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Nigel Eccles replied on April 08, 2008 23:27 to the discussion "Proposed new procedure for dealing with gaming" in Hubdub:
Result of vote here: http://getsatisfaction.com/hubdub/top...
Nigel Eccles replied on April 08, 2008 23:26 to the question "Proposed new procedure for dealing with gaming (part 2)" in Hubdub:
Result of vote here: http://getsatisfaction.com/hubdub/top...
Nigel Eccles replied on April 08, 2008 19:28 to the question "Proposed new procedure for dealing with gaming (part 2)" in Hubdub:
Nigel Eccles asked a question in Hubdub on April 08, 2008 19:22:
Result of the voteOver the past 24 hours we have received votes on the question of what action we should take with regards Satyaki. The votes are now all in and counted.
In total we had 25 verified votes. The final votes were:
Option 1: fine of H$8,300 - 0 votes
Option 2: 50% fine - 7 votes
Option 3: fine down to H$1,000 - 5 votes
Option 4: close account - 13 votes
Therefore option 4 has the majority and Satyaki's account has been deactivated. As previously discussed the procedure on gaming is:
1st instance: Email warning
2nd instance: 50% of net worth fine
3rd instance: Account closure
Note that we have dropped the 2 week question ban as we haven't yet implemented that functionality. If we feel that it is necessary we may implement it later. Secondly, if the instance of gaming is particularly blatant (e.g. multiple linked accounts creating questions at wholly incorrect prices) then we may skip immediately to steps 2 or 3.
My own lesson was that we should have been more on top of this from the start. Over the next couple of weeks we are planning on doing a number of calls with users so we can be more in tune with what you think the major issues are and how we can make the site better. I look forward to speaking to as many of you as possible.
Nigel Eccles replied on April 08, 2008 18:46 to the question "Proposed new procedure for dealing with gaming (part 2)" in Hubdub:
I'm interested that you consider a democratic situation 'dangerous'. Technically you are right in that it is our site and it is our decision. However our decision from day one has been to consult the community on decisions of importance. I think that results in better decisions and a better outcome for everyone.
In general I don't expect we will revert to a poll very often however this issue was very divisive without a clear consensus. Going forwards we will have much clearer rules on gaming and therefore will immediately implement them rather than open each case for discussion.
Nigel Eccles replied on April 08, 2008 10:15 to the question "Proposed new procedure for dealing with gaming (part 2)" in Hubdub:
A quick set of answers to questions:
1. If the first offence is serious (e.g. multiple accounts and setting of initially incorrect odds) then we would skip the warning email and move to fine and public notice
2. We are currently working on how to fine users without having a dramatic impact on the markets
3. Any question that has been used to game will be automatically voided
4. Banning by IP is not an exact science and is not something we are planning to implement. There are other ways we can identify users who have re-opened their accounts which we will use (no more said)
5. On making all predictions public: It is just an open question at the moment. We wouldn't do it unless we felt there was a strong consensus to do so.
Nigel Eccles replied on April 07, 2008 19:35 to the discussion "Proposed new procedure for dealing with gaming" in Hubdub:
As discussed here:
http://getsatisfaction.com/hubdub/top...
We are putting the final decision on Satyaki to the vote. Please drop me an email to nigel [at] hubdub [dot] com.
You don't need to state any reasons, just say whether what action we should take with regards Satyaki. Options are:
1) Fine of H$8,300 (the amount earned from the gamed cricket questions) and 2 week bar on question creation
2) Fine of 50% of net worth and 2 week bar on question creation
3) Fine down to H$1,000 and 2 week bar on question creation
4) Account closed
Note that I will be checking all email addresses to ensure they correspond with a Hubdub account created prior to today.
Also, if you want to talk to me about the decision, the process or Hubdub in general then send me a contact number and I'll give you a call. Alternatively, my Skype handle is nigel.eccles. I expect I will be online fairly late this evening. Thanks everyone for their input.
Nigel Eccles replied on April 07, 2008 19:34 to the problem "I am on STRIKE" in Hubdub:
As discussed here:
http://getsatisfaction.com/hubdub/top...
We are putting the final decision on Satyaki to the vote. Please drop me an email to nigel [at] hubdub [dot] com.
You don't need to state any reasons, just say whether what action we should take with regards Satyaki. Options are:
1) Fine of H$8,300 (the amount earned from the gamed cricket questions) and 2 week bar on question creation
2) Fine of 50% of net worth and 2 week bar on question creation
3) Fine down to H$1,000 and 2 week bar on question creation
4) Account closed
Note that I will be checking all email addresses to ensure they correspond with a Hubdub account created prior to today.
Also, if you want to talk to me about the decision, the process or Hubdub in general then send me a contact number and I'll give you a call. Alternatively, my Skype handle is nigel.eccles. I expect I will be online fairly late this evening. Thanks everyone for their input.
Nigel Eccles replied on April 07, 2008 19:09 to the question "Proposed new procedure for dealing with gaming (part 2)" in Hubdub:
OK, please drop me an email to nigel [at] hubdub [dot] com.
You don't need to state any reasons, just say whether what action we should take with regards Satyaki. Options are:
1) Fine of H$8,300 (the amount earned from the gamed cricket questions) and 2 week bar on question creation
2) Fine of 50% of net worth and 2 week bar on question creation
3) Fine down to H$1,000 and 2 week bar on question creation
4) Account closed
Note that I will be checking all email addresses to ensure they correspond with a Hubdub account created prior to today.
Also, if you want to talk to me about the decision, the process or Hubdub in general then send me a contact number and I'll give you a call. Alternatively, my Skype handle is nigel.eccles. I expect I will be online fairly late this evening. Thanks everyone for their input.
Nigel Eccles replied on April 07, 2008 18:31 to the question "Proposed new procedure for dealing with gaming (part 2)" in Hubdub:
Nigel Eccles replied on April 07, 2008 17:06 to the question "Proposed new procedure for dealing with gaming (part 2)" in Hubdub:
All emails will be verified that they come from verified users that joined prior to today. No point spamming from new email accounts.
I will post the notification here on Get Satisfaction (across all three relevant threads). This is the forum where the users are interested in this topic have formed the discussion.
I agree there is a majority in support of strong action but no agreement on what that is. Having a vote will finalise that.
Nigel Eccles replied on April 07, 2008 16:44 to the question "Proposed new procedure for dealing with gaming (part 2)" in Hubdub:
Nigel Eccles replied on April 07, 2008 16:36 to the question "Proposed new procedure for dealing with gaming (part 2)" in Hubdub:
Some clarifications re the vote:
- A simple majority refers to >50% of the votes cast (e.g. if there were 20 votes cast then an option would have to have 11 or more votes to have a simple majority)
- The vote will remain open for 24 hours after which the majority view will be immediately implemented
- Future problems with gaming will be dealt with by admins without resorting to a vote as we will have clear set of agreed rules
However a number of good points were made above about the problem of running this on a question. Therefore, instead I propose we do it by email with each user sending me an email of how they want to vote. I will reveal the final result at the end of the 24 hour period.
Lastly, I would really appeal to people to help us on this one. We have always tried from the start to be completely open, responsive and inclusive. Whatever decision we come to on this particular question some people are going to disagree with it. This process I believed was fairest in (a) making sure we took the decision that represents the majority view and (b) makes it clear that we are listening.
Nigel Eccles replied on April 07, 2008 13:50 to the problem "I am on STRIKE" in Hubdub:
Thanks again for your input. Proposed resolution here:
http://getsatisfaction.com/hubdub/top...
Nigel Eccles replied on April 07, 2008 13:49 to the discussion "Proposed new procedure for dealing with gaming" in Hubdub:
Thanks again for your input. Proposed resolution here:
http://getsatisfaction.com/hubdub/top...
Nigel Eccles asked a question in Hubdub on April 07, 2008 13:47:
Proposed new procedure for dealing with gaming (part 2)*Admissions and Observations*
1. We do take gaming seriously however with all the other demands of running the site we probably haven't given it the attention it deserves. Part of the reason was we had hoped to deliver question approval functionality (which would eliminate most forms of gaming) sooner.
2. In the case of Satyaki my initial proposed resolution was obviously insufficient (my mistake)
3. One reason that Satyaki has stood out is his interest in Indian sport and entertainment. We have significantly less Indian than American users which means (a) they stand out and (b) questions at initially poor odds are much more likely to benefit the question creator. The Indian cricket questions were made significantly in advance of both the event and Satyaki making a prediction. If these had been about US sports other users would have shared in taking advantage of initially poor odds.
4. That said, Satyaki was obviously aware of this and repeatedly created starting estimates for a team at 48% which he subsequently thought were good value at 90% plus. Additionally, Satyaki is the only Hubdub user to be previously fined for gaming.
5. There have been other low level gamers that have received warnings and placed on an internal watchlist however no one else has progressed to a fine. Thanks to all the users for highlighting gaming.
6. (Jenniandboys point) Category editors always review flags. The current process is not to respond to the person who flagged the issue.
*General Resolution*
1. Revised procedure for dealing with gaming:
- First instance: Email warning
- Second instance: 50% fine, public notice and 2 week block on ability to create questions
- Third instance: Account closure
We could make this more aggressive (e.g. closure on first instance) however there are three issues with that.
(1) Most users just don't read the rules before they play and also for most social sites/games the accepted rules are unwritten therefore there is no point looking for them.
(2) I have emailed users (including some in this forum) about suspected gaming who have convinced me of their innocence. It can sometimes be very difficult to prove gaming between accounts.
(3) In usability studies we have done we have found new users very hesitant to create new questions. Basically they were scared they would do something wrong. Adding in the threat that they will potentially get their account closed would make that worse.
We won't at this time ban at IP level however if we do start to encounter a problem of account re-openings we will implement a more rigorous approach to user verification (e.g. banning of web mail etc)
2. To help make user activity more visible, we will list all users participating in a particular question on the question page. We are still working out the details of that.
3. We will implement question approval functionality by April 28th.
4. We will publish the new rules on gaming being discussed here: http://getsatisfaction.com/hubdub/top...
5. (Jenniandboys list of potential gamers) Some of these we have already identified but I will review this to see if we need to take further action here. Thanks for your diligence.
6. We will review how the site currently links to the rules to ensure they are more widely read (good point newswrangler)
7. We will improve integration between Hubdub and Get Satisfaction (another good point newswrangler)
*Resolution re Satyaki*
This has been the third time that Satyaki has been caught gaming. His one defence is that he has complied with the letter of the rules, although clearly not the spirit by which the vast majority of the other users adhere to. The discussion above is finely balanced between people who think he should be banned outright and others who think he should be heavily penalised. A smaller proportion of users feel he has been unfairly targeted.
As we don’t have a consensus I propose to put this to a vote. At 8pm BST I will create a question in the Hubdub category asking for users vote on what we should do. The options will be:
1) Fine of H$8,300 (the amount earned from the gamed cricket questions) and 2 week bar on question creation
2) Fine of 50% of net worth and 2 week bar on question creation
3) Fine down to H$1,000 and 2 week bar on question creation
4) Account closed
The question will remain open for 24 hours and I will request users to place one comment each stating their vote (e.g. vote using the comments, not the market). Votes from accounts that have been created after this post or are from accounts suspected of gaming will not be counted. If no option has a simple majority then we will average and round to the nearest integer option number (round up on 0.5). E.g. votes of 1, 3, 4, 2, 2, 4 averages to 2.667 and therefore we would apply option 3 (fine down to H$1,000).
*Question*
Users can currently make public or private predictions. Making private predictions obviously reduces the ability for other users to identify users who are gaming the system. So the question is: Should we change the system so that all predictions are public?
Nigel Eccles replied on April 07, 2008 13:00 to the discussion "Proposed new procedure for dealing with gaming" in Hubdub:
Nigel Eccles replied on April 07, 2008 09:56 to the discussion "Proposed new procedure for dealing with gaming" in Hubdub:
We are currently working on (a) what we believe we should do re Satyaki in particular, (b) how we should change the gaming procedure in general and (c) what functionality we should release that addresses gaming.
We are debating that today and I had planned on making our proposals some time around 8-9pm GMT this evening.
Thanks for everyone's input and newscollector, I look forwards to your report.
Nigel Eccles replied on April 05, 2008 14:54 to the problem "I am on STRIKE" in Hubdub:
@ Buckeyeguy
Proposed resolutions here: http://getsatisfaction.com/hubdub/top...
Just a note on why I want to keep this open for discussion. We have users who participate at different times of the day and also participation at the weekend tends to be lower than during the week. Additionally, I noticed in some discussions the consensus shifts and people come up with alternative solutions. We could draw a line under this now but I think that disfranchises users who haven't yet had a chance to have their say.
To some extent this is a test case which shapes how we deal with things like this in the future. I can't see a lot of benefits and few drawbacks in letting everyone have their say. In the end we will go with the consensus so you shouldn't interprete not taking immediate action with not listening.
Nigel Eccles replied on April 05, 2008 14:01 to the problem "Greatest problem of Hubdub, which needs immediate action" in Hubdub:
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