ASIO plug in needed

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ou trouver le support asio et un support VST pour songbird afin que je l'adopte complètement et suprime foobar qui est aujourd'hui le meilleur lecteur hifi.
ou est il possible de d'utiliser songbird en front end et lire sur foobar ?
alexandre

Looking forward for ASIO support too.. or at least kernel streaming..

Thanks..

Pending support ASIO to install songbird.

Thanks.

They should not stop there, ASIO is good for all those people with aftermarket sound cards, but for those with no sound cards they will need kernel streaming in XP and below and/or WASAPI support for Vista.

ASIO, Kernel and WASAPI will cover all PC users.....and would put this player [at least in terms of serious listening abilities] with other players used by serious listeners. See, Foobar, Winamp, XMplay....

I agree; WASAPI exclusive mode for Vista will cover all types of cards. I would like to switch from Foobar to Songbird for the UI usability but I will never do that without bitperfect playback from Vista.

I'm using RME FireFace 400 DAC with Foobar and WASAPI plugin; ASIO also works for me.

ASIO / WASAPI required for this to be taken seriously by audiophiles. Otherwise it's useless to us.

There is only one thing keeping me from converting to Songbird and that is the lack of ASIO output.

I have to say I'm surprised how passive the developers' attitude towards audiophile bit-perfect audio output thus far has been. It's been shown in this and other bit-perfect related threads (such as the one about WASAPI). Bit-perfect output isn't even mentioned in the roadmap.

The fact that an audio playing software at it's 1.0 state does not provide high quality audio output is baffling.

I too am baffled that Songbird claims a 1.0 state with no audiophile support - ASIO at a minimum. No switch for me until this happens.

Bump for ASIO, Kernel and WASAPI support

Yes, please, please, please provide ASIO support. I'm ready to throw everything I have into songbird if only for this one thing. The audio quality difference is huge! (I am using the Playtek USB-ASIO driver which makes a huge difference in sound quality, especially versus KS, ASIO4ALL, etc.) So let me say again: please, provide ASIO support! I'm willing to make a financial committment on this front, and I wouldn't be surprised if other people felt the same way!

ASIO (lack there-of) is the only thing keeping me from taking Songbird seriously as yet. I'd like to use it when it gets such support...

I tried Songbird and found it quite nice, but realizing the total lack of Asio and/or Wasapi support I had to uninstall it from my drive.
Well, maybe I shall try it again when you'll finally decide to implement this feature..

Just out of curiosity, have any of you guys actually done a blind test to determine if you can identify the difference between WASAPI/ASIO and non-exclusive mode?

The reason I ask is because the idea of bit-perfect playback sounds great to me, but I'm just wondering if anyone has actually performed a proper blind test? Because I like the sound of this idea, but I only ever vote for ideas which have conclusive proof that they are beneficial.

Not trying to insult anyone, or start a flamewar, I am just wondering, and if anyone has a way to run one.

I wish to have ASIO support to use at max my ASIO compliant RME fireface 400 ... I use it in a system that costs many thousands of euro and it would be cool to switch from foobar to songbird. I think that the ASIO resolution is a better point of start to do also audio manipulation, like time delay, lot of bands for EQ, phase rotations and so on.

Andrew makes a good point. I have done blind tests on ASIO vs. non-exclusive and found there to be a noticeable difference. Further when I changed ASIO drivers to those from Playtek (USB-ASIO), the difference was even more profound. I would then playback using ASIO and then switch to output from my NAD player and could not hear the difference.

The Songbird Development Team fundamentally doesn't understand the Windows environment and shouldn't promulgate this app for that platform. Windows has been and is flawed for music playback. Phrases like "K-Mixer, V-Mixer and H-Mixer" don't begin to address all the problems. The least the team can do is alleviate their share of the problems by making the development of an ASIO plug-in the highest priority. The free ASIO For All app is already available for the Windows platform. Winamp has an ASIO plug-in available from a third party which is why I only use their app in Windows. Songbird must be able to directly access the PC's audio hardware for music playback and ripping. Microsoft may never get music right....not that Apple is any better since iTunes is a horrible app for quality music playback and ripping. Songbird could leapfrog past iTunes and Winamp by having its core directly access the audio card's hardware and bypass the intrinsic Operating System distortions. Don't be fooled by Microsoft's solution to the audio problems with the introduction of WASAPI in Vista. It also is screwed up and doesn't work. Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) is a great philosophy. Follow the bits from the LPCM CD to the users ears. How can you facilitate a path without distortion. One might think this was more important than candy wrapping development.

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled
Music Playback Distorted in Windows.

Bringing this up again. That garage operations like Foobar, Winamp, etc. can implement this but a venture capital baby like Songbird can't is an insult to audiophiles. And it's a crazy marketing idea. In any hobbyist enterprise, from bicycling to motoring it is the enthusiasts who drive the technology. The moral high ground of bit-perfect on Windows is easily available yet you eschew it.

I won't go so far as to say it's needed for serious listening. But it is needed by serious listeners, if only because we have other options that are free and easy.

ASIO support is essential for a moderm player.

Regards.

But once again, resources are limited, and would the inclusion of ASIO/WASAPI (which nobody here have successfully proven would noticeably increase the sound quality of), be worth slowing down the development of proven features?

That's the dilemma. Its not a question of whether or not Songbird should have it (the answer is obviously that there should be a way). The question is, is it more valuable then other features?

For who loves music, YES!
For who loves audio technology, YES!

If you would SongBird will be a reference/standard for the future (as FIreFox) ASIO should be present in SB. Otherwise, no audio-phile use it on WIndows.

Bye.

But in what professional use would Songbird be used for that WASAPI/ASIO would be required? I can't imagine any situation where low latency would be required in Songbird, or any case where the stream from Songbird would be used professionally. For DJ use perhaps (the low latency would help to mix properly), but Songbird certainly wouldn't be the application of choice for that (DJ's wouldn't use winamp, Songbird, WMP or iTunes, they would use tools available from companies such as Native Instruments).

I've done a semi-blind test for WASAPI at least, and I couldn't notice any difference on my sound card (the only difference I noticed on foobar at least, during song interchange, I got an annoying hiss). On Windows though, one benefit would be it blocks out all other sounds. Surely though, there might be other ways to do that...

I'm simply saying, should other features be delayed simply to impress audiophiles with a placebo effect? How many of such users are REALLY out there? Remember, both Apple and Microsoft surely have the resources to implement it into their players, however, have chosen not to. And despite doing so, some audiophiles still walk around claiming WMP produces crappy sound compared to iTunes without actually comparing them.

Just my 2cents. Remember, I'm not a POTI employee, so my opinions have NOTHING to do with the Songbird team.

And truthfully, the only way I believe it will be possible to convince the POTI team to do it, is less "AUDIOPHILES NEED THIS", and more "Well, I did a blind test, and results...". Because at the moment, no users who have definitively done a blind test here have demonstrated it to be better.

And hell, if nobody notices the difference, I'd rather Songbird just mutes all other players in the mixer, and claims its a wasapi plugin.

But that wasn't the question.. The question was: have you done a blind test?

And I mean a proper blind test where you play a song in full, then play it in full again without knowing what is being used. Believe me, I used to own a few high end sound cards, but at the end, discovered, that sometimes paying more means you are only paying for the illusion of better sound.

PS. iTunes doesn't have ASIO support. Apparently there used to be a way to do it via foobar (which would be pointless), but apparently, that's no longer supported. Apple itself has never supported ASIO in Itunes.

There is a humongous difference between itunes and WMP on the one hand and Songbird. They have the advantage of automatic install on most every machine out there. They will succeed for that reason alone.

Songbird is in a different universe--the universe of foobar, media monkey, vlc, play, winamp, etc. It needs to provide reasons to switch. History shows the best ways are to have technical selling point over the mainstream choices, and to convince "power users"--people with influence over a circle of friends, that Songbird is their best choice. ASIO/WASAPI--placebo or not, does both. That's why it's worth it to devote the resources.

This story has happened over and over again, with the safety bicycle, amateur radio, the gasoline vs. electric car, SLR cameras, the mountain bike, the Jeep, and, of course, repeatedly within high fidelity sound itself. Over and over again, the public chooses technologies that are only really needed by power users. Those are the empirical facts about leisure technologies.

I agree with Andre Luecke on this one, I think its a similar argument with LPs and CDs / MP3 Files over which sounds better. Personally i think Songbird sounds clearer than WMP and iTunes. At the end of the day if POTI decided to cater just for minority users then they'd lose their fan base and there wouldn't be any more Songbird. Surely this would be better implimented as an add-on by a music technician / developer interested in this field.

@Usernaim. Except, that Apple could simply turn around, and claim they tweaked their MP3 decoder a bit, and the same crowd that the Songbird developers spent time coding ASIO support for, would turn around and rush to itunes? Why? There is a difference between true audiophiles and wanabee audiophiles. The true audiophiles run frequency tests (so they know what their listening strengths are). They don't pretend they have super hearing, and are simply interested in the truth. Whereas, the wannabees simply want to believe they can(like the emperors new clothes), and are scared by the thought that their hearing may not be as good as they believe. .

Wannabee's aren't chasing the best in sound quality. I know, I used to want to chase after expensive speakers, etc. But then after doing frequency tests and started doing blind tests, I discovered the truth.

Too many companies get into the habit of doing gimmicky things that are useless, and yes, it generates a strong crowd at the time. But eventually, the truth comes out, and everything goes to the crapper.

If POTI starts wasting their time on functionality that serves no purpose (other then stroke the ego of a few people), I would stop supporting Songbird. I didn't choose to help support this media player because it appeals to everyone. I chose to support POTI because:
1) They have demonstrated to me that they have a long term plan
2) They are more interested in producing a useful product that use gimmicks.
3) Its about what we need.
4) Finally, they question the purpose of everything they do. If it has no purpose, then long term, its just a gimmick. And just because a player does something a certain way, doesn't mean they have to.

So, if POTI waste time on ASIO or WASAPI without proof it produces noticeable benefits, I would leave. Because I REFUSE to waste time on a player who aren't using 100% of their resources (yes, it does cost money and time to develop features) on making the player genuinely better. Thus far, I have myself seen WASAPI deliver a slight WORSE experience, and ASIO, all blind tests results I'm seeing from the internet, suggest its useless. So for me, dropping development of features like podcasting (even though I'm not really a podcaster), for Bitperfect playback which wont affect a single user, would encourage me to support other projects instead.

Just my 2c.

Clearly if you compare foobar to Song Bird and hear no difference you don't require an ASIO plug in for your system. Using Song Bird for a Music Server the latency issue is irrelevant but the changing of the bits in the operating system is still a serious issue, for those seeking accurate playback.

NVB

@NVB

I don't debate you will get the audio stream to be more accurate.

Lets use an example. We both have cars. Yours accelerates to 100 in 11.00secs, mine takes 11.01secs. Neither are racing cars so they wouldn't be used in an environment where the 0.01secs will make a difference (like on a racing track, where you will accelerate hundreds of times). Mine has softer seats. Guess which car passengers would prefer? Mine also has better suspension too.

That's like ASIO. "Bitperfect" sounds great on paper, but unless you are reprocessing the output a few times (where errors accumulate), it may not be noticeable. Great in theory, doesn't actually mean noticeable in practice.

So yes, you may consider changing the bits to be a serious issue for "accurate playback", but can you recognise an "accurate stream" from an "inaccurate stream". From the sounds of things, you have done no testing to determine if you can. Furthermore, an inaccurate stream doesn't necessarily translate into a worse experience. Dolby Digital Pro Logic for instance improves the experience by making it more immersive, whilst reducing the accuracy.

So, have you done a blind test? Because I did with WASAPI (which is bitperfect too). There was no difference (and I know for certain I had better hearing then the rest of the people in the place I worked because I tested everyone, because a hardware bug relied on good hearing). So I know from experience what you expect to be true, may actually not be true.

And if you look through the posts here, whilst there are exhaustive claims that without it, there is an enormous amount of distortion, not one person appears to have properly tested it. Four years ago, I would have voted a big +1 for this too, but now I know it would have done nothing for me.

Remember, its better to be honest to ones self and prove the value of their purchases to themselves, rather then live a lie. Its cheaper too...

Well, the reason I am asking for a blind test, is that there is such thing as a placebo effect. In fact, companies such as Bose exploit this effect by moving their products away from others, and setting up their own stores. Everyone who forks out thousands for a home stereo system and knows it will "hear the difference". That's how Monster cables sells so much stock.

Also, in many cases (particularly with USB soundcards), the default shared music format is sometimes set too low too (yes, seen at least 1 or 2 guys on getsatisfaction with that problem). In which case, using ASIO just bypasses the incorrect shared server setting (which is what using Directaudio would do).

So I'd simply like to eliminate external factors, such as the placebo effect, and incorrect shared audio server format settings.

Those of us who are asking for ASIO are the very ones who have gear that enables us to hear the difference. In my system I can easily hear the difference between any ASIO enabled application and Songbird. FWIW I don't use USB or an onboard soundcard. Listen for your self. Compare Songbird with Winamp or Foobar. If you can't hear the difference get better gear.

@Joe, if this is true, then you should pass a blind test with flying colours. The reason I keep reiterating to run a blind test, is because I have proven people wrong before with one.

You are not the olny one that have done a blind test...
I did a test also before passing from mp3 320 to flac, and from DS to ASIO. The difference is always noticeable.

fede and I agree. I also have passed a dBT with MP3 vs Flac. The ASIO vs DS test is very, very easy to hear. IMHO MP3 files are not worth listening to no matter what the bit rate.

now we don't have news for pluggin asio in soungbird
ok don't use for this.
tank you

Btw, I don't work for POTI.. So there may be a plan on the books. These are only MY opinions. (I just hang out here a lot). However, we must consider a few facts:

1) Would you as a company spend thousands of dollars developing a feature for people who haven't proven to themselves scientifically there is a benefit? Development isn't free, which is why I'm highly recommend people do blind tests, where someone else toggles between asio/directsound/shared.I'm not demanding it, but I'm just saying, it would REALLY help your cause.

2) Its VERY well known throughout the industry that "Audiophiles" are VERY succeptable to placebo's. The reason is because so much money is spent.

3) Actually, this exactly same discussion has popped up many other places in regards to WASAPI. The discussion in summary, started with many people stating they had high end equipment, WASAPI was a clear difference in foobar, etc. The end result though, was VERY different. Anyone who ran a blind test discovered that they were unable to identify the difference. In the only case I saw where WASAPI did win, it turned out, it won because the person's shared audio format was set to crud quality

I guess another factor that should be taken into account is the OS. In XP, you are probably more likely to hear a difference then Windows Vista too (because the design of the audio stack changed significantly). So it may be worth mentioning which OS you are using too.

Just my thoughts. Performing blind tests is for your own benefit, not mine. It may also be worth testing WASAPI. Since WASAPI support is more widespread and offers mostly the same benefits, it would probably be easier to encourage someone to develop WASAPI drivers.

1. Been there done that. Passed the test. Was able to hear the difference with 100% accuracy.
2. Placebo's my a*s! Most of those so called "Audiophiles" have gear and speakers I would consign to the trash heap.
For example, any HT receiver based system is not high end.
3. I have real high end equipment. Check my signature on Audio Review's forums under the name JoeESP9. I can hear the difference and invite anyone over for a demo.
I currently use XP Pro. I will switch to Win7 after the first SP is released. Maybe the audio stack in Win7 will sound better, especially if it's based on the one from Vista.

@Joe.. Now that's what I call a response that is genuinely helpful, and would help the case to develop ASIO.

@Focused_Clarity. I'm not saying people can't hear it (although, WASAPI most couldn't). You must realise, that just because something has many technical advantages, doesn't always mean once deployed the advantages still exist, or that the advantages are noticeable. I don't debate whether or not they have advantages or not. "Technically" they do.

I also have NO interest whatsoever shooting down ideas with clear advantages. I'm simply helping you with your case. Compare "well, it seems better", and "I ran a blind test between the two, and was able to identify the music playing with ASIO enabled 100% of the time, out of 10 tests". What's more credible? The latter is certainly more useful to developers, and presents the case better.

I really don't believe this is much to ask. Its for your advantage, not mine (I no longer have an ASIO enabled soundcard, because I realised I'd rather use the money for something else, and I decided it was the music that mattered most).

Either way, you are free to do as you will. But please remember, results are the best way to argue a case, and the best way to prove there will significant results, is to perform a blind test.

Okay lets put it this way, if they do ever implement an ASIO driver then its going to be at least a year or 2 off because they still need to get the core media player functions, and to be completely honest you don't need an ASIO driver for core functionality. To be frank I'd much rather enjoy my music the way it is instead of worrying about how the bits go through my computer kernel. If I really cared I wouldn't be playing my music in a room which wasn't sound proof.

@Focused_Clarity Umm.. Look, I'm not going to argue with someone who claims blind testing, a technique used in every industry (ranging from music, to medicine) is "flawed".

The only conclusion I can draw out of what you said is:
1) You keep cracking on about the "technical aspects". But clearly any salesperson could slip you a sugar pill, because you don't really care about the experience. If they tell you its better, you will walk in with an optimistic attitude, and always hear a difference, whether it exists or not. You seem to believe that the placebo effect doesn't exist.
2) If someone disabled ASIO on your player (other then going into shared mode), I wonder how long it would take you to notice that its been done? Surely a guy like you would notice straight away even without seeing the computer is locked? That's what we want to find out. Whether the experience would change enough to be noticed.
3) Clearly not deaf. I passed professional audiology tests for aviation, with flying colours? And at the Applecentre I worked out, I also could hear the broadest frequency range out of all the staff. The fact you are implying my hearing is bad simply because you don't want to run a proper test says a-lot.

Joe did it right. And the more evidence that pops up that proves it can have an impact on the quality, and improve it enough to be noticeable, the more ASIO will be noticed.

I'm a curious guy, and I have no problem with being wrong. Personally, I couldn't care less about promoting Windows audio technologies. I'm simply interested in the real truth.

I'd also admit I agree with ethanjim. I care about the experience, and the reason I sold my extra soundcards and such, is that they never improved that (they just added something to brag about). Bad music will always be bad music, and good music will always be good music.

@Andrew: I am an advocate of blind testing to find the audio truth. By the same token, just because a phenomenon doesn't survive blind testing doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

However, I must object to your attempts to extend your own inabilities to hear differences to others. While your ability to hear into the high frequencies is a useful prerequisite for subjective hearing tests, it is not by itself sufficient. As Floyd Toole, who has run probably the world's two most extensive lab testing programs for sound quality, first in a publicly funded Canadian project, and now for Harman International will tell you, training is essential to getting good results.

Put another way, it's at least as important how the brain processes the impulses sent from the ears than how much bandwidth the ears attain.

In other words, if you don't know what to listen for, your results are questionable at best.

That said, as you know, from a strategic point of view, I don't think it actually matters. Placebo or not, important people will decide for or against Songbird based on Asio support.

@Usernaim. Whilst one can't be sure if the phenomenon exists or not by being aware of what they are listening to, Blind testing accurately determines if a difference can be heard and identify. If one doesn't hear a distinct difference in a blind test, it doesn't mean one doesn't exist, however, it does mean it isn't noticeable enough to change the experience.

Also, never said I couldn't hear a difference between ASIO actually, because I never said I did a blind test for ASIO (I've only ever properly tested WASAPI, where the experience was worse especially during song changeovers).

I do agree professionals can tweak by ear (a friend of mine who sets up audio equipment for gigs can do that), however, there are also an equal amount of people who think they can but are woefully off (try passing a guitar around the room, and people will tweak it to death).

Really, for me its a curiosity thing. I like results I can trust. Whilst quick testing is highly vulnerable to factors that may compromise the results, blind testing is more accurate, and more likely to provide realistic results.

I don't know about the rest of you but I solved the problem in the beginning by having a "good" system to listen to music. The PC music server I built was never expected to sound as good as my other sources. I'm using a SB X-Fi Pro Elite on an ASUS board with a Dual Core Athlon 64, 8Gb RAM and 2 1Tb SATA drives. The digital out from my sound card goes to an MSB DAC with all the options (including up and oversampling). If your curious about the rest of my gear see my signature in the Audio Review forums.

BTW: You don't need or want a soundproofed room for audio. What you want is a dedicated acoustically treated room. I'm fortunate enough to have one. I sacrificed my living room and dining room to create it. The gain in sound quality greatly overshadows the loss of my living and dining rooms.

G'day,

Btw, for those who are interested, Mike M coded a WASAPI plugin which you can download from http://getsatisfaction.com/songbird/t... (near the bottom).

Its a use at your own risk thing (as with any community coded plugin, its not officially supported by POTI).