enough picture on what has been done by programmer.
If you would like to dispute on any of those topics, I would appreciate if you start a separate topic. I would be happy to answer all your questions.
Btw, if you would like to try out our service to make your claims more reputable - give me a note. -
Mark replied on July 03, 2008 13:39 to the question "http://www.programeter.com/ is some kind of joke, right?" in Programeter:
Not at all :)
We are very serious about what we do here. And there are numerous customers who are also very serious about what we do ;)
Mark -
Mark asked a question in Programeter on July 03, 2008 13:39:
http://www.programeter.com/ is some kind of joke, right?huh? http://www.programeter.com/ is some kind of joke, right? -
Mark marked one of Anton Litvinenko's replies in SourceKibitzer as useful. Anton Litvinenko replied to the question "How to give read-only access for root of the Subversion repository?".
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Mark started following the question "What are the technical requirements to start using SourceKibitzer EyeQ service?" in SourceKibitzer.
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Mark started following the idea "Maybe the site name should be changed to Get Satisfaction." in Get Satisfaction.
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