Songbird customer service policy currently a self-fulfilling prophecy
Right now, Songbird customer service seems to work as follows:
1. Ask users what they want.
2. Implement most popular feature requests.
At face value, this system sounds great! Give the people what they want! However, I think what happens is that some user demographics become minorities over time because their needs are not being met. As more and more users with their set of demands leave the Songbird community, their feature requests become less and less likely to be implemented. In the end, Songbird is basically a platform for a single demographic: Windows users with iPods.
If Songbird wants to be an open platform with broad industry support then they need to have a broad community of users. I propose that the team create a system to recognize and implement one minority feature request each release in addition to the 5 or 6 majority feature requests which already get attention. This will help ensure that Songbird is a success on many platforms and that it stays in the hearts and minds of many different types of users.
1. Ask users what they want.
2. Implement most popular feature requests.
At face value, this system sounds great! Give the people what they want! However, I think what happens is that some user demographics become minorities over time because their needs are not being met. As more and more users with their set of demands leave the Songbird community, their feature requests become less and less likely to be implemented. In the end, Songbird is basically a platform for a single demographic: Windows users with iPods.
If Songbird wants to be an open platform with broad industry support then they need to have a broad community of users. I propose that the team create a system to recognize and implement one minority feature request each release in addition to the 5 or 6 majority feature requests which already get attention. This will help ensure that Songbird is a success on many platforms and that it stays in the hearts and minds of many different types of users.
7
people like this idea
I like this idea!
Tell me when this idea gets some attention.
The more people who like this idea, the more it gets noticed.
The more people who like this idea, the more it gets noticed.
The best point from everyone
-
I think the idea of solid reliable 3rd party ipod syncing is a dream and and a waste of time for the songbird folks. Apple is hard core when it comes to their proprietary products and software. they will intentionally kill a 3rd party app's functionality if it starts to work too well with their products. they are total control freaks so you should stop wasting your time chasing after a snipe. I hope Apple losses their mp3 domination as I hate fascist control freak computer companies. they make Microsoft look like The Open Group.
I’m whack
5 people think
this is one of the best points
-
Inappropriate?I do hope that once the really big features on the roadmap are implemented, more time can be spent on more innovative features that other players don't offer. Obviously, add-on developers can always work on making these innovative features themselves, but I think that official support is what really drives innovation in the core of the program. An example of this is the Mozilla Labs, which is a page where the Mozilla team posts more experimental add-ons that might eventually be part of Firefox and their other products, so that everyone can participate in their development. Maybe there could be a Songbird labs where the team could work on a few adventurous bird-altering experiments.
2 people think
this is one of the best points
-
Yes, once the really big features on the roadmap are implemented then I too hope that some of the more innovative features can be offered, but I actually think the Songbird team is pretty generous in supporting innovative features. In fact, those are features that all of us want. I was thinking more about features that some people want but the majority of users don't really care about. For example, an en entire release cycle was used to develop a system to sync iTunes and Songbird. This was basically a response to the fact that a lot of iPod users were complaining that Songbird wouldn't sync with their iPods. But I run Songbird in Linux where iTunes doesn't even exist, and I also don't own an iPod. This feature is useless to me. Meanwhile, features that I passionately care about (CD ripping, podcasting, video support, mass storage class) were all delayed a release to satisfy this particular demographic. I'm glad that the Songbird team are listening to their users, but I think it's a bad policy to always neglect smaller user groups such as Linux users or people without iPods in order to make the majority of the users happy. The effect of this is that the windows users with iPods who were already the majority of Songbird users get yet another feature that they want and everyone else is forced to wait longer. By the time the next release cycle rolls around, the Windows users with iPods represent an even larger proportion of Songbird's users and their requests further cry out the requests of others. In the end, this does not make Songbird a broad, open platform for browsing media in the same way that say Firefox has become a broad, open platform for browsing the web.
One last note (because I want this to be clear): I mention Windows users with iPods because from GetSatisfaction and the Songbird Blog and everywhere else, that seems to be the vast majority of Songbird users. But I don't mean to demonize them. I don't care what OS other people use or what portable media player. I just want Songbird to be the best platform it can be, and the way I see it going, it's becoming more and more tethered to a particular audience and a particular user base. In the end, that's not good for anyone. -
Inappropriate?Hi
Just for my curiosity (sorry, I'm on Windows... but have no iPod though :) ), could you elaborate a little on which demographics seem to be left behind, and becaus eof which non-implemented-but-requested feature?
Thanks a lot. -
Sure, as I said above, an entire release cycle was devoted to syncing with iTunes. This was considered a sort of compromise, best-we-can-do way to satisfy the uproar of complaints that Songbird does not sync with iPods. But there are thousands of other portable music players whose manufacturers have not used draconians methods to keep 3rd party platforms from supporting them. Anyone using any of these devices has been forced to wait for Songbird to support their portable media player while this half-assed support for iPods was implemented. So the first demographic which I would say has been left-behind is non-iPod users.
2nd demographic: Linux and Mac users. Now that iTunes syncing has been completed, the team is finally working on a mass storage class to support these other devices. While it's listed on the roadmap as "mass storage class," (as though anyone could use it) if you read more closely, it's only being developed for Windows. One of Songbird's developers who uses OS/X is working on getting it going on Macs, but even that effort is not supposed to be officially supported in the release, and it "hasn't been determined yet" when Linux support will be added. When I pressed the Songbird team on this issue in the blog, they wouldn't even commit to adding Linux support within a year. In other words, Linux users may have to wait over a year longer than everyone else to get a basic feature such as a mass storage class. The reason why they are not implementing it in Linux is equally smug and inconsiderate; I was told that "It's non-trivial to port it to other platforms, and we don't currently have the resources to extend it to the Linux platform." I assume it was non-trivial to write the mass storage class in the first place for Windows users but they somehow found the resources to get this done.
3rd demographic: Users with low-end hardware. The Songbird team claims that Songbird has a smaller memory footprint and a faster startup time than iTunes, but that is only true when Songbird is installed without any add-ons. iTunes has a plethora of features that Songbird does not, many of which you have to install an add-on to get in Songbird. If you include all the add-ons necessary to get all the features in Songbird that iTunes has then I doubt it boots faster or users a smaller memory footprint than iTunes. And iTunes is an awful bloated program that runs slow and takes forever to boot. There are a lot of people looking for a more lightweight alternative to iTunes, and I don't think Songbird has really delivered in this department. They used to devote a large part of their release cycle to lowering the memory footprint and improving performance, but lately, it's been an afterthought at best. Basically, performance was brought down to the point where it was acceptable on high-end machines like desktops and fast laptops. If your computer is not that fast, then you're just out of luck.
I'm sure there are other demographics that feel they have been left-behind, but these are just the ones that I know most personally. Like I said above, I don't expect to get all my wishes granted, but I think it's ultimately bad for everyone if Songbird just cators to a single audience. -
Inappropriate?I do have to say as a Linux user that Songbird's reluctant support has all but driven me away from the project. One thing that would be easy to fix for Linux users and which people have been talking about for a long time is getting a feather that will play nicely with Linux window managers. Songbird stands out on the Linux desktop because it doesn't behave or look like any other program. I've seen people request this feature in the past but it was always been shot down with the same response, "not enough resources, do it yourself." It would be nice if every once in a while the team could at least implement some token features to convince me that they still actually care about us.
I’m undecided
1 person thinks
this is one of the best points
-
Inappropriate?it must be tricky decision to be made by the guys at POTI. And the choice of features that are actually developped and the ones that are not must also be related to their business model, which is not obvious to me. So, trying to enlarge the user base in the US first makes the choice of the iPod + Window support understandable.
Then MSC on Windows...
IMHO, Songbird has still to reach the standard level of features on the most used combination, so that investors or the business model can bring more money/resource (knocking on wood...) to focus on those other demographics that have been left behind in a first place .
We'll see what POTI will do after the release this fall, that should bring cd ripping and podcast, if I remember correctly... I hope their next moves will then be for Linux and Macs, and universal MSC support.
But before that, their resource will focus on the main population.
All that being said, I share your concern about low-end hardware, that is totally true. But progressively, such hardware will be replaced and meet SB standards...I know, I'm part of those, and I also know I will have to wait for my next hardware to take full advantage of SB. But in the meantime, I'm trying to help SB development by testing it on a better hardward at work :)
2 people think
this is one of the best points
-
"We'll see what POTI will do after the release this fall, that should bring cd ripping and podcast, if I remember correctly... I hope their next moves will then be for Linux and Macs, and universal MSC support.
But before that, their resource will focus on the main population."
Most of the features planned in the release this Fall were supposed to land a long time ago, like last Fall, but they got put off again and again. I don't think those features will be done when the Roadmap says they will be. Already, the Jackson 5 release is behind. But either way, the features you're talking about, CD ripping, MSC support, etc., those are all Windows only. Which is exactly my point. Why should I invest time and energy into a product that from a Linux standpoint, hasn't really advanced in the last 6 months and isn't supposed to get new features for over a year? A year is a long time.
Also, you seem to be interpreting my argument to say that Songbird should prioritize Linux or OS/X over Windows. I am not suggesting that the Songbird team prioritize Linux or OS/X over Windows or that they even give them the same level of attention as Windows. But I do think they need to balance their priorities or else they self-select themselves into a narrow community of users. A good way to do this is to commit to working on one (out of like 6) features that are being championed by a smaller community. It's check and balance on the dictatorship of the majority. Remember, I said: "I propose that the team create a system to recognize and implement one minority feature request each release in addition to the 5 or 6 majority feature requests which already get attention."
"All that being said, I share your concern about low-end hardware, that is totally true. But progressively, such hardware will be replaced and meet SB standards...I know, I'm part of those, and I also know I will have to wait for my next hardware to take full advantage of SB. But in the meantime, I'm trying to help SB development by testing it on a better hardward at work :)"
The trend right now is not faster hardware; it's smaller and more energy efficient hardware. In fact, the only growing segment of the computer industry right now (as far as I know) is netbooks, which are tiny computers that run so slow they can't always play YouTube videos. The computers of tomorrow are not computers as we know them; they're hand held devices like iPhones and Android phones, MIDS, netbooks, e-readers, etc. Maybe in 3 years those computers will be as fast as our desktops, but in the meantime, most software manufacturers are trying to slim down their software so it can run on slower hardware and thus be more portable. I don't think you can rely on the hardware to "catch up" to your software; nor is it a good model for software development. -
Inappropriate?Here's an update to this GetSatisfaction thread which I think is relevant:
POTI announced on their blog that the first Beta was available for Jackson 5, and a couple of users (Jigar shah & "Linux user") commented that they were disappointed that MSC would be Windows only. Since there is already a discussion about this topic here on GetSatisfaction, I tried to respond to their comments and point them here. Instead, my comments never appeared on the blog. In total, I tried posting them 4 different times from 2 different computers so the only explanation I can come up with is that the folks at POTI decided to censure my comments.
In particular, the comments were as follows:
First Comment:
@Jigar shah
"May be their stats are showing 90% windows..!!"
You're not the only one frustrated by the fact that MSC is windows only. I've started a discussion on getsatisfaction about how the Songbird customer service policy is currently a self fulfilling prophecy. When Linux and Mac users have to wait significantly longer than windows users to get the same, basic features, they look elsewhere for a different media player. As a result, there are a fewer Linux and Mac users browsing getsatisfaction and chiming in with suggestions/requests. Hence, the windows users' requests are heard even louder than before, and the next release is even more focused on them. Over time, this means that Songbird's user base is almost entirely windows users.
But that's bad for everyone because we want Songbird to be a broad, open platform. That's why I've suggested that POTI choose one minority-requested feature to focus on each release; to give balance to their customer service policy and broaden their user base.
Second Comment:
@Linux user
I would add to your question, why is Songbird censuring my posts to the blog? I've now posted 3 times a response to Jigar shah's comment, pointing out that I've started a discussion on Getsatisfaction about how Songbird's customer service policy is a self-fulfilling prophecy. In particular, I try to address this issue, the fact that Linux users and OS/X users are required to wait sometimes as much as over a year for the same features that Windows users receive. The way things work now, the user group that screams the loudest gets what they want. Since there are more windows users, that means they get the features they want before everyone else. Then, more Linux and Mac users get fed up, stop using Songbird, and stop following the blog, etc. Next release cycle, the Windows users' voices are louder. The end result is that Songbird's community is very homogeneous.
I also tried to make both my blog post and my getsatisfaction post as constructive as possible, offering a potential solution to this problem. I suggested that the Songbird team pick one feature each release that caters to a minority user-group such as Linux or Mac. This would help balance the customer service policy, but wouldn't totally derail the team from focusing on their main audience.
I didn't necessarily expect the Songbird team to take up my idea, but I was definitely shocked to see that an open source software project would censure posts on their blog. But hey, you probably won't read this post because I'm sure they will censure this one as well.
Needless to say, this is a pretty sad state of affairs. For more information, you can read this.
I’m sad
1 person thinks
this is one of the best points
-
sometimes the spam catcher is a tad sensitive... its not anyone from POTI that's blocking your comments.. its them robots ;-)
i've been spammed many times myself :-P -
@Michael Purses
That's an interesting possibility that I hadn't considered. I hope you're right. :-) -
Michael is correct, comments are not set to go through a moderation phase by us, and sadly there is so much spam we don't check it as often as we should. I've had comments get blocked as well using my @songbirdnest email address! Anyway, I'll go look for your comments in the spam filter and push them live. If it's posted under a different name from fdfisher, please lemme know. -
Ok, found 'em! On pages 18 and 23 of the spam folder. I even found another one of my posts there. Argh.
Anyway, they're live now and I cleared out the file and will try to do better monitoring it for legit posts. -
Awesome Laura! Thank you! -
Of course, and thanks for the blog update. Ironically I made a comment on your blog that isn't showing up either. Maybe I got caught in spam too? Darn bots, can't live with em, can't live without em... -
Ha! That's an ironic twist of fate. I spent 15 minutes looking for a way to get to the spam filter and un-spam your comment, but as far as I can tell, there's no way to do this in Blogger. Stupid Google, controlling my information. I'll look into this again later this week when I have some time again. -
Inappropriate?I think the idea of solid reliable 3rd party ipod syncing is a dream and and a waste of time for the songbird folks. Apple is hard core when it comes to their proprietary products and software. they will intentionally kill a 3rd party app's functionality if it starts to work too well with their products. they are total control freaks so you should stop wasting your time chasing after a snipe. I hope Apple losses their mp3 domination as I hate fascist control freak computer companies. they make Microsoft look like The Open Group.
I’m whack
5 people think
this is one of the best points
-
Inappropriate?iPod support is problematic but MTP and MSC support should be easily done on Linux, Windows and Mac OS X - after all, there is libmtp that works on Mac OS X and Linux, MSC is a matter of a mounted drive and pointing songbird to the player. I hardly think it is particularly difficult.
I’m silly
2 people think
this is one of the best points
Loading Profile...





CHAMP
CHAMP