stealthtech's dashboard

And now SeaDragon.

Microsoft ever heard of the operating system called Windows Mobile? Too funny. Can you say "dogfooding"? This makes it just that much more difficult to convince others that wm6 is a platform to build on when the creator of the OS does not even support it. Are we to follow Microsoft's lead and program for the iPhone or any other platform instead wm6?

I'm having a hard time getting to that from start page. When I click that link you sent I see "ideas in Live Labs about Photosynth". But how do I go from the start page "Recently active topics in Live Labs
" to that page? I see "Share an Idea" but that does not change anythign when I click on it.
How to go from here http://getsatisfaction.com/livelabs to http://getsatisfaction.com/livelabs/p... – stealthtech, on August 25, 2008 23:27

I'm a bit clearer now. I did not notice the tab “Share an Idea” on the Live Labs home page. Instead of “Ask a Question” (the default). Instead of adding to this thread we should select “Share an Idea”. Search first and if we don’t find something similar create a new one. – stealthtech, on August 25, 2008 23:17

David, do we have to repost? Or how will we know of an Idea that is already on your guy's/gal's list? I'm just a bit confused on how to take what is here disseminate what is not and then determine if I should start a new post or did you already get the Idea. For example I have the idea about renaming files. Should I leave that alone did you all get the idea? Or should I now start up a thread on that?
Should a few "Idea" thread already be started for those that need further discussion:
Like: navigation, adding hints, resynthing, adding photos, renaming, etc... – stealthtech, on August 25, 2008 23:06

It has been suggested at least have a password PhotoSynth. Allowing people without a Live account to view a private synth. I wanted to make sure that we have private synths but to do it in a way that does not need people walking family members thru a Live account setup just to view a private photosynth. Like the photo sites that password protects the album. I just don’t want MS to use this as an opportunity to get more Live Accounts when all we want is the user to view the synth.

IMHO Another way of thinking this PhotoSynth thing is that it is not panorama stitching software. Can't compare apples to oranges. This is new. This is texture mapping with some magic to create a point cloud then display image on the point cloud. And yes if the photos are done correctly you will get a *panorama*.
I think this is where MS needs to clarify that PhotoSynth is new. This is not a rehash of Surround Video from the late 90's.

Peenie Wallie, I think your perception that because the company is big then they should throw all the people at a project along with the money. Well that is not how this was done. This was done like you said. But instead of a basement it was an office. Instead of 6 people it was about 12. This just shows that how much money you throw at something does not matter. The same 12 or 6 guys in a basement in San Frasico with venture capalist (or none) or by the onese from microsoft might turn out the same product. The problem you have is that this was not 12 guys backed by venture capalist but by microsoft. And becasue it was microsoft it should have been the best thing sense slice bread.
Then you give us a list of compannies that don't look to give two hoots about the product but to make some money off "panoramas" until the hype goes away. Then those compannies will vanish. Where is Surround Video today? gone like yesterdays news. How much R&D went into those products you listed?
And look closer not all of us here do that clap what do you call it golf clapping. There are post here with what one would call constructive critisim. The difference and my perception is that you just jumped on the website put together a synth in 5 mintues to say "I did it." when asked. Then dumped on the product. If you would have read and looked at videos and spent some more time making synths. You *migth* see things different. Also remeber not all MS people and money go into one project.
"Photosynth comes from a passionate little startup of two dozen people in Microsoft Live Labs. We are scientists, engineers, and designers working like crazy to deliver on Photosynth’s promise." from the About Us on http://photosynth.net/about.aspx. – stealthtech, on August 24, 2008 22:18

PTGui - stiches images not 360 viewing let alone navigation.
PTAssembler - stiches images not 360 viewing.
PanoTools - hard to find a google search gave me a mailing list seems to be a "cobbled" together libbry and applications. "free suite of programs and libraries " replace suite with *cobble*.
Panomizer - not in english?
Panoweaver - Closer we have 360 panorama (like we did in the late 90's) and moving from fixed points to see another panorama. A stiching of panoramas. PanoWalker's interface was nice but again moving from fixed point to the next on and at each point giving the ability to pan.
Realview 3D web site is a pain pop-ups and hard to navigate. Does that say something about the product? I ended up at BobCat Cad?
3DVista Studio - panoramic seen this back the late 90's. Fixed points no ability to move from one location to the next. In one demo I saw a pool with a fountain next to it. It Would be nice to click on the fountain and zoom in. Not as interactive.
Realviz Stitcher - just that a stitcher. No interactive moving.


I'm not saying that improvements can't be done. But you are comparing apples with oranges. PhotoSynth is not a panoramic viewer although that is one thing it can do.


The ability to look around a room see something in that room then click on it to get a big view is better than just moving the room around in circles.


I have had no problems making a room synth I just think it is the amount of time and energy you put into it and what the results will be. – stealthtech, on August 24, 2008 19:47

Well I think I was answering some of these questions base on the theory and feedback.


Is is true that small files have in comparison a:
- faster upload yes
- faster download no difference
- faster synth (less detail =? less calculating) I guess yes
- slower synth (less detail =? harder to calculate) I guess no
- worse synthy% (less detail =? less information) I guess yes


the one left out is
- quality lower


I think there is some compression going on as well. Not that much can be done with JPG because they are already compressed.


This is my opinion based on the theory and not practicla use. Except for the quality of a cell phone camera and a real camera. Guess which synth looked better? I appluad you on the effort, the feedback, and I'm sure it will help us. As you say there is no difference in quality but less storage. I could go the route I'm going of who cares about size. Then in about a week run out of room where as you will still be going.

Along those lines the ability to have a private none public synth. Also allow more control over sharing and who you can share with. The ability to password protect and share that way as well. This way one does not need to go through the steps to be a member just to view. I can have a pasword protectd synth and share that way as well. Two steps view the site enter password. Not the twenty steps to become a member and fill out a profile (if one does not have a live account) and now you can see the synth. I don't want to ham string people into becoming a member just to view a private synth. I can hear the naggers now "Why do I have to become a member to see a private synth."
Some of this can't be done with out a friends list and so forth. But maybe at least a private synth and maybe a password protected as well.

IMHO the only reason not to have lengthy uploads is in case the output is not what you want. This is one reason for a preview before upload.


IMHO it is import to have as many pixels as you can give it. The time to upload should not matter if the quality of the outcome is better. As David said the preformance of viewing is not impacted by the size. A one time sacrifice for a long upload with better quaility outweighs a short upload time with bad quality. To the viewer they don't know if it took you 1 hour or 20 minutes, but they will know the quaility of one is better over the other. Viewing the two different ones will have no performance impact just quality. I think this is also why we have 20GB of storage.


But again the issue is not being able to preview which will then turn that half hour into wasted time because of a bad synth. I'm doing one right now that is about 80 images at 100MBs. I hope it turns out ok.


Think of it like raytracing (Toy Story) I can have the computer spend one day to produce a high quality movie or one hour to produce a lower quality. But playing either movie will still play back in real time.

Ok I did some sort order changing.
Take a look using the Grid View [~]. And use the space bar and shift space bar compared to the . (period) , (comma). Then the same in the 3D view.


The . (period) and , (comma) adjust to the changes. The space bar and shift space bar do the same which produces a different output?.?. I'm still checking.

With out re-order


With re-order

I got ya, I think the "Rule of 3" might be along those lines. If I understand now, it is when you go from lets say looking/walking forward but the point of intrest (poi) is on the right of you. How do you go from forward to the right. I think the texture matching is based on a texture appearing in at least three or more different images. I start to shoot pictures to combine objects together as I rotate until reaching the POI. Making sure object A (somthing in front) and B (half way to poi) are in the same shot then B and C (POI). Then I can focus in on C. This might require like 8 to 10 pictures. I Just start taking pictures to make sure that I have an object in at least 3 photos each time I rotate. Like you say "take three" if not more. I know it kills the upload time but the more the better. Am I closer?

Just got finished. I don't know the results yet hot our of the oven.

Here is the one with out sorting.
No sorting right from the camera (FireMantel)


Using the sorting application and grouping.
Sorting using Synth Renamer (FireMantel001)


I also noticed the image used on my home page used two different images.
My Home Page. If you look at FireMantel001 w/sorting compared to FireMantel you will see the thumbnail image is different.

I'm working on the same idea to see if there is a difference. If you look under the What Features Should We Add to Photosynth


The challange is renaming 60+ images I wrote a little application to help. I'm working on a zone or group idea representing each distance from the subject. As you pointed out you have pictures at 5 paces and some at 10 paces. These would be Group A and Group B. The challange is that if you are at 10 paces and decide to go back to 5 then back to 10 then the pictures are out of order.
This is all in theory. I'm working on some test. I will point out and others can confirm or deny but I think your subject might be in question because of the textures. Look at the PDF guide. Page 7 shows a single tree (good) instead of a bunch of trees (bad).
The Photosynth Photography Guide (1Mbyte pdf)


Another thing is to study the master or grid view [~].

I just watched (scanned thru) a video on Photosynth from Channel 10 posted on the blog. It is about 19 to 25 minutes into the video. I think it is you Blaise and Scott (good video) explaining that the synthing is done on the PC and then uploaded. Funny the upload takes longer than synthing.


Meet some of the Photosynth team


Which is why another post states there is no "queue" or "pipeline" per say. Nice insight into the engineering challanges.

The 3d free-flighT stuff can be done using the w-a-s-d keys. One draw back to the view application is that a lot can be done with the keyboard but not know unless you read it somewhere. I read about it in the PDF guide. The viewing application needs more "help" and I mean navigation help a quick tutorial. Reveal the key board short cuts and make them more up front.


I can see the composer rendering a preview. Might not be the end result be something close. Or download a preview from the cloud. Before uploading to the cloud. This comes back to the question of what benifit does the cloud offer or what is the clouds role? Is it is only for hosting and publishing or does it do the actual work too? If the work is not done in the cloud that would mean the work is being done on my PC. So why not preview before upload? Now if some of the stiching, matching and figuring out textures is done in the cloud then I can see why a client side only would be challange. Does this process require a lot of horse power that is obtained by uploading the images to the cloud? I understand "what" is going on with Photosynth I just don't know "where".


If it does require horse power then I could see a comercial entity buying the servers to produce and host the synths. Like selling Surface, but for consumers that might be a bit more challange.


I'm all for a private and controlling the sharing of synths. Just having the C on the lower left corner is not too much of a warm a fuzzy fealing. Also for privacy.


I compare this S+S to the likes of DeepZoom the difference is the I can *choose* to upload to PhotoZoom or not. Or I can host somewhere else or just keep it local for an Intranet.

Ok, I was going to run some tests and see the difference in the 2D picture view. See what the order of the pictures are and if it changed from before. The challange is renaming 60+ image, so I wrote an application. That took some time.
Now that I'm ready to test. It looks like the site is being worked on and/or it is midnight (pst) and it is time to stop.
I will try tomorrow.