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Real conversation view
The gather feature is nice, but what i miss is a "real" conversation view with all sent and received mails - just like Gmail. I guess, it could be done with a saved search (doesn't work for me, because the window content is blank) and should be placed right above the Inbox and not somewhere as a smart folder.
Get that and a few other things right and i would gladly pay for the app.
Get that and a few other things right and i would gladly pay for the app.
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Thanks for all of the terrific feedback on conversation views, it's obviously a topic that people care a great deal about. So I wanted to let everyone know that we're thinking about this, and while we have some great ideas on our white board, we want to make sure we're thinking through all of the issues thoroughly so that we that we can crush this thing.
What this means is that we'll probably need a few more beta releases (we release often) before we can land something new for conversation views. But stick with us, and we'll keep iterating and tuning as we go. In the meantime, please keep the feedback and ideas rolling in.
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The critical thing for me about how Gmail Conversations work is two things:
a) messages are collapsed unless they are unread, or starred
b) messages are in chronological view (not reverse) [I did find a preference for this in the super advanced panel]
I would *really* like to see options for these two things.
Postbox explained above that it views Conversations as a search mode, not a normal way of operation - I think there are enough Gmail people chiming in here that indicate that a lot of people DO use conversations as a normal way of operation. I certainly do. Conversations are also >the< reason I am trying Postbox.
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Right now, I'm really enjoying Postbox. But conversation view is what has me fleeing back to Gmail several times a day. If you've already got the mechanics in place with "Gather", just automate it!
I can see the headline now on tech news sites everywhere: "Finally, A Desktop Email Client With Gmail-style Conversations". You'd make a ton of people very happy.
I’m confident
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After all this discussion, I think it's fair to say, that a full gmail-style conversation view is something that would be a purchase feature for a lot of us (And I'm speaking as someone who had an up-to-date paid license to Eudora between 94 and 06).
So adding this as maybe a preference would probably be good. This way you simply switch between "conversation view" and classic folders & thread view.
And as for why I'm not simply using any of the gmail clients like mailplane: I don't actually want google to have my mail, I'd rather have it on my own server/desktop and under my own control. That's why I'm looking for a desktop client. It's just that gmails mailhandling is so superior for me with my few hundred mails a day that I sacrifice privacy for being able to cope.
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I currently use a Fluid.app browser for Gmail. I've tried multiple desktop clients for the seamless integration with the OS, but I always return to using Gmail for the conversation view. It's way more efficient than any other way of displaying messages. Instead of going back and forth between folders and scrolling down long lists of emails, everything is right there for you. While Postbox has the "Gather" feature, the extra step is a hassle (and it doesn't group enough of my emails). If Postbox wants to be a strong competitor in the email client market they need to work on better implementation of this.
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The 'Gather' button is found at the top right of the message header pane.
Actually, no, it isn't.
And a desktop incarnation of gmail would be the thing I'm looking for. Gmail is currently the best way to interact with mail. And the conversation view is a large part of that.
Actually I'd like to also be able to reverse the sorting in the conversation view. I usually read from top to bottom, and I like my mail the same way.
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I won't switch to another desktop email client until it supports full conversation threading like Gmail. I was hoping Postbox would, but it doesn't appear to. It looks great and promising, but I can't part with Gmail without that feature.
I’m disappointed.
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Inappropriate?I won't switch to another desktop email client until it supports full conversation threading like Gmail. I was hoping Postbox would, but it doesn't appear to. It looks great and promising, but I can't part with Gmail without that feature.
I’m disappointed.
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Agree! I also want something like Gmail on my desktop. Folder based mails are so yesterday and conversations Gmail's greatest feature. I don't understand why neither Thunderbird nor Postbox at least try to put that feature on the user's desktop. It can't be that hard to do, can it? -
Inappropriate?Hi guys,
If you use the gather button, that brings the entire conversation together - including messages in Sent, Archive, Trash, etc and it opens that entire conversation in a new tab for reading.1 Comment Add a comment
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Scott, this is exactly what i criticized: Pushing an extra button just to get functionality i already have in Gmail is simply not enough. Imagining that i would have to do that for every single conversation gives me a headache.
Did you read my suggestion with the saved search (call it 'Conversations') that should - optionally - be placed above the Inbox? That way, traditional view is preserved and the gather feature can be used and Gmail users get what they are used to. If you'd implemented that you'd really differentiate Postbox from all other mail clients i know. -
Inappropriate?Actually, I can't find the gather button. I'm probably too stupid, but where is it supposed to be?1 Comment Add a comment
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Haven't been able to find it either. It isn't in the customize toolbar option either.
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Inappropriate?The 'Gather' button is found at the top right of the message header pane.
It sounds like derlinzer is requesting an option to "auto-gather", which I guess I could see. Personally, if I select a message to view, I expect to see only that message. It makes sense to me to click "Gather" if I want to view the entire conversation. I don't think Postbox needs to be a desktop reimplementation of the way Gmail works. -
Inappropriate?Ah. i get it.
I'm not sure how i feel about it being there. If it's there the annotate button gets moved to the left.
It seems like it would make more sense to leave the annotate button in place and put the gather button to the left of it. But that doesn't really keep it from moving around. Would be better if it was put in a consistent place so those buttons don't move around.
Are there only 3 options that show up there (todo, annotate, gather)?
If so, why not have them there all the time and gray them out if they don't apply to the current message. That would at least give some consistency to their placement.
I’m undecided
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We changed Annotate to simply Edit. I think it needs to be stationary, however, as you suggest. Bug Filed on that.
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Inappropriate?The 'Gather' button is found at the top right of the message header pane.
Actually, no, it isn't.
And a desktop incarnation of gmail would be the thing I'm looking for. Gmail is currently the best way to interact with mail. And the conversation view is a large part of that.
Actually I'd like to also be able to reverse the sorting in the conversation view. I usually read from top to bottom, and I like my mail the same way.
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If you're using a Mac and you want a desktop version of Gmail, you might be better off with Mailplane.
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We've changed Gather to Show All, and it will only appear if two or more messages are found in a conversation. Bug filed to move Show All to the left of other buttons.
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Inappropriate?You have to be in a mail message that is part of a conversation for the gather button to appear. It will push the annotate button over and appear between annotate and to-do.
Personally, i hate Gmail ... mainly because of how it does the conversation view. I like seeing the thread, with the expand arrow and being able to select the message that I want to read. I've read the conversation up to that point, i don't need to see it again.
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Sounds good! Threaded conversations are the even better solution as long as the conversation is complete - meaning it includes sent mail as well without having to use the gather feature for each thread.
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That's why Gmail collapses everything - because you have read it.
Then if you do want to look at a past comment or forward a file to someone else that isn't in the conversation, all you do is click the stack of headers and it expands a little then you select the topic/subject and the whole message expands then you can forward from that point. This message then get stuck on the bottom of the conversation so when replies come in you can see it easily. Gmail conversation is fantastic. A desktop client that can do would be great - I hope Postbox is that desktop client :) -
Inappropriate?Regardless of people's opinions of Gmail, the fact that several people had trouble finding the Gather button sort of raises the question why 'Annotate', 'Gather' and 'To-Do' are in the message header pane at all, rather than being normal toolbar buttons.
I’m undecided
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On buttons, specifically, I think the solution lies within some of the suggestions outlined by mbond. We have some bugs filed in these areas, it's just a matter of getting to them.
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Gather was hard to find because it didn't show up until two or more messages in the conversation were found. But there is something to be said for:
1) always having the button display, and if it is not appropriate for the movement, disable it.
2) having buttons in the toolbar.
We're someone conscious of toolbar overload however, but this is something we'll think about. -
Inappropriate?Perhaps it's better to define what i really mean with conversation view:
- Threads (already available)
- Sent messages in those threads (without having to use gather for each thread)
- Sent messages without replies
This can easily be done with a saved search, i know. But i don't want a saved search in a folder, but i want this as a (default - optionally) view above Inbox. -
Inappropriate?I currently use a Fluid.app browser for Gmail. I've tried multiple desktop clients for the seamless integration with the OS, but I always return to using Gmail for the conversation view. It's way more efficient than any other way of displaying messages. Instead of going back and forth between folders and scrolling down long lists of emails, everything is right there for you. While Postbox has the "Gather" feature, the extra step is a hassle (and it doesn't group enough of my emails). If Postbox wants to be a strong competitor in the email client market they need to work on better implementation of this.
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Admittedly, I haven't used Postbox long enough to have a strong opinion here, but I have no real complaints so far with its way of message threading and "gathering" conversations. I think you make the common mistake of assuming that your personal preferences or requirements apply to everyone. It is neither a fair nor accurate conclusion to say something like, "I like Gmail's conversation views, therefore Postbox cannot compete unless it emulates them." All it really means is that you won't use it. That's fine. Different strokes for different folks.
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Yes, obviously it's an opinion that isn't shared by everyone. But as this is the opinion of many, Postbox should at least consider a better implementation. I assume that by creating their own email client they are wanting to bring over users of other clients (like myself) so I'm just stating how they should go about this.
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@jeff235 What does the gather feature actually do? It shows you received and sent mails in a conversation thread on a per message base. But wouldn't it be way more comfortable if you were shown a conversation thread including sent mails without hitting an extra button?
Aaron is right when you take into account that no other email client besides Mailplane (correct me if i'm wrong on that) is able to show conversations correctly. Gmail does that, but it does so in rather poor way (no hierarchy). So why not combine the best of both worlds (conversations + threads = threaded conversations) and offer something truly unique to differentiate Postbox from other mail clients? -
I'm all for improvements, of course. I'm just not convinced that improvement necessarily means emulating Gmail. For me, when I select a message, I want and expect to view only that message. If I want to view it in the context of the entire conversation, it makes sense to me to click 'Gather'. Show me what I ask for and nothing more. Honestly, I don't understand why those who prefer Gmail-style conversations don't simply keep using Gmail (or Fluid or Mailplane). It already works exactly the way you like it, right? Problem solved, no?
One quirk with Postbox that confused me at first is that it seems like messages aren't "gathered" until they are indexed. If you reply to a message, then go to the first message in the conversation and click 'Gather', your latest reply won't be included until background indexing has taken place the next time your machine goes idle. I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure this is how it works. -
@jeff - The quick answer to why we don't just use gmail is that we sometimes need offline operation. I love Gmail, but I want to be able to access email and attachments without an internet connection. Plus, I like the speed of a desktop application and the integration with things like my OS X address book. There are many other reasons to want Gmail-type features in a desktop application. This is presumably why Postbox exists in the first place i.e. to offer something better than what currently exists.
Additionally, I don't think anyone suggest that Postbox should be Gmail on the desktop, it's just that many users familiar with it want some of its features on a desktop client. -
@jeff235 Correct. The indexer has to know about the message in order for the Gather feature to work. So if you reply to a message, we'll tell the indexer to check the sent folder the next time the indexer kicks in on idle. The indexer will start after 60 seconds of inactivity, so it's pretty good about keeping up with you.
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@Nick T - Rejoice: http://www.macworld.com/article/13848...
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@jeff235 - Nice ... though I still see the utility in something like Postbox with a few more features. Bottom line, more options are always better for consumers.
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To take the opposing viewpoint, more options means more complexity and potential bloat, neither of which are good for users.
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To add to my prior comment, here is some recommended viewing to this end: http://tinyurl.com/bsjy45
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@jeff253 - you misunderstood me, I meant more mail software options is better because it drives quality up as a differentiator. E.g. Mail.app, Thunderbird, Postbox, etc.
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I guess I did misunderstand, but the same principle still applies. More choices means a user is never certain they've made the optimal choice. This is an unconventional view elaborated on in the video I linked to. I will stop, since this is getting off-topic. Rest assured, I am glad that Postbox exists as a choice. :)
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Inappropriate?I totally concur that an auto-gather mode should be a preference. I find that the standard view is confusing because I am not seeing my replies when reading through the thread. However, pushing the gather button is a totally unnecessary step. The better question is, when would the current threaded view be better than a true conversation view?
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That's exactly the point! I don't see any scenario where a conversation without sent mails is the better view.
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and others, such as myself, would prefer to NOT see our sent items in the thread.
its a personal preference thing. if it gets included as an option, great. but I just hope it stays optional. -
I *think* we have the right balance in Beta 10 in this regard. In one mode, we provide a summary of just the messages within the conversation in your current folder. In a second mode, we pull in everything. User choose between either mode via preference.
Let me know our thoughts. -
Inappropriate?Pardon the sacrilege, but what is wrong with Mail.app's conversation threading? You can easily turn threading on and off, and then if you just keep your inboxes and sentboxes (as I do at all times) highlighted then you'll see all the messages to and from you in one easy to read / collapsable thread. I am not saying Mail.app does everything correctly - nor am I saying that Postbox should be a Mail.app clone, but I don't think the wheel needs to be re-invented here.
If there is a better way for threading to be handled, I am totally up for it. But having to guess which messages need to be gathered, and then clicking the gather button to have a new window / tab open, instead of just seeing threads by default does not make think that with Postbox I will "spend less time managing messages and more time getting things done". ^___^
But I think a lot of this has to deal with the fact that you can't select multiple boxes at the same time, which I think has been addressed in another topic. I think I'll go find that one to put in my "+1".
I’m frustrated, but hopefully just temporarily so
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What sucks about Mail.app's threading is that when you turn it on and select a thread, you don't get a threaded view like in gmail, you get a summary of what's in the thread. To actually read the thread, you have to hit the little blue triangle to collapse the thread, and then still navigate through each email. So, it's not really a conversation view, it's just a way to reduce the number of emails showing up in the list view. I tried it and turned it off in a few minutes and have never looked back.
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If i remember correctly, Mail.app also only threads received mails and doesn't include sent mails. Besides that i found the sorting and threading of mails terrible because the subject and not the mail ID was used for that. The result were threads with messages that didn't belong in it, but showed up because they had the same subject...
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Actually, you can include sent mails in the thread. You just need to have the inbox and sent box selected. I've been doing it daily for years.
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"What sucks about Mail.app's threading is that when you turn it on and select a thread, you don't get a threaded view like in gmail, you get a summary of what's in the thread. To actually read the thread, you have to hit the little blue triangle to collapse the thread, and then still navigate through each email."
How is clicking a triangle to see all the threaded messages in Mail.app any more of an annoyance than having to click the mail's title in Gmail, and then waiting for the message to load? Both require one click to "open" the thread, and both require navigation through each mail in the thread.
But this is all moot. Clearly we both must agree that seeing sent and received mails threaded together is sorely missed in Postbox. -
Ah yes, that's right. So if you had a title like "Random" that you use a lot for random type emails, it will get sucked into the thread. It's really sub-par as far as Apple products usually go.
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Interesting. That doesn't happen for me.
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@Nick T Yep, exactly what i meant...
@endekks Nice, i never figured that out ;-) i always created a smart "conversation" filter... -
Wow, didn't even realize this was possible in Mail.app. But like derlinzer said, Mail.app's method of determining which messages belong in a conversation is faulty.
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@endekks - I am not sure that they are the same amount of clicks. When I open gmail and have a thread, I hit the message and the whole thread opens up, thus 1 click. However, in mail, I have to hit the thread, and then hit the triangle, and then hit whichever message I want to view since the "threaded view" item doesn't actually show the full thread, it shows a summary of how many emails are in the thread and who they are from. Thus, that is 3 clicks to accomplish the same thing, not counting the additional clicks to move between threaded emails in Mail.app as opposed to simply scrolling in Gmail.
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Gmail: Inbox list is open. Click #1 - Select the message thread I want to see. Click #2 - Click the title of the mail I want to expand and read.
Mail.app: Multiple accounts are selected. Click #1 - Select the message thread triangle I want to see (if it isn't already opened). Click #2 - Click the title of the mail I want to read in the lower pane.
At least in Mail.app I can use the arrow keys to cycle through the message titles and see each individual mail's contents without having to click the title of every single message in the thread, as I have to do in Gmail.
AGAIN... Re-read my first message about this. I am not in love with Mail.app. I merely brought it up as a frame of reference because, unlike other desktop mail applications for the Mac, it has the ability to select multiple mailboxes and view sent and received messages in one thread. And it's optional. I desperately would love to use another mail application, because Thunderbird just does not cut it, and Gmail is far from perfect, as well. -
@endekks - Ah, you're correct. I wasn't clicking on any of the messages because in the example gmail thread I used while I was thinking about it, I was able to read everything with the preview (thus no second click). I think that's what is superior over the Mail.app way of doing it.
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Inappropriate?If seeing sent items is desired in the thread view of post box, PLEASE make it optional.
Some of us have absolutely no desire to see anything that isn't in our inbox when we click on a thread.
I think the gather button is a good alternative ... having an option to set it as the default (so that when you click on a conversation it opens in a new 'gathered' tab) makes sense ... i guess. kinda.
Or, maybe, make it so that a middle click on a conversation opens it as gathered in a new tab ... kinda like opening a new tab in a web browser
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I never asked for showing sent mails in threads in the Inbox. The Inbox should stay the same but there should be another "virtual folder" called Conversations (or whatever...) right above it.
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whats the difference between having to click on the "virtual folder" on conversations and clicking the "gather" button?
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The big difference is, that you wouldn't have to gather for every single thread and that you would see all your sent (but unanswered) mail in one spot.
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I tried creating a saved search called "Conversations" that matches all messages in the Inbox, Archive, and Sent folders, but I couldn't get it to display a threaded view for some reason. It seemed so close to what some of you were looking for...
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Inappropriate?I'd like to hear Postbox's opinion on all this.6 Comments Add a comment
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Looks like they already gave their view on the matter.
http://getsatisfaction.com/postbox/to...
Let's hope they don't pull a 37Signals and say "the customer is stupid and we'll just do what we want because we're smarter and awesomer than you is".
Or something to that effect. -
They also replied the same thing to this thread. Hopefully they will reconsider how this is implemented. And actually, after using your tip for Mail.app, I'm pretty happy using it now.
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No problem. Some times it's the little things which help the most.
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Let's hope that that wasn't their last word on it and yep, no 37Signals please... So, let's all crosslike the idea ;-)
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@endekks We think our users are really smart, actually. Discussions like this are great, and will ultimately help us make a better product.
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@Sherman Great to hear that!
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Inappropriate?Great :)
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Inappropriate?Thanks for the discussion, everyone, this is really great! Here's a bit more detail on some of the design considerations...
In Postbox, you can select the conversation "summary row" in the message list to see a summary of messages within a conversation. The idea was to allow people to arrow key through their message list, and to quickly see updates to conversations that are collapsed. This allows for more conversations to remain collapsed, enabling more unique rows to display in the message list, and thus, more information to be visible at one time.
If more detail is desired, people can either click the "show quotes" link within each light blue header while in summary view, or simply expand the conversation in the message list to step through each message one-by-one.
We only summarize the messages that exist in the currently selected folder. We did this because we wanted the end user to choose which messages they consider to be "active" vs. "inactive". The Archive function helps tremendously here, because people can quickly move replies that are no longer valued out of view. If you need to get back to a message that was archived, the Gather button provides a quick way to find what you need. We view Gather as more of a search function than we do a working mode.
Now, for those who want to see sent messages along with inbox messages, there's a setting (which I personally use) at Tools >> Account Settings >> Copies & Folders >> "Place replies in the folder of the message being replied to." This allows sent messages and replies to be viewed together. This works really well while viewing by conversation, because then you have a clean who-said-what-when view. And from here, a user can be selective about what is valued, what is not, through the use of Archive.
Hope this helps explain some of the background thinking. Feel free to praise, flame, offer suggestions, etc.
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Using your last suggestion, does that mean that sent messages will show up in the inbox?
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Only to messages being replied to, not all sent messages.
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@Sherman But isn't that all way more complex and complicated than my initial suggestion? Remember, i just wanted to see a "saved search"/"smart folder"/"virtual folder" (whatever...) with all received/sent messages threaded properly and a link to that view right above the "Inbox" button. That way, all other features and design decissions are preserved, but a big bonus feature is added for Gmail-style lovers. This is partly already possible in Thunderbird and Postbox, except for proper threading of the view and being forced to save that search in a folder instead of being able to place it wherever i like.
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Is this "Place replies in the folder of the message being replied to" feature retroactive? For instance, if I send a mail to my printer in Singapore and CC it to one of my co-workers here in Ginza it will just go to the sentbox. But what happens when I get a mail back from one of those two people? Will my original sent message be moved to the inbox, then?
That would end up separating messages quite a bit. Sometimes my sent messages are in the inbox and sometimes not. If you add the ability to command-click multiple mailboxes so you can view them simultaneously, then everything will be where it *should* be, but then everything can also be viewed more fully-threaded.
Anyway, thanks for the great response. This kind of attitude makes me want to stick it out more with Postbox. -
I just tested this. And my fears have been confirmed.
I sent an email from one account within Postbox to another address (gmail). I went to Gmail in my browser, and replied to that mail. The mail from Gmail appeared in my inbox, but the original sent mail stayed in the sent box. Then in Postbox I replied to the mail from Gmail, and the newly sent reply was threaded in the inbox immediately. However, the original mail which started the thread now sits all by itself in the sent box.
If possible, the "Place replies in the folder of the message being replied to" should make sure to grab / gather / whatever *all* messages in the thread. After all, often times, the original message is pretty crucial. -
Yeah, I'm really not sold on the implementation. Seems like a very round about way of handling conversations.
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The current Postbox philosophy is exactly wrong, for my use anyway. I want every related email to be in the conversation by default, regardless of where it is stored. It should pull messages from the archive and everywhere else.
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Okay, I think I understand what y'all are going for, and that'll be useful in many circumstances...but I'd like to see the entire message without having to click another 2-3 times. Any way to do that without losing the conversation and threading functionality entirely?
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after playing a bit I'm starting to get the hang of it: select the conversation/thread, then click on individual messages in the subject index (rather than the conversation itself) to view 'em. not very obvious.
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Inappropriate?After all this discussion, I think it's fair to say, that a full gmail-style conversation view is something that would be a purchase feature for a lot of us (And I'm speaking as someone who had an up-to-date paid license to Eudora between 94 and 06).
So adding this as maybe a preference would probably be good. This way you simply switch between "conversation view" and classic folders & thread view.
And as for why I'm not simply using any of the gmail clients like mailplane: I don't actually want google to have my mail, I'd rather have it on my own server/desktop and under my own control. That's why I'm looking for a desktop client. It's just that gmails mailhandling is so superior for me with my few hundred mails a day that I sacrifice privacy for being able to cope.
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Inappropriate?Good points. But i wouldn't go as far as adding a switch feature. Read my suggestion with the properly placed saved search again. It would be an addition and change nothing in the way Postbox currently handles mails.
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Inappropriate?Look, i'm no Photoshop junkie as you will probably notice, but this is what i'd like to see:
Anyone aggree/disagree with me? Suggestions?
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Personally, I would rather see it be a feature in the preference pane, similar to Mail.app, but implemented correctly.
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That, right there, would allow for the selection of multiple mailboxes at the same time. This would pretty much solve the problem, provided that the threading "merger" would be applied for all boxes selected.
Moreover, I just hope that we would be able to do this for multiple accounts which would likely get ugly if you also had to select the Folders as well. If the "Place replies" feature included original outgoing messages of a thread, then the whole multiple Folder selection would be un-necessary. -
I would go for this if every folder were included in Conversations by default.
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@EyeRonik1 I think that it should be configurable to select which folders to include. I don't want Spam and Trash included for example.
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@endekks: I have multiple mail accounts, both gmail and non-gmail, and I don't want to have to select both the inbox and sent folder all the time I want to read my emails. Keeping them selected at all times doesn't work if you ever plan to see the content of some other folder too.
I really like derlinzer's idea instead. Actually, just having a default saved search called "conversations" with both inbox and sent mail, with threading enabled would make me REALLY happy (right now you cannot enable threads in saved searches). -
Inappropriate?I'd be curious to know how many of the people that have said they don't want this feature have used Gmail's conversation view for at least two weeks.1 Comment Add a comment
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I haven't used gmails conversation view for any length of time ... because i find it counter productive and annoying. If it doesn't feel 'right' from the get-go, it isn't worth putting the time into adjust
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Inappropriate?Basically I joined the beta program for the conversation view.
I consider any implementation of mail storage that uses folders and seperates by account and sent or received mail to be a bug.
Honestly, if I want that, I can stay with any of the existing mail clients.
The way it looks now, I'll probably wait for the next few beta releases (if they happen), check for the way mail is handled, file another bug like this one and then forget about postbox and stay watching for another client that helps me.
I’m indifferent by now
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Calling something a bug just because it doesn't match your personal preferences is ludicrous.
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wow.
This thread just deepens my feelings that email is fundamentally broken, and that email clients are trying to hack features onto a system that remains relatively unchanged since the 1960s. -
Probably some truth to that. Besides spam, I think email is also being ruined by the proliferation of social networking sites which each have their own message systems designed to keep you on their site staring at banner ads. It means your online communications are spread out all over the place, rather than being centralized and easily searchable.
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Don't forget the email notifications you receive which are merely messages which tell you to go to their site to read the real message.
Add to that a Growl alert telling you to go to your mail app to find that message from the service, and you get a lot of notification for what ultimately will likely just be Facebook message of somebody you barely knew in high school making a dumbass comment on a photo of another high school student you barely knew. A whole lot of set up for a whole lot of nothing. ^___^ -
@endekks: Exactly.
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I partly agree with TH; i wouldn't call missing conversation threading a bug but a flaw since no progress has been made here for quite a long time
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Inappropriate?Right now, I'm really enjoying Postbox. But conversation view is what has me fleeing back to Gmail several times a day. If you've already got the mechanics in place with "Gather", just automate it!
I can see the headline now on tech news sites everywhere: "Finally, A Desktop Email Client With Gmail-style Conversations". You'd make a ton of people very happy.
I’m confident
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Inappropriate?Thanks for all of the terrific feedback on conversation views, it's obviously a topic that people care a great deal about. So I wanted to let everyone know that we're thinking about this, and while we have some great ideas on our white board, we want to make sure we're thinking through all of the issues thoroughly so that we that we can crush this thing.
What this means is that we'll probably need a few more beta releases (we release often) before we can land something new for conversation views. But stick with us, and we'll keep iterating and tuning as we go. In the meantime, please keep the feedback and ideas rolling in.
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while you're thinking about conversation views, there is a quick fix you can do that no one will object to:
when i click 'gather' it pulls together messages from all folders... including trash. which is ok, because sometimes i do delete a message by mistake and having it reappear in its conversation context is good. however, because of the way postbox handles drafts, incomplete drafts end up in the trash. and i get a half-written version of an email i sent cluttering up my conversation view... -
Great to hear! Give your users something to try out within reasonable time and work things out with the feedback you get. Can't wait for this to happen and turn my back on Gmail, when i can use any other IMAP provider i trust with that much needed comfort.
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Inappropriate?'Gather' doesn't always work. I don't have a good feel for when it's broken yet, but I have several (tens? hundreds?) conversations where it doesn't work correctly.
I'll have to spend some time when I myself have less work to do and then file a more detailed bug report to add to Postbox's workload :P1 Comment Add a comment
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same here. It works sporadically
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Inappropriate?My 2 cents:
For me, a "real" thread view is preferable to a "conversation view". By that I mean I want the threading in the mailbox-pane (top pane) a lot more than I want it in the message-pane (bottom pane). But I still want ALL messages in the thread. What is the point of seeing a thread of incoming replies in a conversation but not see my outgoing messages?
I have never understood the logic behind the inbox/outbox either (apart from the obvious metaphor). I want a "mailbox" where I can see both incoming and outgoing messages, threaded.
For me Gmail is only part of the way there and not the holy grail to strive for. Gmail misses out big by leaving unanswered outgoing messages lost in "Sent Mail" but magically have them reappear once a reply is received.
The best implementation in a current email client is using the "Smart Mailbox" feature in Apple Mail. Using this I can create a "virtual" mailbox with all messages and have them threaded. This is still not ideal but it is the best I have seen outside of "FirstClass" (= early groupware now called something else).
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Inappropriate?I disagree. I think Gmail's implementation is just about perfect, especially if you practice Inbox Zero. What is the point of seeing unanswered outgoing messages mixed with messages requiring some action (aka the "Inbox" view)? Unless you need to find a message and need to see everything, including sent singletons, in which case you can always go to All Mail.
It sounds like the view you want is the All Mail view, isn't it?
I think Gmail wins big by magically have messages reappear only once a reply is received which is the precise time when an action is needed.
Out of sight out of mind until I need to do something about it.
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Good comments.
This topic makes it clear to me that email usage has become highly individualized. People have been using it for long enough that everyone has their own approach to it, and their own specific ideas of what they need it to do and how it should work.
I'm glad it's not me who needs to find a way to accommodate everyone's preferences and requirements. :) -
Inappropriate?@Jeff
Hopefully they don't try to accommodate everyone. If they do that they will just be another half-baked email client that has a lot of good ideas that doesn't quite pan out. They need to figure out what sets them apart and focus on it.
Some of us will likely leave if that happens. others will adapt. But in the end they will have an extremely well thought out, solid, product that sets itself apart from other email clients.
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Totally agree.
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Inappropriate?Just had an idea about this topic. I think this addresses MOST of the issues above.
1) I like the way it works now. Traditional view default. Click the gather button, and you get the gathered messages.
2) I like the idea of having a "list" view where you can see all the 'gathered' messages as described by @eimermusic above ... but i DO NOT like that idea in the traditional view.
What if after you clicked gather, there was a window pane at the top that has a "list view" for that conversation. It would look just like the list view now, but it would have a up/down arrow in the border between the list pane and text view of the conversation (where the messages actually are).
Clicking the arrows would expand or hide the list view ...
I don't particularly care if seeing the list or hiding the list is the default (seeing the list by default makes more sense to me).
Clicking on something in the list scrolls you to that individual message.
Going into the "gather view" for a conversation marks that whole conversation as read.
Working from the traditional list, clicking on a conversation should expand that list, not marking ANYTHING as read. the user can then go to individual emails which would then mark those emails as read. When a user clicks on an individual email it displays in the preview panel just like it does now.
However, when a user clicks on the thread (which would expand it, as described above) the preview panel should so the same thing as clicking on the gather button would ... that is, the whole conversation.
This way, the conversation oriented people can see their "gathered" view by default ... but it doesn't mark any mail as read which is driving others of us crazy. Plus it still gives us all the functionality of the gather view when we click on the gather button, PLUS it gives us additional functionality to more easily move around the gathered view and work with the messages there, plus it keeps the traditional email view intact.
Wow. i just totally solved this problem :)3 Comments Add a comment
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No, requiring the user to click 'gather' to get the advantages of conversation view is not a solution. Say I have 2-3 thousand conversations. You want me to click 'gather' on each one before I can view it as a cohesive unit? I could set up gmail to import my IMAP account and get those advantages instantly. Postbox should *definitely* at least have the option to gather automatically, and gathering should work better than it does.
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if you were to tell me that you had to view those 2 to 3 thousand conversations everyday, you might have a point. But how often, REALLY, do you have to view an entire thread to know whats going on?
I have horrible short term memory,and even I can remember the gist of all the threads I deal with on a daily basis (usually 10 or 15 a day) ...
The times that i have found gathering the messages most useful are after a weekend break, or if i moved away from a project when something higher priority came up, etc ... Not one one that i'm dealing with all day long, or for several days in a row. -
I just don't see the point of adding another step (explicitly pressing the Gather button) to every conversation I'll ever deal with. I'll never want a conversation *not* "gathered", ever. To me the concept of a gather button seems like adding a "open the envelope" button that you have to explicitly click for every message you're interested in.
And while we're at it, how about a "just a snippet" button that you have to click to get a preview of the messge, something akin to only opening the envelope a little bit. Sure, it's no big deal. It's only one more thing that you have to do with every conversation/message. And how often do you actually need to read the message that you're receiving? Often a snippet is good enough, so you'd be providing an extra service with the snippet button. Automatically showing a snippet might be cool for things like gmail, but well-established client software like pine has been successful without features like that and there's no need to confuse the users.
The 1970s called, and they want their email clients back. -
Inappropriate?Ok, I'm coming from nearly 20 years of Eudora (Mac) and I just don't understand the idea behind ''conversation''. Can someone explain it to me. How is this different from ''gather'' ?2 Comments Add a comment
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Here's one explanation:
http://mail.google.com/support/bin/an... -
A screenshot may help
http://www.google.com/mail/help/scree... -
Inappropriate?The critical thing for me about how Gmail Conversations work is two things:
a) messages are collapsed unless they are unread, or starred
b) messages are in chronological view (not reverse) [I did find a preference for this in the super advanced panel]
I would *really* like to see options for these two things.
Postbox explained above that it views Conversations as a search mode, not a normal way of operation - I think there are enough Gmail people chiming in here that indicate that a lot of people DO use conversations as a normal way of operation. I certainly do. Conversations are also >the< reason I am trying Postbox.
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@Sue
Thank you for so clearly articulating what I and I'm sure others have been trying to say. -
Gmail isn't an option for everyone (corporate email, people who run their own servers), but the conversation mode is ideal for handling large volumes of email without losing track of everything. Sup (http://sup.rubyforge.org/) came close, but it played fast and loose with IMAP and didn't have a GUI, so I'm extremely hopeful for Postbox.
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It may not be THE reason for some (it definitely is for me), but I think Gmail is pushing the envelope in things email related, so mimicking their features with a client would surely be widely appreciated.
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Inappropriate?very disappointed with the changes here.
Gather button is gone.
Conversations, when viewed, mark all the messages as read.
Marking conversations as read, IMO, breaks postbox. How do you leave mail in a conversation unread so that in other mail clients (like on the iphone), its still viewed as unread if you accidently hit a conversation and 20 unread messages are suddenly read in a thread that is 100 messages long.
How do you gather threads to a new tab now? that was insanely useful.
In practice, i can't use postbox until the mark conversations as read thing is addressed. i have too many threads where accidentally marking everything as read would be devastating to my work flow on certain projects.
I’m frustrated
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I can think of a simple fix for the 'marking whole thread as read'
I would add a second countdown to the settings, similar to the one which specifies the duration the message has to remain open for Postbox to mark is as read.
The second countdown would be much longer and specify the duration that you would need the whole thread open, for it all to count as read. Cause if say you read the thread and it's open for 30 seconds, then it's safe (or safer) to assume you've read all the individual messages. A step further down that line could be a multiplier effect, so if there are 3 messages in the thread, i need 30 seconds, if 10, I would need a 100 etc.
I feel your pain but I'm afraid there is no perfect way to solve this. I often click on the whole thread and read through the message on the right and voila I'm done, next message (next thread). Only to remember seconds later that I have to go back and unfold the whole thread and individually click each of the messages to mark each as read. Slightly tedious, which is the opposite end of what you're saying with the mark-all-as-read problem.. -
I just don't see adding a "timer" as a way to fix the problem. What if i hit delete on a message, it selected the next message (which happens to be a thread). I then get distracted for 10 minutes and when i come back all my messages are marked as read.
Right now I am being EXTREMELY careful about how i delete my mail and move around to avoid this problem.
I shouldn't have to spend time "being careful" to not accidentally set messages as "read" ... they should only be marked as read if i actually read them.
Maybe one solution would be to NOT select the next message automatically. After hitting delete it doesn't select anything and the user has to hit the down arrow key or click on the next message. I'm not sure that makes sense though.
Just adding an option to the preference panel to "mark thread as read on select" would do it.
That option could be right above "Sort thread with newest/oldest first"
Which could be right above "Show all opens to new tab"
Anyway you look at it, i think conversation views will need a preference panel all to themselves. -
As I mentioned in another sub-thread, there's no single right way to do this because everyone is wired differently. @rado expresses this perfectly. We're more concerned about nailing the default behavior for novices, other behaviors can be tuned by exposing preferences to advanced users.
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No single right way besides Gmail's implementation :). I gave up hopes on Postbox and reverted to Gmail. It's offline support gives me no reason to use anything else.
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Can't argue with that logic.
If you have an application that does exactly what you want there is no reason to look at other alternatives.
My issue is there are no email clients that work the way I want them too AND work correctly (relatively bug free). I'd be happy with one that works close to the way i want and is relatively bug free. -
Inappropriate?@rado
the simplest would be to throw an option in to the system preferences. "Traditional" or "Conversation" by default. The show all button (previously the gather button) brings it all together for those times that you want it to come all together (which has been very handy for me in the past).
I still think that this, http://getsatisfaction.com/postbox/topics/real_conversation_view#reply_796972, is the best overall solution.1 Comment Add a comment
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@mbond, (btw we should really use the comments to reply to each other, this clutters up the space here.)
A two-mode approach could work too I guess. But such is the case with all problems, two parties rooting for opposing ideas. The beauty of software is that you can make it individual through preferences and thus make everyone happy. Innovation (not compromise) however, is introducing a third way, where both parties are happy with that one thing, together. And that I think is what we should try to arrive at rather than settle for two-mode solutions >just yet< (no disrespect).
My problem with the gather (show all) function, was simply that you had to do the extra step of clicking gather. Don't get me wrong, I love the feature and it's THE reason I'm using Postbox, but I was hoping for an auto-gather feature. One which would include my replies among the incoming messages. Without my replies, the current threading only serves its function in the list pane (left). As soon as I start reading the messages in the right column I'm left to wonder, did I reply and what did I reply, I look back to the left, unroll the list of constituent messages and look for them small curly arrows indicating my feedback, I move my eyes back to the right and click gather to read what I wrote.
The arrows in the list pane are brilliant cause they let me see, IF I've replied or forwarded the given email, which is great. In the list view, all I need is IF, in the right column, I would like to see >what< I replied with.
Regarding the mark-all-as-read problem I've been thinking whether it would be technically possible (from the programming point of view), for Postbox to detect whether the >particular< message has been viewed for the necessary (say) 3 seconds for it to be marked as read. This way, IF you go through the right column and go through the threaded messages one by one, Postbox would mark each message as read, one by one, individually, accordingly.
Additionally I would throw in a little colour-coding to the mix (as well as left, right alignment, or even tab-offsetting of replies like you see in old-style-forums like on imdb (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1706767/bo...)). I've thrown these ideas out there before (http://getsatisfaction.com/postbox/to...), before I found this thread. (speaking of which, it would be nice if people took their time in adding keywords to their posts, so that they're easier to find) (that and people actually using the search to find previously started threads with same problems, I know I try) -
Inappropriate?This has been mentioned before, but i haven't seen it addressed lately.
It seems like people want to use the "conversation view" to read through the thread of messages ... but the messages are sorted in newest first. It makes it hard to read through them like that. Seems like it would be better to have them in chronological order (oldest to newest).
Maybe make them collapsible so that all the old messages are collapsed and only the unread messages are expanded?
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FWIW, I think that Gmail's treatment of conversations / collapsing / ordering / including sent-mail messages / etc. is excellent. Why not use that as a starting point for postbox conversations? *Then* try to improve on the concept.
Just my $0.02. -
FWIW, I think that Gmail's treatment of conversations / collapsing / ordering / including sent-mail messages / etc. is excellent. Why not use that as a starting point for postbox conversations? Indeed, multiple people on this thread (including several of the "best points") have cited Gmail's conversation model as a Good one. Once that is all working nicely in Postbox, *then* perhaps try to improve on the concept.
Just my $0.02. -
Postbox is somewhat different in that the preview pane, if located on the bottom, has limited real estate. So when one clicks on a conversation summary row, they will be met with old message headers instead of the newest content from the conversation. We had the order reversed initially and it resulted in twice as many clicks/scrolls to get up to speed on the status of a conversation.
Since then we've implemented the vertical view for the message pane, and since there's more space there now, a chron view starts to make more sense... for those users who are using vertical view.
At the end of the day, there's no "right" way to do this since everyone is wired differently. The best approach is to pick the default that is least likely to trip novice users up, and to make available a preference that allows advanced users to pick the view that best suits them. -
@sherman
I don't think it should change based on the window layout, that would be confusing (and potentially disastrous for applescripting or automator if those features ever come along).
The way it is now, to someone that isn't familar with conversation views, i find it to be very confusing. I'd rather see all the messages in chronological order, but collapsed, and possible scroll me to the first unread message (which wouldn't be collapsed).
I still see that being problematic, but if not all the messages were marked as read at this point, it would be helpful. -
Inappropriate?I definitely agree with Jeff and mbond on this one. For what we saw, Gmail seems to be a good starting point for handling conversation in Postbox. With all the other useful feature already in it, it would be the best email client out there. -
Inappropriate?Just a thought: why the quotes are, by default, shown? The conversation view doesn't require to see the quoted text by default.
So maybe it would be interesting to hide the quoted text by default. And maybe hide the read messages.
Keep doing your good job, Postbox is already very good and it's not even the version 1! Thank for this.1 Comment Add a comment
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doubleA, we do hide the quotes by default in conversation mode. The one scenario where we show them is when the message body has nested / inline replies. That is, quoted text, followed by reply text followed by quoted text, followed by reply text. That seemed like the one area where it was really confusing in conversation mode because you can't tell what the person is talking about.
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Inappropriate?The conversation view currently implemented is very nice, and its a first for a client.. but I think it can be improved upon very much still.
Currently it unfolds all received mails for that conversation by default making a very big scrolling area while it may not be necessary to see them all. Emulating the way gmail does this would be a very good touch.
I’m sad
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I agree, only unread messages should be unfolded (as said by doubleA too).
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you are wanting the hidden preference: pb.conversation_display.max_open_messages
be warned, it screws some things up in Beta 12. Or was that 11? i can't remember which version i was running now.
Documented here:
http://www.the-forgotten.org/tech/pos... -
Given the name, it doesn't sound exactly right. If there are more messages than max_open_messages, which messages are shown (or supposed to be shown if it was working)? the most recent ones, the unread ones, or what?
I'd like, instead, to have only unread messages open, no matter how many or how few.
edit: I think I made a mess with getsatisfaction and opera ... they don't always work well together apparently -
I edited my above comment to include a link. It does what you want ;-)
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"edit: I think I made a mess with getsatisfaction and opera ... they don't always work well together apparently"
I know this is getting of topic, but what makes you say so? -
@mbond: THANKS!! :) It does almost what I want, if I set it to 0 it shows only unread messages. If I set it to 1 (or any value > 0) instead, it shows the first N messages, while I'd like it to show the *last* N messages. Little things though, and so far seems to work ok on beta 12 ... we'll see.
@MMeester: I clicked "post reply" by mistake instead of "add comment", realized the mistake I clicked delete, but opera didn't update the page, or let me do anyting until I cleared the cache (reload didn't work), so I though I messed it up. Yes, it's a little off topic :) -
Daniele, thanks, I got it :)
I tried to PM you, but this doesn't seem to be supported...is the "login"-form displayed out of sight, too, in your case? This could be the reason why getsatisfaction didn't let you do anything. Scroll down, Luke! ;)
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