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Please add an official Playlist Pane!
I just had an idea that would be fairly useful for (I assume) a lot of people, and shouldn't be (again, I assume) too hard to implement. It would be nice to have an option to show a playlist in a display pane! This way you could, for example, drag files directly into a playlist right where you wanted them without needing to switch to the playlist view to reorganize them or have any delays. I am aware that there is a "Now Playing" pane addon, but it doesn't preserve the contents of its playlist and creates an annoying and undeleteable playlist in the playlist view, and it also crashes the program currently if you rapidly add a lot of things to it by double-clicking, and I suppose the point of this is that I don't want to have to rely on a 3rd-party addon for something which I feel should be a basic function of the program. If this is at all possible, please let us do it! Thanks for all the good work so far, you've killed iTunes for me already and if you keep it up, you may even kill my beloved Foobar2000 as well! ^_^
I’m confident
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Tell me when this idea gets some attention.
The more people who like this idea, the more it gets noticed.
The more people who like this idea, the more it gets noticed.
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I've read most of the replies, and there are some really good points, so let me hopefully try and address them:
- Songbird add-ons aren't like most application plugins. They actually have use of every API within the app, so there isn't any inherent disadvantage to being a plugin in terms of efficiency, performance, or optimisation.
- The core Songbird developers generally try to focus on underlying platform issues, e.g. media decoding performance, database performance, etc. By focusing on platform issues that benefit all add-ons we can improve the performance for everyone (both users and developers)
- The functionality being described isn't core functionality, in the sense that it's not anything that requires platform work. This isn't to say that it isn't core functionality in the sense of "primary functionality". While I don't personally use it, I can certainly see that there are a number (at least 30!) that do. Because it's not platform work, given our limited resources and time, our core developers can only devote so much time to so many features, and since this feature can be implemented as an add-on, we'll have to punt on it for now.
- We run regular active user feedback surveys where users can tell us exactly what features they want in Songbird. We routinely look at the results of these surveys to help drive our decisions as to what to work on for the next release. While I can see from this thread that a number of you want this feature, please understand that there are a *ton* of things Songbird users want...
So let me try and anticipate one of the rebuttals that may come up now ;-)
But you (Songbird developers) build plenty of things, including add-ons, that aren't basic functionality!
True, but most of them are either "platform-y" such as device support (iPod, MTP) or media core support (Quicktime, Windows Media Player), or are "disruptive" in the sense of service-integrations that show what the platform is capable of (SHOUTcast, Concerts, Last.fm, etc.). It's important for us to work on the latter class of add-ons since it shows some of the differentiating features of Songbird, and help secure some really cool service partnerships.
Honestly I know that won't satisfy everybody. I appreciate everybody's input and passion... and perhaps if my own time frees up in the future I'll look into this, but please understand we are swamped with work already (including working on a number of features that you - our users - have been clamoring for for many many releases now, such as CD Rip/Burn, Normalisation, Cross-fading, etc. which all, for now, out number this type of feature request).
cheers,
steve
I’m hopeful people will understand
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The best points from everyone
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To the above:
It seems that the opposition to this feature can generally be summed up as: "this isn't something that Songbird is focusing on". Whether from a philosophical or resource-based standpoint, it looks like this will either be implemented later or not at all. I am fully aware that someone else can make an addon to replicate this functionality, but for reasons stated above, I just don't care. The problem that Songbird is going to face is that it is entering into a "market" where there are already a lot of very stable, VERY usable media players and trying to etch out a place for itself. To attract users, they either need to:
A: Do what other players already do, and do it BETTER than they do, or
B: Offer completely new features that are compelling.
They don't do A at all. Their interface design is largely that of an iTunes clone, and if you want a simple, inflexible, iTunes-like interface, iTunes does it better. In fact, iTunes does the "simple, inflexible, we-know-best" interface so well that I don't think Songbird stands a chance in that arena. The opposite of the iTunes philosophy is one that is tailored for power users - people who want to do things themselves, make things work the way they want, and have the program stay out of their way. foobar2000 is what I would consider a perfect example of this. You start with a blank window, and can stick with that or build a massive, screen-filling, panel-laden beast of a player with it. Songbird is customizable, but not enough to win over the power users.
As for B, Songbird is about average in the rest of the "basic" departments: it plays roughly the same files as everyone else, though at the moment it is less stable than many alternatives and doesn't support the formats it plays fully (no album art in FLAC files, for instance), so it offers no reason for people to switch from a compatibility or reliability standpoint. Things like Last FM are nice, but any feature in Songbird can already be found somewhere else either directly (Last FM runs in a lot of players) or indirectly (you can look up concerts for bands you like on Myspace, etc.), and while integration is potentially appealing, Songbird's implementation of features such as its web browser are not as good as just using the components separately. Songbird needs to be more than a bunch of random features stapled together - it needs to make users want to use it MORE than the things they already use to make playlists, find concerts, browse the web, and organize their media.
This interface problem presents a unique opportunity to the Songbird team - they already have about 90% of iTunes' elegance, and they have the chance to ALSO have foobar2000's customizability and "power user" appeal. They would be the first player to achieve an integration of function and form in the interface. The problem is, they want us to do it for them. I realize there are limits to what they can do, but users don't like to hear "if you want it, do it yourself", they want to just get the features they need and know that those features will always be there. It is far easier for me to run a virtual machine in seamless mode on OS X and use foobar2000 to play my music than it is for me to wait for some dude to code the functions I need into Songbird and then wait for that person to update their addon after every Songbird patch. Once I get the virtual machine set up, I can have a player that works EXACTLY how I want, without having to run around gathering addons. Time to set this up: about 2 hours. Time to wait for an addon: way longer. Most people won't do this, but on Windows, they will use either WMP/iTunes or foobar2000 or something in between like Winamp. On OS X, they will use iTunes or Cog. On Linux, I'd say the power users will use Amarok, and if they want simplicity they probably won't be using Linux anyway. The interface is, well... the way people interface with the application. If you can't meet people's needs with your interface, they won't 'interface' with you. Even if there were addons to do everything people wanted, the people making them won't be working together. There will not be a unification of style or functionality, and the program will feel fragmented. Hopefully, the team will reconsider putting this off indefinitely and at least put it in a distant spot on the roadmap so that it eventually gets done. I know I don't speak for everyone, but I speak for a hell of a lot of people when I say we won't be converting to Songbird until we have a reason to abandon the players we already know and love.
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@stevel:
I understand and appreciate that Songbird has to offer some fashionable killer apps (such as Mashtape, or last.fm support) that show the potential of its unique concept and create a buzz in the blogosphere.
However, as far as I can tell, Songbird is still an insider tip, mainly used by bloggers and power users that are open to trying out new stuff. Those are also the ones that will give you feedback in your surveys or collaborate on a site like this - most others will simply deinstall Songbird without taking a second glance if it doesn't live up to their expectations and keep on using their old players.
If you want to appeal to a wider audience, you should really consider the habits of these average users - and (sadly) a HUGE part of them uses either Wndows Media Player or Winamp.
Both of these players offer a "playlist pane" - so people that are used to these players will expect something similar in Songbird. Stuff like Mashtape is certainly nice to toy around with, but if something as basic as playback handling is impractical all the other stylish features won't make up for it.
You also mentioned the importance of improving the performance for everyone: how does iPod-support achieve this goal for me if I don't even own one?
A stable playlist pane would at least be something ALL users could profit from. Of course, I'm just exaggerating, but I 'd like to bring to your attention that usability is at least as essential as some of the "core functions" you mentioned.
This is also reflected in the number of related requests in this forum. There are numerous similar threads (and a lot more than our 30 requests):
- Suggestions for improving the Now Playing List: http://gsfn.us/t/ltz (46 requests - 7th rank in the most popular topics!)
- please make enque system, like in winamp: http://gsfn.us/t/pot (26 requests)
- Now playing feature w/o installing add-on: http://gsfn.us/t/k2j (18 requests)
- Right click song & queue song to play: http://gsfn.us/t/1uyv (16 requests)
These threads show that the issue certainly is not just one neglectable demand among "a *ton* of things Songbird users want"!
As for integrating a playlist pane "into the core":
I still think that this feature is SO essential that it should be integrated in the main program - but I guess what most people tried to express with "core" was just
the need for this function to..
1. work properly and elegantly, without additional memory loss or major bugs
2. get attention and support by the "official developers"
3. be shipped with the official releases.
If you'd at least make it an "official" recommended add-on (just like mashtape or last.fm) that can be installed during the first run, I guess most people would be happy with that. This way, those who wouldn't want to use it, could still decide not to, or simply deinstall it later.AND you'd be offering a basic and expected usability improvement to new users.
So, PLEASE make some of your resources available to the development of Moshy's add-on and ship it with the next release!
I’m hopeful that this will be discussed among the developers!?
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@Johann - I can guarantee you that the more Songbird relies on the add-on system for "it's" features, the worse it will get. The problem with fragmenting a program like this is that essential (and I can't stress essential enough) features are left in the hands of individuals and can be abandoned, forgotten, broken, or just not work well in the first place. The add-on that achieved this particular feature couldn't even handle multiple files being added via double-click and would crash the program. I am not going to use Songbird if half of the critical features are some third party's hobby. This isn't the Apple App Store, it is a music player. It should be as centralized as possible, simple, and useful. I am getting tired of the "Jack-of-all-trades, Master of none" mentality that programs and companies are falling into these days. This isn't a torrent client. This isn't a web browser. This isn't a system management tool. This isn't another Myspace. This isn't a gaming platform. It is a music player. If people want to add to THAT, then that is fine, but if Songbird doesn't even have the basic features that it needs to have in order to be a viable music player, then there isn't anything worth adding onto. Complete the program, THEN make addons.
I’m fine with foobar2000, but I'd like to love Songbird...!
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@prunn - The focus on playlists is one of the reasons I hate iTunes. The reason I use Songbird is because it isn't iTunes. It's extremely annoying when you want to quickly queue up some tracks from different albums to have to switch from window to window over and over again just because you need to reorganize your playlist, then not be able to see what is queued and look through the library for another song at the same time. In fact, it's pretty annoying to have to switch tabs/windows at all in a media player. If this program is going to work, it needs to be better than the alternatives, not the same or worse. I think that it IS a really big issue, frankly, since it is a basic feature that is missing (add-ons don't count).
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Inappropriate?This is a great idea and exactly what I came here to comment about. I love Songbird and it having this feature/functionality added will significantly improve my experience as well as many others.
I’m thankful
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Inappropriate?I had basically the same idea with a full playlist editor as a display pane on the side of the media librairy and with a listbox at the top of the pane to switch playlist currently editing
I’m excited
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Inappropriate?I have to agree on this one. It's the thing I miss the most with Songbird
I’m excited
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Inappropriate?I have used numerous Music Playing software including Musicmatch, Winamp, Windows Media Player and others. They all have the ability to drag-n-drop to an active Now Playing Playlist. This is a feature that would is missing from Songbird that would make it better than all of the others. Without this feature, Songbird is fairly crippled in comparison. Please someone address this so tht Songbird will be more functional. Songbird RULES. -
Inappropriate?This is one of the most basic features of any music player - and so far it's missing! Without this, creating playlists is just complicated and no fun at all..
It really should be implemented in the next release.
What does the Songbird team have to say about this?
I’m annoyed
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Inappropriate?well... you can always drag and drop into the playlist title just like in itunes so it's not a really big issue but would be nice to get it in the future
I’m confident
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Inappropriate?@Prunn: of course that is a way to add songs to the end of a playlist - but you still have to switch back and forth between playlist and library to put the songs in the right order or simply to control which songs are already included - each move from one view to the other takes time to load and you have to do a new search just to return to where you were..
Wouldn't it be better to be able to drag&drop songs directly where you want them in the playlist? I find it kind of strange that this wasn't included from the beginning.. just like the missing "now playing" list (and yes, I know that there was an extension for this issue - but it doesn't work in the current release).
Concerning usability, Songbird still has a far way to go - I'm really looking forward to future releases, but in the meantime I have to rely on other players, such as MediaMonkey.
I’m impatient
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Inappropriate?I agree with killersquirrel 100% and must say that they explained the situation perfectly. Songbird will not be able to compete with the other players until this issue is addressed. Unfortunately, I must stop using Songbird until this is fixed. It's too frustrating to use the way it is.
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Inappropriate?@prunn - The focus on playlists is one of the reasons I hate iTunes. The reason I use Songbird is because it isn't iTunes. It's extremely annoying when you want to quickly queue up some tracks from different albums to have to switch from window to window over and over again just because you need to reorganize your playlist, then not be able to see what is queued and look through the library for another song at the same time. In fact, it's pretty annoying to have to switch tabs/windows at all in a media player. If this program is going to work, it needs to be better than the alternatives, not the same or worse. I think that it IS a really big issue, frankly, since it is a basic feature that is missing (add-ons don't count).
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@Niophe: Agreed. -
even though I`m happy with the add-on
IT should be a feature! -
I don't think that add-ons don't count. The Add-on system rocks! For me, every feature should be an add-on! Certainly, a feature that can be done as an add-on should not be integrated imho. NowPlaying v.0.6.3 works pretty good for me (it can be improved, of course).
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@ Johann: That is a ridiculous argument. "works *PRETTY* good for me" illustrates exactly why this should be in the core build. A now playing list needs to be something that works flawlessly for every user...not just 'pretty good' for some.
The addon system is a great idea, but certain things should NOT be implemented that way. Especially if they are vital to simple play back and the user experience.
...The more ridiculous part of this is that this is even something being debated at all...come on guys. -
I entirely agree Johann, add-ons do count!
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Inappropriate?I agree 100% with Changed. The lack of a such a basic feature as a "Now Playing" window that can be organized via drag-n-drop or saved as a permanent playlist is the reason I have stopped using Songbird. I loved the other features but the frustration of not having this feature makes Songbird not worth using IMHO.
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Inappropriate?Responding to Johann:
The add-on you refer to doesn't work with the latest release and that is the trouble with all add-ons. Add-on's will always lag the latest release. That's why a "Now Playing" feature should be built in to SongBird. I will not use any Music software that doesn't support a "Now Playing" feature. And, I can't get this add-on to work with the latest release.
I’m frustrated
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If you aren't going to use software that doesn't include a "Now Playing" feature then don't use it.
Songbird is all about choices that's why it's open source. -
@ Carlos K: I think you're missing the point of this thread buddy.
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Inappropriate?the more I think about it:
yes, it should be included in the core and a top priority, since it is a very VERY! basic feature!
so EVERYBODY reading this and agrees, please raise your "voice".
Songbird definitely has the potential to become the Firefox of the Mediaplayers!
Good night and Good luck!
I’m hopeful
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Nothing that isn't explicitly required for Songbird to function as a media player (I said EXPLICITLY) needs to be a core feature. Allow me to elaborate.
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In my opinion a now playing list as Songbird currently stands is a core feature that is explicitly needed. Furthermore, after reading your *elaborate* post, I find it VERY hard to believe that you would feel otherwise.
A 'what's playing now and next' list should not even be called a feature. It's just simply what any media player should be able to inherently do. Include an option to turn it off or on if you like, but still it should be there. -
@nicbot: That is what and add-on is; an entirely optional inclusion of an additional feature. (The on and off switch are whether or not the feature is installed)
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Then make it an official one that works well. However it is accomplished is fine. It just needs to be solid and supported.
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@nicbot: I agree man. And something I "need" may be entirely different from what you guys "need" (like the now playing pane) which is why I think *almost* everything should be an add-on that way everyone can be happy. And I also think that Now Playing should be an official add-on if so many people want the feature (but it should not be a core feature)
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Inappropriate?I agree with qayws 100%. Songbird does have the potential to be the top Music player if the developers will address this issue. Otherwise, it's not worth using. Any developers listening??
I’m confident
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Inappropriate?@Johann - I can guarantee you that the more Songbird relies on the add-on system for "it's" features, the worse it will get. The problem with fragmenting a program like this is that essential (and I can't stress essential enough) features are left in the hands of individuals and can be abandoned, forgotten, broken, or just not work well in the first place. The add-on that achieved this particular feature couldn't even handle multiple files being added via double-click and would crash the program. I am not going to use Songbird if half of the critical features are some third party's hobby. This isn't the Apple App Store, it is a music player. It should be as centralized as possible, simple, and useful. I am getting tired of the "Jack-of-all-trades, Master of none" mentality that programs and companies are falling into these days. This isn't a torrent client. This isn't a web browser. This isn't a system management tool. This isn't another Myspace. This isn't a gaming platform. It is a music player. If people want to add to THAT, then that is fine, but if Songbird doesn't even have the basic features that it needs to have in order to be a viable music player, then there isn't anything worth adding onto. Complete the program, THEN make addons.
I’m fine with foobar2000, but I'd like to love Songbird...!
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Inappropriate?Changed: Where do I sign! Couldn't have said it better myself.
@Johann: Changed is spot on. The addon system is not for every program, or program type unless it is implemented correctly. That said, I would like to point out that IMO Songbird should still be in beta. You can't just pass off unfinished work of basic functionality to the 'addon' community and call it good...lazy and insulting.
I’m frustrated
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Inappropriate?I 100% agree with everyone in this post except Johann. This software has a ways to go to make it compete with the other popular music players. Although it does have some nice features. However, there are too many basic features missing that most other music player software already have. I will not be using Songbird until it becomes more mature and I'm deleting it from my Machine. When I get some news that it has made major improvements, then I will try it again.
I’m frustrated
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I've had good experiences with Songbird and for me it's already a better experience than iTunes. It hasn't crashed once and the ability to customise is great. Firefox is another example of a program that benefits hugely from add-ins, it's a good strategy. Although in this case I agree that a 'now playing' feature should be put in the main program. No need to get indignant, people, it's not like you paid money for it or anything!! The beauty of open-source efforts is that they are always improving.
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I've had good experiences with Songbird and for me it's already a better experience than iTunes. It hasn't crashed once and the ability to customise is great. Firefox is another example of a program that benefits hugely from add-ins, it's a good strategy. Although in this case I agree that a 'now playing' feature should be put in the main program. No need to get indignant, people, it's not like you paid money for it or anything!! The beauty of open-source efforts is that they are always improving.
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Inappropriate?@Oceanic: First, it's not hard to have a better experience than in iTunes imo. Second, yes Firefox is a great example of an already solid core product being enhanced by an active user community. The key here is that you need a solid core product first, which I'm sorry to say that Songbird is not **yet**.
"No need to get indignant, people, it's not like you paid money for it or anything!! The beauty of open-source efforts is that they are always improving."
...Yes, but the beauty of the internet and this forum is that we have a voice and are allowed to use it. If we just sit back and let things like this slide, how much better do you think it would get? And how long do you think it would take??
Even in open source projects and especially in media players there is a certain level of expected quality and usability.
I’m wanting to use Songbird, but it doesn't like me.
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Inappropriate?@oceanic - It's not necessarily indignance, we are just trying to bring this issue to the developers' attention. I like Songbird, I'm just saying I think they are heading down a dark path if they rely on others to give them basic features. I hope they listen. I haven't personally deleted Songbird, but I don't use it as a player, either... I sort of just test it. And as for the Firefox thing, see my above comment. Without any add-ons at all, Firefox is a stable, fully featured, secure, and reliable web browser (even though things like NoScript or Adblock Plus are awesome additions). Songbird without add-ons is useless to me. Therein lies the difference.
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Inappropriate?I don't use songbird just for this. please have a look on the winamp systeme, it's perfect. Do the same and I will switch
I’m frustrated, i want this feature
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This is one of the best points
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Use winamp if it's perfect, personally I'd like to see a music player with an addon community like firefox has, it'd be revolutionary to see something where the users have a big say in how it functions. At the same time I believe the Playlist Pane should be a core feature, it's something that would let you slap music in and then let it roll without having to create a new playlist on the left side, rename, delete, make a new one, so on. It'd just be a handy feature overall and would make the experience that much better. Addons are great but when the community is currently a bit too small to heavily rely on them it'd be nice to see it either as a core feature or see the official devs create a "official addons" area where they create some addons we think should be "core" but others do not. It would mean we could get an official playlist pane as an addon but it would be from devs that are very knowledgeable at what they're doing rather than just someone tinkering around in spare time. I haven't tried the playlist pane addons but haven't seen anything that says it's well enough off yet. I'll look into trying it..
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@ TyvdAheksy: Good point. Thank you...Carlos could benefit from this comment ;)
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Inappropriate?Follow the Unix Philosophy:
Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface.
Excessive "core" features are for losers. (sorry for the name calling but I feel strongly about this) You don't need to pack tons of features into the core, it's stupid (sorry again) and downright crufty. Not to mention the bloat that it causes. Honestly, how many people use, or would like to use, the now playing feature? If the answer is more than, say, 80-90% then it should be a core feature, if not then it is bloat.
And really how hard is it to install an add-on? Click, type, click, click, click. And you're done. (I do agree that some add-ons are less the professional but that is as much the developers fault as yours. If you dislike the function of the add-on so much, make one yourself. Ah, the beauty of community driven software!)5 Comments Add a comment
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Do you honestly not use a 'what's playing now and next' queue/list of any sort currently or in the past? This would not be bloat. In fact if left an addon it has more potential to be bloat then if built in...and i'm speaking ONLY for this function and nothing else.
I think that if built in, it would also allow for greater addon's to be developed for this sort of function since the hooks and ground work would already be there.
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@nicbot: I do not use a queue/list of any kind. I just double click on a random song and set songbird to shuffle. Also, extensions can depend on one another. Anyone can build an add-on that builds upon the now playing extension.
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First, no not anyone...Not everyone has the time or knowledge needed.
Second, that's great that you ONLY shuffle your entire library or pre-made playlists...with that said, you no longer have stake in this topic since you have no idea what we're talking about here. lol -
Carlos I see your point and I thin you add to a wothwhile discussion.
But Songbird I a program that defies the UNIX philosophy in its core being a Webbrowser and Mediaplayer in one.
So if you are a follower and believer of UNIX SOngbird is nothing for you.
And Installing an Add-on is easy. But the released Songbird 1.0 had to wait for for 3-4 weeks until the "now playing" add-on was beta released and that was a long bad wait for me.
Not everybody can code or has the time to. If you can and if it is easy, team up with moshy and join the developers to write the feature, we would certainly all love that. YOu can then even leav it at ADD-on if you like but keep it synchronized to any Songbird release schedule!!! -
Hmmmm...that sounds like the best way to do it. I'll look into that. If I can find some time I'll see about writing a Now Playing add-on.
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Inappropriate?In response to Carlos K; It is not hard to install an add-on. That is not the issue. The issue is the "Now playing" add-on does not work with the latest release of Songbird. Since the "Now playing" feature is considered important by many as can be seen by this thread and doesn't work, then it should be part of the core product. Even when it does work, it has some deficiencies. That is the problem with most add-on's; they have to be reworked to work correctly with the latest release and who is going to take this responsibility if the author of the add-on is no longer available.
I’m frustrated
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Inappropriate?Then try to convince a developer to write it properly or do it yourself. Don't try to force your playing preferences on me! Theres a reason that I don't like WMP, and several other media players, it's because it forces you to use what the developers think is the most effective way to listen to your music. As I said before songbird is about choice. You can choose what features are included in your particular installation.
Trying to make something that the majority of people don't use a core feature is rather counter-productive, don't you think? Couldn't the developers spend their time on more important issues, like memory management (heavens knows Songbird has trouble with that!), library searching (which I would say is finally doing well), and general application stability and speed?
You really should read this post. It really sums up what I am trying to say about add-ons.1 Comment Add a comment
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Carlos you're not making much sense in this case.
You pushing your Unix philosophy as an argument against this point, although well meant I'm sure, is not a sound one...at least not how you put it.
Furthermore your post was a bit long winded and honestly doesn't disprove any of our arguments for the core addition of this function.
Just to give you an example of just how mislead your argument seems to be in this case...
You state (along with many other things) that at the core, a media player should include "Web Browsing". Now explain to me how this is not bloat in your world and why a media player should even come close to affecting and dictating my web browsing experience? ...There is no reason. And just the fact that you included this in your mission statement of sorts post, discredits your entire argument imho...sorry homie ;) -
Inappropriate?@nicbot: Songbird doesn't dictate your browsing experience. You have to consider what Songbird is. It isn't a web browser. It's a web media player. It is meant to be a media player with web browsing capability. Why? Because most of the media that people (like you an me listen to) is on the web. Songbird makes it possible to find media, download it (or not), and play it. This is the purpose of Songbird.
Do you need a "Now Playing" extension to do that? No. And don't include it in the "core." Go ahead and fix the extension or write a new one but don't cruft up my media player.2 Comments Add a comment
This is one of the best points
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You clearly have the wrong attitude. YOUR media player? Its not YOUR media player, its an open source, community driven media player...at least thats what I thought.
It is very clear a lot of people would like this (quite simple) feature to be a part of Songbirds core. I too would like it, and I dont feel its an obscure enough feature to justify abstracting it to an add-on.
The "bloat" added by a now playing list (probably something like a smart playlist is how I'd approach it) would be minimal I'm sure.
I just hope that, despite the fact Carlos makes it sound like he really is the only developer coding Songbird, that some of the many other developers will be a bit more reasonable. -
Songbird is meant, in my opinion, to be personal (ie customizable) media player. Like Firefox it's strength lies in its ability to be extended. If you notice Firefox has few or no features that everyone would like but are available as add-ons.
For example, Ad-Block plus offers a must have ad-block feature. Mozilla could develop their own add-on with the same capabilities and include it by default, but they don't because they want to foster a strong add-on community and that isn't going to happen if the app devs spend their time writing add-ons that the community is entirely capable of writing.
Obviously in the case of the Now Playing add-on there appears to be a problem but still, fostering a strong community of developers is more important than including what you appear to see as a vital part of the application. -
Inappropriate?@ Carlos: (sigh)... man you're making this fun :)
You said;
"It (Songbird) is meant to be a media player with web browsing capability...."
How about we start with a media player with media playback capabilities and go from there? If you had to ask me which should be built in functionality between a 'now playing' list or a browser...???? If you said browser go back to your bloat-ware my friend.
"...Why? Because most of the media that people (like you an me listen to) is on the web."
Hosted on the web, no. Information available on the web about music in my library, yes. Should i get to choose weather or not my media player talks to the web or even takes me there, absolutely....now we're getting off the topic of this thread.
I'm starting to wonder if you even know what a "Now Playing" list even is.
By the way this is from the SB home page:
::::::::::::::::::::::
Songbird is an open-source customizable music player that's under active development.
We're working on creating a non-proprietary, cross platform, extensible tool that will help enable new ways to playback, manage, and discover music.
::::::::::::::::::::::
...Well currently Songbird has problems playing back and managing music. It can discover it fine imo. Hence why this thread exists...Please add BASIC playback management and functionality.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all about open extensibility. I just feel that some core function is needed first. I think TyvdAheksy ^^ put it well. -
Inappropriate?@nicbot: I know what a Now Playing list is (I used WMP for a long time and the only way to play media in WMP is to use the Now Playing list) and I'm not debating the usefulness of the feature. I'm talking about the overall experience of the application, and perhaps not even that. I'm mostly talking about philosophy. Which is, in summary: If a feature is used by less than 80% of songbirds user base and it isn't crucial to the function of the application then it should be included as an add-on.
Can this cause some issues? Potentially. Sometimes extension developers don't do a good job, sometimes they do. But don't ask for something to be included in the apps core just because the developer that was working on your add-on lost interest or abandoned the project.
The initial premise of songbird is this: "Songbird is a desktop Web player, a digital jukebox and Web browser mash-up." (Taken from early mission statement from the original Songbird website) And you have to take the mission of the application into account.
Take for example Thunderbird, it is a messaging application for checking email and the like. Cramming something like a media player or a full fledged web browser into it would be cruft (and bloat for that matter) because it is outside of the scope of the application. It's job is to check your mail. Not browse the web and/or play your media.
Songbirds mission, in the spirit of Web 2.0, is to create a digital jukebox and Web browser mash-up. Both web browsing and media playblack are within it's scope. Its job is to facilitate the discovery of media and play and organize it for you. (I'll attest that Songbird organizational skills are a little iffy but it looks like they're getting there) And I'm sure that plenty of evidence could be found that the web browsing part of the application is being ignored. (the Print feature didn't make it in until Songbird 1.1pre build 930 or so) -
Inappropriate?Why are we turning this into a debate. It's demand is shown by how many people "Like this idea" the devs will decide once it reaches (or doesn't) a specific amount that they deem as "High demand" (or not..) I trust they'll make the correct decision. Bickering back and forth isn't doing anything but bulking this idea page up.
I’m meh..
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I'm sorry for filling up this discussion with debate. I just wanted to get the point across that I don't think that any feature that isn't key to the function of Songbird itself shouldn't be core. (Which I think I've said many times.) And, if I can find some time, and as I said a few moments ago, I'll look into writing and maintaining a Now Playing Add-on (official maybe?)
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Inappropriate?If enough people think that a now playing pane should be a core feature (and I think enough people have expressed the need for this), then it should be a core feature and not an add-on for many of the reasons expressed earlier. Just because you wouldn't use it doesn't mean it shouldn't be a core feature. Just because you don't use "copy and paste" doesn't mean that others won't.2 Comments Add a comment
This is one of the best points
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The way I see it is if more than 80% of users use the feature then it should be core. Otherwise is should be an add-on. And I would say that a minimum of 80% of users use copy-and-paste.
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@CK: So where do you get your insider information about user practices?
The way I see it, you've made your point clear - and I don't see how bloating this discussion conforms to your beloved unix philosophy. -
Inappropriate?I've read most of the replies, and there are some really good points, so let me hopefully try and address them:
- Songbird add-ons aren't like most application plugins. They actually have use of every API within the app, so there isn't any inherent disadvantage to being a plugin in terms of efficiency, performance, or optimisation.
- The core Songbird developers generally try to focus on underlying platform issues, e.g. media decoding performance, database performance, etc. By focusing on platform issues that benefit all add-ons we can improve the performance for everyone (both users and developers)
- The functionality being described isn't core functionality, in the sense that it's not anything that requires platform work. This isn't to say that it isn't core functionality in the sense of "primary functionality". While I don't personally use it, I can certainly see that there are a number (at least 30!) that do. Because it's not platform work, given our limited resources and time, our core developers can only devote so much time to so many features, and since this feature can be implemented as an add-on, we'll have to punt on it for now.
- We run regular active user feedback surveys where users can tell us exactly what features they want in Songbird. We routinely look at the results of these surveys to help drive our decisions as to what to work on for the next release. While I can see from this thread that a number of you want this feature, please understand that there are a *ton* of things Songbird users want...
So let me try and anticipate one of the rebuttals that may come up now ;-)
But you (Songbird developers) build plenty of things, including add-ons, that aren't basic functionality!
True, but most of them are either "platform-y" such as device support (iPod, MTP) or media core support (Quicktime, Windows Media Player), or are "disruptive" in the sense of service-integrations that show what the platform is capable of (SHOUTcast, Concerts, Last.fm, etc.). It's important for us to work on the latter class of add-ons since it shows some of the differentiating features of Songbird, and help secure some really cool service partnerships.
Honestly I know that won't satisfy everybody. I appreciate everybody's input and passion... and perhaps if my own time frees up in the future I'll look into this, but please understand we are swamped with work already (including working on a number of features that you - our users - have been clamoring for for many many releases now, such as CD Rip/Burn, Normalisation, Cross-fading, etc. which all, for now, out number this type of feature request).
cheers,
steve
I’m hopeful people will understand
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please see below
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Inappropriate?In response to Stevel; I have already stopped using Songbird & deleted it from my machine simply because the navigation is not "user friendly". By that I mean the lack of a "Now Playing" feature such as almost all music software have is a total show stopper. The other features you mention are also "nice to have's" but if this basic feature cannot be addressed, then IMHO I can't see SongBird as being any major competition to the other music players that do have this most critical feature. Just my two cents. I believe that the bottom line, is that any Music players must be easy to use and SongBird is lacking in this regard. I will try it again when I get word that this deficiency has been addressed. I would suggest that the developers of SongBird go to any other Music Player and check on the ease of use that a "Now Playing" feature provides.
I’m sad
1 person thinks
this is one of the best points
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Inappropriate?Thank you for adding to this leviathan thread. I also noticed that library sorting, automatic tagging, CD/RIP burn,and normalisation receive much more input than the "now playing" issue.
For me : my library is sorted, my tags are fine , when I add music I tag the albums cover.....I even normalized some mp3 using a 3rd party program.
I use songbird as a MEDIAPLAYER and mediabrowser not an organizer!!
Songbird is a program that helps discover new music and this s where the "now playing" kicks in.
Yes I can use automatic services like LastFM....
But see the way I use it:
I put some albums and or songs into a playing queue and use songbird to
browse Facebook, my Mail account .....
See this e.g. some friend in facebook became a fan of a band I do not know.
so I go to myspace or the band homepage and check out this band.
Now what I would like to do is, put the song on their page into the now playing queue (next song or last song) without having to press pause in songbird and and even being able to leave the bands homepage maybe to visit some befriended bands hompage or other band of this label.
I know that pandora and last FM are similiar but sometimes I like to check Wikipedia......or other sources for music and do not like to be restricted to a single service.
These services also do not include a lot of local bands, small country foreign bands I like........
What I love about songbird is that it is open to the whole web it should stay that way.
Finally the issue of feature, add-on, core feature and so on:
I aggree with CarlosK about the good thing having a customizeable Program.(he calls it UNIX Philosophy)
Songbird should be stable and highly customizeable.
Use litte memory.....
Yes it should play as many formats as possible; maybe even the decoders available could be selectable and stay compatible to your walkman whatsoever! This Is what Steve I calls core.
The words core feature and so on are nit the important issue...
But not to lose Users: Some add-ons should be released synchronized to songbird releases. because people updating sonbdird all of a sudden might be losing a important function to them and might wander on to another player.
If synchronized release is not possible;
the add-on website should reflect that so that at least it is esay to stay with the bird-add-on-combo you love and wait for the combo to update..
thanks for listening,
qways
I’m still happy even though
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Inappropriate?@stevel:
I understand and appreciate that Songbird has to offer some fashionable killer apps (such as Mashtape, or last.fm support) that show the potential of its unique concept and create a buzz in the blogosphere.
However, as far as I can tell, Songbird is still an insider tip, mainly used by bloggers and power users that are open to trying out new stuff. Those are also the ones that will give you feedback in your surveys or collaborate on a site like this - most others will simply deinstall Songbird without taking a second glance if it doesn't live up to their expectations and keep on using their old players.
If you want to appeal to a wider audience, you should really consider the habits of these average users - and (sadly) a HUGE part of them uses either Wndows Media Player or Winamp.
Both of these players offer a "playlist pane" - so people that are used to these players will expect something similar in Songbird. Stuff like Mashtape is certainly nice to toy around with, but if something as basic as playback handling is impractical all the other stylish features won't make up for it.
You also mentioned the importance of improving the performance for everyone: how does iPod-support achieve this goal for me if I don't even own one?
A stable playlist pane would at least be something ALL users could profit from. Of course, I'm just exaggerating, but I 'd like to bring to your attention that usability is at least as essential as some of the "core functions" you mentioned.
This is also reflected in the number of related requests in this forum. There are numerous similar threads (and a lot more than our 30 requests):
- Suggestions for improving the Now Playing List: http://gsfn.us/t/ltz (46 requests - 7th rank in the most popular topics!)
- please make enque system, like in winamp: http://gsfn.us/t/pot (26 requests)
- Now playing feature w/o installing add-on: http://gsfn.us/t/k2j (18 requests)
- Right click song & queue song to play: http://gsfn.us/t/1uyv (16 requests)
These threads show that the issue certainly is not just one neglectable demand among "a *ton* of things Songbird users want"!
As for integrating a playlist pane "into the core":
I still think that this feature is SO essential that it should be integrated in the main program - but I guess what most people tried to express with "core" was just
the need for this function to..
1. work properly and elegantly, without additional memory loss or major bugs
2. get attention and support by the "official developers"
3. be shipped with the official releases.
If you'd at least make it an "official" recommended add-on (just like mashtape or last.fm) that can be installed during the first run, I guess most people would be happy with that. This way, those who wouldn't want to use it, could still decide not to, or simply deinstall it later.AND you'd be offering a basic and expected usability improvement to new users.
So, PLEASE make some of your resources available to the development of Moshy's add-on and ship it with the next release!
I’m hopeful that this will be discussed among the developers!?
6 people think
this is one of the best points
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Inappropriate?To the above:
It seems that the opposition to this feature can generally be summed up as: "this isn't something that Songbird is focusing on". Whether from a philosophical or resource-based standpoint, it looks like this will either be implemented later or not at all. I am fully aware that someone else can make an addon to replicate this functionality, but for reasons stated above, I just don't care. The problem that Songbird is going to face is that it is entering into a "market" where there are already a lot of very stable, VERY usable media players and trying to etch out a place for itself. To attract users, they either need to:
A: Do what other players already do, and do it BETTER than they do, or
B: Offer completely new features that are compelling.
They don't do A at all. Their interface design is largely that of an iTunes clone, and if you want a simple, inflexible, iTunes-like interface, iTunes does it better. In fact, iTunes does the "simple, inflexible, we-know-best" interface so well that I don't think Songbird stands a chance in that arena. The opposite of the iTunes philosophy is one that is tailored for power users - people who want to do things themselves, make things work the way they want, and have the program stay out of their way. foobar2000 is what I would consider a perfect example of this. You start with a blank window, and can stick with that or build a massive, screen-filling, panel-laden beast of a player with it. Songbird is customizable, but not enough to win over the power users.
As for B, Songbird is about average in the rest of the "basic" departments: it plays roughly the same files as everyone else, though at the moment it is less stable than many alternatives and doesn't support the formats it plays fully (no album art in FLAC files, for instance), so it offers no reason for people to switch from a compatibility or reliability standpoint. Things like Last FM are nice, but any feature in Songbird can already be found somewhere else either directly (Last FM runs in a lot of players) or indirectly (you can look up concerts for bands you like on Myspace, etc.), and while integration is potentially appealing, Songbird's implementation of features such as its web browser are not as good as just using the components separately. Songbird needs to be more than a bunch of random features stapled together - it needs to make users want to use it MORE than the things they already use to make playlists, find concerts, browse the web, and organize their media.
This interface problem presents a unique opportunity to the Songbird team - they already have about 90% of iTunes' elegance, and they have the chance to ALSO have foobar2000's customizability and "power user" appeal. They would be the first player to achieve an integration of function and form in the interface. The problem is, they want us to do it for them. I realize there are limits to what they can do, but users don't like to hear "if you want it, do it yourself", they want to just get the features they need and know that those features will always be there. It is far easier for me to run a virtual machine in seamless mode on OS X and use foobar2000 to play my music than it is for me to wait for some dude to code the functions I need into Songbird and then wait for that person to update their addon after every Songbird patch. Once I get the virtual machine set up, I can have a player that works EXACTLY how I want, without having to run around gathering addons. Time to set this up: about 2 hours. Time to wait for an addon: way longer. Most people won't do this, but on Windows, they will use either WMP/iTunes or foobar2000 or something in between like Winamp. On OS X, they will use iTunes or Cog. On Linux, I'd say the power users will use Amarok, and if they want simplicity they probably won't be using Linux anyway. The interface is, well... the way people interface with the application. If you can't meet people's needs with your interface, they won't 'interface' with you. Even if there were addons to do everything people wanted, the people making them won't be working together. There will not be a unification of style or functionality, and the program will feel fragmented. Hopefully, the team will reconsider putting this off indefinitely and at least put it in a distant spot on the roadmap so that it eventually gets done. I know I don't speak for everyone, but I speak for a hell of a lot of people when I say we won't be converting to Songbird until we have a reason to abandon the players we already know and love.
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^^ = Nail on the head
Wow. Nicely put Changed. I couldn't add anything to that except for my signature ;) Well done.
I don't use SB any longer for these reasons and I will not until it becomes more usable for my needs...and I don't feel I'm in the minority here too.
I'll be waiting and watching for an update, but until then my fingers are crossed that the dev team will step back and look at exactly what it is they are trying to accomplish here...and I hope that in the mean time someone else doesn't beat them to the punch.
That's it for me! -
Inappropriate?@ Niophe, killersquirrel, nicbot, ppmaster, (and anyone else that keeps yammering about this topic)
Story:
Since Songbird lacks this o-so-necessary feature and it Sucks... Could you guys please get together and build THE PERFECT media player for me!!? PLEASE!?!?! Just code up something so awesome so that it makes me switch media players immediately without going back to my old one! And of course I want all the features that iTunes, WMP, foobar, Winamp, and banshee have too...
O, and can I have it by the end of the month?
What I'm trying to say is give the developers a break!! You have no clue how much time and passion they put into their job! I bet most, if not all, continue to work on Songbird past the typical 8-hour work day, and maybe even dream about how they can make Songbird better!
You guys seem to think that this is a feature that EVERYBODY uses, and thinks it's just plain silly that it's not included by default.. Sure I have some basic features that I would like to see in Songbird, but I know that 'I' am not 'Everyone'. And I will be patient for those features.. If, Songbird loses users like you, that's your loss, because you are missing the big picture on what Songbird's future has in store as an open customizable media player. You'll be back though, cause you'll keep hearing about Songbird's success and feature implementations release after release... across the internet...from your friends...
Anyway, sorry for loving Songbird...
As TyvdAheksy, please stop bickering back and forth. And please send the developers your apologies and some love:)
Keep up the great work Songbird Team!
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I agree with several points you made, namely: What you said in the second paragraph:
What I'm trying to say is give the developers a break!! You have no clue how much time and passion they put into their job! I bet most, if not all, continue to work on Songbird past the typical 8-hour work day, and maybe even dream about how they can make Songbird better!
That is so true! The Songbird Team is an awesome group of developers! -
And none of us ever said they weren't. :P
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This reply was removed on 01/23/09.
see the change log -
[private information removed],
Thank you for telling me to get a blood pressure check.
Thank you for saying I haven't done anything worthwhile (Lets just say: I have, and continue to do more work than you ever will for Songbird, in ways that you are not aware of ;)
Thank you for calling me a flamer!
Thank you for telling me to GTFO and stop wasting your time!
Thank you for calling me a moron!
Now that my thank you's are out of the way. I just don't see a positive thing you said about Songbird in reply to stevel's post... let alone expanding on the "official playlist pane" topic.. It just seems that a lot of your (and many other people's) replys to posts are more in a pessimistic way.. Sorry if I misunderstood.. I am all for community feedback, in any way, It does nothing but help.. it's just this thread was getting a little off topic sometimes (by many people, which is fine) but I bet the developers don't really have the time to sift through every comment.. But I know every comment is made with the hope of making Songbird better, after all you wouldn't be here in the first place..
The main point of my post was to help people calm down, continue to have patience with the Songbird team, and know that they are here for us. I guess It didn't work. My intention was not to 'insult' any of you, and I don't think I did, sorry if it seemed that way. I love you all (after all, you use Songbird)! You can continue to say whatever you feel, I just wanted to put in my two cents :)
Sincerely,
'Joe' -
This reply was removed on 01/23/09.
see the change log -
Inappropriate?@everyone Thank you all for you ideas and opinions. It's obvious from all the topics concerning adding the 'Now Playing' that a subset of users are interested in this feature. Personally, I would love to see that in Songbird. Heck, if would be awesome to use one of the side panels for it.
I think some of us are willing to wait on this feature as part of the core or as a functioning add-on. I myself use Media Monkey and there are features in that program I wish Songbird would have and vice-versa. All I know is that Songbird despite its flaws has more potential and non head banging irritation than Itunes.
@Joe I understand your frustration but there is no reason for you to be patronizing toward people who are honestly trying to help out. They are just as passionate about this program as you. The developers ask for our input not for us to just sit by & hope they give us a feature we want. If so, I might as well go back to using Itunes.
I’m hoping everyone will take it down a notch
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Inappropriate?@ Joe The Flamer: No apologies here. How does a voice get heard if nobody opens their mouth? Hitler called and he want's his fascist ideals back Joe ;)
Even though I disagree with you I feel that your opinion is still worth being heard and expressed. Furthermore, I would never condone or support blind consumerism in any case...which is what you seem to be all about... I'm just trying to make a potentially good product even better in -my opinion- ...why?? Because in the end I want to use the best product out there :)
I'm rooting for SB...That's the ONLY reason I'm still here on these boards showing my support for ideas.
I’m thinking this thread is getting out of hand.
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Inappropriate?Hey! I found an Equalizer app for mac. Its free, and called AudioHijack. You can equalize a songbird "session" very easily.
http://www.rogueamoeba.com/legacy/
[edit] after a while, it will mess up your sound quality unless you register ;(
I’m thought i was all set, but i was tricked
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Inappropriate?The biggest problem with iTunes is the lack of a playlist pane. The program buries your currently playing list into the library itself, and it makes it feel difficult to make a playlist or know what one iTunes is playing through. I just wanted to say that I agree with people who are saying that this is something core to the program and not just fit for an addon. As Chrome was the first browser in some time to change some of the standards of browsers, I think Songbird should be willing to break away from the format of iTunes in some regards to fix its mistakes. For example, if the playlist pane is built into the program and if it displays your now playing list, the now playing album's artwork could be placed more fittingly in that pane rather than the main navigation pane, where it doesn't seem to belong. In any case though, a good start would be to have the playlist pane integrated into the program and see how it affects the program's interface from there.
1 person thinks
this is one of the best points
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Inappropriate?Just to reiterate here...
After not using Songbird for months due to lack of this feature and other bugs, I just updated and tried again to much dismay. I added the NowPlaying list add-on again to see if there has been any progress made and I must say I am still frustrated and disappointed. I find it hard to understand how even an addon like this can go this long without proper functionality or support.
To put my feelings into a bad analogy for you, it's like you designed a sweet new hybrid car that gets currently 40mpg but has potential to get up to 120mpg. Sweet!! You have my attention :) But then I test drive it and although I am excited about all the features, it doesn't have power steering...what the hell?? How can a new car targeted at the green thinking demographic not have something as standard and basic as power steering? I can't help but think to my self that there is something inherently wrong with philosophy of the team who designed this car.
This analogy could go on and on, but it's already bad enough :/
Also, if your add-on philosophy on the matter held true, shouldn't there be more than one option to choose from??
If you build it in, they will come...hahahaha
I’m putting Songbird back on the shelf
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Hy Nicbot, I also think this should be smoothly running as in WINAMP. But I think the now playing add-on has improved.
What are your troubles with it.
In general it works fine with me -
Inappropriate?Don't get me wrong, in general it has improved. It's just not where it should be at this point in a release imo. To me this is something that should just work out of the box and it doesn't...for me.
Problems start occurring when;
-Add a few to NowPlaying list and begin playing
-Scroll through library
-Double click on a song to play it...along with the rest of the artist songs (not a big deal)
-Try adding a song to the list now....nope!
Can't add to or remove the list without at least hiding it and showing it again.
When I'm able to add to the list after showing it again, track names appear duplicate until I hide and show it yet again.
Is it just me??? If it is, then I'll gladly shut my pie hole :)
I will say that I appreciate the efforts made by Moshy. He is a champion. I'm just voicing my opinion and I can't honestly say that I'm satisfied with the add-on as it stands. It's a Now Playing list, it really shouldn't be that much to ask for should it?
I'm sorry to say that it remains a thorn in my side when it comes to SB.
Thanks qways. -
Inappropriate?Yes I understand,
I myself have my issues with the add-on.
I Use the add-on in the following way and that is good enough for me most of the time!
I put one song into the custom playlist and start playing,
then I browse the library and add more songs by right-clicking /queue next or queue last. No double-clicking!
When I want to add an Album or even an Artist I select them
Mark all songs (crtl+a) in the list and >right-click.......
But you`re right there are FLAWS:
First I think the speed of the display update should be increased.
Second the bugginess / sometimes queue next songs end up in grey on top of the list.( I haven`t figuered out what this depnds on.
As a third step I would love to have the right-click option on the filter panels (Genre,Artist,Album) directly.
Then the tracks should be numbered and drag and drop optimized.
Last and most importantly : I`m still rooting that the developers realize that this is a absolute must have feature of any media player and start to make this a top priority (at least to compete with and finally humiliate winamp and mediamonkey)
I don't get why people are so obsessed with library sorting, tag editing, album art obtaining and even CD ripping/burning)
ALl of the latter features are nice but they can be really put into add-ons .
This is where they belong because for all of these functions standalone programs can be and are used. (some people will even keep using them when SOngbird knows how to do it)
But the now playing can not be substituted it is a MEDIA player essential.
SO that should be up an running and maybe included into the core.
This was quite a rant for me!
But i appreciate the work of moshy very much and also of the songbird team and I think there is way to go and I am willing to walk!
Thanks for your ear Nicbot,
and everybody else.
qways
Ps: all the effort put into Ipod support will be futile once all the podders have upgraded to the I-pod touch that will no longer be usable with songbird. -
Inappropriate?A MP3 player must have a "now playing" window built into it and not an add on. This is my main grip with iTunes and why I won't us it. I still don't believe that iTunes doesn't have a "Now Playing" window. It's ridiculous to not have one. My all time favorite MP3 player is MusicMatch 7.5 none has been made that even comes close to it. This should be the model for all MP3 players but it cannot be used with Internet Explorer 7.
I’m sad
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