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Nathanael Lawrence,

The tools are coming. I know at this time the tools are not in the format that you want. But check back in about a month and we should have a GUI up and running.

http://www.codeplex.com/pivotcollecti...

Tools are coming.
http://www.codeplex.com/pivotcollecti...

I will try to answer the questions as well and yes I ran into an issue where Excel treated Zip Codes as numbers and it was all out of whack. I had to format the columns as Text. I'm guessing it is not so much as what Excel does but what the Pivot add-on does with the Cells in Excel. Whatever you see in Excel will show up in pivot. If you enter the date as a number, but it is display as a date then it will be displayed as a date in Pivot. I think it is also based on the format of the cell (General | Text | Number | Date).

What you are looking for if I understand correctly is for the Tool to have its own data types with custom formatting and constraints. Then have those data types translated to one of the Pivot data types. Pivot by default only has string, date, and number. The Excel tool does not have any way of constraining the input to a list of options. But I could define a type inside my tool as FacetMonthType. The output would be FacetStringType (stringType) which pivot knows of, but inside the tool once you designate a column/category as being FacetMonthType then you can only choose from Jan thru Dec. Then I could also define formatting with the data type to use short month (Jan) or long months (January). When published these data types will show up in the XML as the user describe from the tool. I would more than likely make this a FacetPickListType then have the user define the items in the list. For example I could use that one data type for both a month pick list and a state pick list. The New Car sample could have a pick list for Fuel and Body Style. There could even be a FacetNumberRangeType for the Users rating only to being 1 thru 10 or Safety Rating. That would translate to FacetNumberType (numberType).

I don't know about colors and formatting of the Info Panel, and I have not tired anything. I'm sure if this was a possibility I would have read it somewhere in the developers section. If there was something in place then I would assume the text would be marked up as HTML. Using HTML you could change the text to italics, bold, color, etc. But I think we are at the mercy of how Pivot wants to render the text on the Info Panel.

As far as obsolescence I've just been burned regardless if it is some prototype or a real product/technology in production. You could say I'm a bit jaded. Hence my comment about Linq2Sql or about being glad I did not get hooked on Bob (even though that was horrible). I just wonder if it is based on making money and if so then I will not complain about the advertisement in Pivot with the hopes it makes money. With the hopes they will keep Pivot around not because it is cool and useful for viewing Data Cubes and Data warehousing, but because of the ad revenue. As you pointed out with Photosynth I'm hoping because I see Visual Search on Bing that these two (Visual Search and Pivot) go hand and hand. That by seeing a variant of Pivot out in the real world helps build my confidence. So much so that I'm actually in the process of making the CodePlex project and once I move PivotMaker into a usable tool I'll let you know. I have been able to load up the a CXML into a grid make changes and save it with out having to republish or reubuild the images. Funny thing is that I just read another post (although not tested) that if publish from Excel that it only does the "publish" if the images have not changed or new rows added otherwise it just saves the CXML. It would be nice maybe to have a Save CXML instead of combining them and using logic to determine if the publish will happen or the save or both.

Well I have some tools built and unit tested. I was able to create a complete Pivot Collection including the CXML file and the SeaDragon images. The tuff part is trying to associate the raw original image with the items in the pivot collection. The CXML file does not have the original file location and/or name of the image. I can understand why, because the images are not used during viewing only creating. There is an image number that is associated with the SeaDragon image but not the original image. There is no way to get to the original image just by using the CXML file because it is not there. I had to create the concept of a project which contain information on how to associate the items in the CXML file with an image in a list of images. Having a project for a CXML file is not a requirement. If you open a CXML file without having a project to assciate the images files then all you will be able to do is make changes to the content. You will not be able to change the images, nor can you add or remove items. Also built into the tools is the ability to save just the CXML without having to rebuild the SeaDragon database. I can open a CXML file make a change and save it. It is coming along pretty well most of the time was spent building a DOM around the XML and supporting APIs to interact with the Pivot Collection along with reading and writing the XML. As I move this along I will see what it takes to move it to CodePlex. But there are some reservations as stated by Nathanael.

To Nathanael's point about planned obsolescence is a reason to not build tools. Not that MS plans obsolescence they just don't do long time planning. You are best to believe that what you are looking at today will be gone tomorrow or at least it will not be what it was today, but in the future it will be different. Either way they don't inform the community as to the longevity of their products. Has anyone seen a five year let alone a three or one year roadmap for Pivot? For all we know this could be it for Pivot and next year we will be like "What was pivot?" Or it will be wrapped up into Bing/Visual Search. I could spend the next month or two building some kind of wiz bang Pivot SeaDragon image merge w/database tool only to have MS yank the carpet out from under me. BTW is Linq2Sql dead?

The one thing that is good and a repeating theme is that these are not isolated technologies. Live Labs seems to be building on top of existing stuff they have already built. Atop of that the underlying technology has been around for some time and is just now coming into product form. I have seen SeaDragon used for many different things which gives it is some credit. I think another thing that is good is that the driving technology is the same on the backend and the front end is what is changing SeaDragon, Pivot, and Photosynth. Let us just hope and pray it here for some time.

There is another post on this as well:
http://www.getsatisfaction.com/live_l...

I have seen this as well related to MSI installer and vbscript. I searched the web for MSI error code ad found that registyig the dll it should work, it worked for me.

regsvr32 vbscript.dll

I have seen this as well related to MSI installer and vbscript. I searched the web for MSI error code ad found that registyig the dll it should work, it worked for me.

regsvr32 vbscript.dll

I think Excel is great and maybe a QAD solution. I think maybe a stand alone application would be nice. I think from that tool importing and exportig would be easier to accomplish. I think maybe I have a Holiday project to work on.

I would like to see it as part of IE and I belive it will be. For those that don't have IE or if MS does not open SeaDragon, Pivot, CXML and other technology up so others can embrace and extend then you have SilverLight. You can already see this with Bing's Visual Search.
http://www.bing.com/visualsearch

I like the WPF and render to bitmap. What I was thinking was something like Mail Merge in word. I like the New Car sample becaues I can see the image template with place holders. Placeholder for the car image, mpg, price, etc. The background/template was the same, a folder with some paper clips and fixed writing. That is what I did, I took an image of a folder. Using Paint.Net (or paint) I deteremined the location of where I wanted text. Then mapped those coordinates to the data points in my database. Looped through each record loaded the template image and used DrawString to merge text onto my template image. Or any other DrawXXXX APIs like DrawImage. I then saved that as new image. At the same time a CSV (Make sure to skip columns) file is built that can be placed into Excel to create the Collection tables. Thank for the heads up on PNG files, I did notice a lot of artifacts with JPG. Going to give the PNG file a try.

Does any one know of an application that allows one to "mail merge" with images?

And now SeaDragon.

Microsoft ever heard of the operating system called Windows Mobile? Too funny. Can you say "dogfooding"? This makes it just that much more difficult to convince others that wm6 is a platform to build on when the creator of the OS does not even support it. Are we to follow Microsoft's lead and program for the iPhone or any other platform instead wm6?

I'm having a hard time getting to that from start page. When I click that link you sent I see "ideas in Live Labs about Photosynth". But how do I go from the start page "Recently active topics in Live Labs
" to that page? I see "Share an Idea" but that does not change anythign when I click on it.
How to go from here http://getsatisfaction.com/livelabs to http://getsatisfaction.com/livelabs/p... – stealthtech, on August 25, 2008 23:27

I'm a bit clearer now. I did not notice the tab “Share an Idea” on the Live Labs home page. Instead of “Ask a Question” (the default). Instead of adding to this thread we should select “Share an Idea”. Search first and if we don’t find something similar create a new one. – stealthtech, on August 25, 2008 23:17

David, do we have to repost? Or how will we know of an Idea that is already on your guy's/gal's list? I'm just a bit confused on how to take what is here disseminate what is not and then determine if I should start a new post or did you already get the Idea. For example I have the idea about renaming files. Should I leave that alone did you all get the idea? Or should I now start up a thread on that?
Should a few "Idea" thread already be started for those that need further discussion:
Like: navigation, adding hints, resynthing, adding photos, renaming, etc... – stealthtech, on August 25, 2008 23:06

It has been suggested at least have a password PhotoSynth. Allowing people without a Live account to view a private synth. I wanted to make sure that we have private synths but to do it in a way that does not need people walking family members thru a Live account setup just to view a private photosynth. Like the photo sites that password protects the album. I just don’t want MS to use this as an opportunity to get more Live Accounts when all we want is the user to view the synth.

IMHO Another way of thinking this PhotoSynth thing is that it is not panorama stitching software. Can't compare apples to oranges. This is new. This is texture mapping with some magic to create a point cloud then display image on the point cloud. And yes if the photos are done correctly you will get a *panorama*.
I think this is where MS needs to clarify that PhotoSynth is new. This is not a rehash of Surround Video from the late 90's.

Peenie Wallie, I think your perception that because the company is big then they should throw all the people at a project along with the money. Well that is not how this was done. This was done like you said. But instead of a basement it was an office. Instead of 6 people it was about 12. This just shows that how much money you throw at something does not matter. The same 12 or 6 guys in a basement in San Frasico with venture capalist (or none) or by the onese from microsoft might turn out the same product. The problem you have is that this was not 12 guys backed by venture capalist but by microsoft. And becasue it was microsoft it should have been the best thing sense slice bread.
Then you give us a list of compannies that don't look to give two hoots about the product but to make some money off "panoramas" until the hype goes away. Then those compannies will vanish. Where is Surround Video today? gone like yesterdays news. How much R&D went into those products you listed?
And look closer not all of us here do that clap what do you call it golf clapping. There are post here with what one would call constructive critisim. The difference and my perception is that you just jumped on the website put together a synth in 5 mintues to say "I did it." when asked. Then dumped on the product. If you would have read and looked at videos and spent some more time making synths. You *migth* see things different. Also remeber not all MS people and money go into one project.
"Photosynth comes from a passionate little startup of two dozen people in Microsoft Live Labs. We are scientists, engineers, and designers working like crazy to deliver on Photosynth’s promise." from the About Us on http://photosynth.net/about.aspx. – stealthtech, on August 24, 2008 22:18

PTGui - stiches images not 360 viewing let alone navigation.
PTAssembler - stiches images not 360 viewing.
PanoTools - hard to find a google search gave me a mailing list seems to be a "cobbled" together libbry and applications. "free suite of programs and libraries " replace suite with *cobble*.
Panomizer - not in english?
Panoweaver - Closer we have 360 panorama (like we did in the late 90's) and moving from fixed points to see another panorama. A stiching of panoramas. PanoWalker's interface was nice but again moving from fixed point to the next on and at each point giving the ability to pan.
Realview 3D web site is a pain pop-ups and hard to navigate. Does that say something about the product? I ended up at BobCat Cad?
3DVista Studio - panoramic seen this back the late 90's. Fixed points no ability to move from one location to the next. In one demo I saw a pool with a fountain next to it. It Would be nice to click on the fountain and zoom in. Not as interactive.
Realviz Stitcher - just that a stitcher. No interactive moving.


I'm not saying that improvements can't be done. But you are comparing apples with oranges. PhotoSynth is not a panoramic viewer although that is one thing it can do.


The ability to look around a room see something in that room then click on it to get a big view is better than just moving the room around in circles.


I have had no problems making a room synth I just think it is the amount of time and energy you put into it and what the results will be. – stealthtech, on August 24, 2008 19:47

Well I think I was answering some of these questions base on the theory and feedback.


Is is true that small files have in comparison a:
- faster upload yes
- faster download no difference
- faster synth (less detail =? less calculating) I guess yes
- slower synth (less detail =? harder to calculate) I guess no
- worse synthy% (less detail =? less information) I guess yes


the one left out is
- quality lower


I think there is some compression going on as well. Not that much can be done with JPG because they are already compressed.


This is my opinion based on the theory and not practicla use. Except for the quality of a cell phone camera and a real camera. Guess which synth looked better? I appluad you on the effort, the feedback, and I'm sure it will help us. As you say there is no difference in quality but less storage. I could go the route I'm going of who cares about size. Then in about a week run out of room where as you will still be going.