Why do I need a poorly designed web browser for my music!?

I dunno man, I was thinking about it after I posted this and really the app seems like it wants to be Frostwire/Limewire with a web browser UI that handles it's purpose (music) as an afterthought. iTunes has lot of the same stuff that annoys me, so I can see iTunes users liking Songbird a lot. For me though it's all over the place. I have Frostwire, I have Firefox, why am I collecting all this redundant cross bred software? I used to use Azereus for torrents but the same question arose. Why do I have 12 apps that all do the same thing. So I started cleaning house. It really cheeses me that I have like 5 'media players' on my machine. It just seems idiotic that software has so much overlap, yet nothing is complete. It really frustrates the hell out of me.

In truth MusikCube was my ray of hope up until R1. R1 introduced more bugs than fixes or features and then the primary project leader had to bail due to a conflict of interest with his job. The end result was it pretty much died at birth. Some people are working on MusikCube 2 but the stuff I've tried isn't usable yet and I've been looking for years to jump ship from Winamp for several reasons. There is so much hype behind Songbird I keep holding out hope... install a new release, get mad...wish I had time to code my own damn app...but then think why do I have to code new when we have 1200 damn programs for every OS. Which a more sensible approach would be to add the extensibility to an existing project >like Songbird< rather than create more fractured software projects that continue the cycle of overlap and code inbreeding adding to pointless user choice and frustration...

Just something about your GUI criticism: The GUI can be completely changed by feathers. So if you have a good idea, how exactly to change things, you can do the Theme yourself or post a detailed mockup & explanation, so somebody else can do it for you :-)
If the changes are good, then there is a good chance, that they might be integrated into the core (this already happend in the past).
(Your current mockup isn't very well thought-out, so for example your changes to the titlebar do not reflect, that songbird allows to use native titlebars for example.)

But if I read your overall comment (you say you don't need all the webfeatures), I guess you are way better off without songbird, but should try Foobar2000 or J. River MediaJukebox Free instead. Both are excellent Players for different needs. The "perfect" or "complete" Player who fills all needs, simply doesn't and will not exist. Mostly, because there are a lot of contradictory needs like the "need for features" vs. "need for system resources & speed" :-)

What are you trying to say here ?

I can't work out if you like songbird or not ...

By the way if you write a nice letter to the developers of songbird they will release you from the contract that forces you to use it against your will and refund you the amount you paid to buy it.

Aside from the fact this dumb thing lost my reply about cross platform / OS issues I think it's wondrous that they ask for feed back then other flame people for giving feed back.

My point is the app needs a direction because it's trying to be 3 things and doesn't pull off any of the 3 well. That said the UI should allow users to drag elements where they please. Titlebar might not be possible on some OS's but that doesn't mean I need huge chunks of nothing in a section to house JUST the search on the far right.

As for feathers changing the layout that's a terrible idea as then you might find the layout you want but it comes in some terrible color or visual style. Allow people to place elements where they want, and allow feathers to decorate those elements but do not allow the feather to dictate both!

To theaulddubliner every time I install this program I get asked about feed back and usage metrics, if you don't like me giving them what they asked for maybe you should ask for your money back. I know it's free dumb ass. See this is why Open Source for so long has sucked or housed flame wars for so long. One group wants Program X to be HUGE, used by the masses, they encourage everyone they know to use it. Then the masses want something done and all the sudden people whip out the "It's free so there's no user accountability." argument. Sure it's free, but if you ask for end user feedback you're not going to get roses 100% of the time. If it's free and you don't give a fuck about your users then don't ask for their input. If you think I'm 100% on crack well then I guess the whole Winamp user base is too, because you know they hate features like a persistent 'current playlist' enough that they keep forgetting to remove this terrible idea from the builds each release.

nPHYN1T3, thank you, you've raised most of the main issues I have with songbird. Though your style is... interesting.
I don't agree that the web browser is a redundant feature; when I'm browsing my library or using the program a lot I find being able to flick to a webpage without switching apps quite handy - I often have music-related sites like last.fm or guitar tabs open in songbird. However, I do agree that it's not a *necessary* feature of the program, and certainly shouldn't be the main point of focus considering the state of the music player side of things.
With regard to your points on GUI customisation, hideability of the sidebar, current playlist, lack of customisation options in general and other missing key features like minimize to tray, I wholeheartedly agree. As it happens I think things like the album art display, concert alerts, etc are nice to have - but I agree that there should be a way to remove or at least hide these sort of things, which is currently lacking.

At the moment I'm holding out hope that songbird will continue to improve its core functionality to a level where I've no desire to use anything else; however, 1.1.1 is still uncomfortably buggy (particularly the Now Playing List addon, which mightn't be so broken if it were core functionality like it ought to be), and is still missing important features like multiple watch folders and secondary sort options.
Until recently I used iTunes because of my iPod; before that I used winamp, and as soon as I switched I missed winamp's customisability. At the moment Songbird doesn't have the nice-to-have pretty features of the one (or at least not working very well) or the customisability of the other, but is nice enough and has enough potential that I don't really want to switch back to either itunes or winamp. So I'm waiting, and time will tell whether that potential ever becomes realised.

i wouldn't use songbird if it didn't have album arts. Or playlist. Or websearch.

It has potential, that's typically why I let myself get sucked in by the hype each release and try it again. I look at Songbird like I do Most anything Apple, I want to use Songbird, just like there are certain reasons I'd like to own/use Apple products. I bitch because I want to see stuff made better. I'm not the easiest dude to please but my job is very UI based and I'm constantly working with software across tons of OS's.

In the end I think Songbird feels immature. You can tell when apps feel mature, over the hill, good, etc adn Songbird still has that glitchy feel it did almost a year or so ago. That said it does feel a bit more solid, most the REAL bugs have been fixed like the massive lag you used to get when trying to even delete a playlist but it still feels unpolished. Feel, behavior, functionality is all very personal so it's hard to describe intangible things in a rant like manner. I know I rant, I figure most times I'm just seen as a troll, but my tact is still in beta itself :)

However things like the fact Minimize to tray has like 3 or 4 versions for Songbird and not one works is a real deal breaker by itself. In every OS I use my music player has a 'go to tray' style functionality but trying Songbird I - out of almost 10 years habit- click that damned X thinking it will go to tray. You know what happens from here though...the F&*#er closes...which nukes my play items...and I'm back to square one and annoyed.

There are a few things I lost in a comment a while back about Foobar etc. I've tried iTunes, and iTunes sorta feels like this situation to me, Don't tell me how I like my stuff to be configured, and Apple does that. I ME decide how I expect things to work, and this is a tricky situation because this could become a old dog new tricks - kill innovation discussion. I've tried atunes and it's 20 variants, wxMusic etc. My point is I don't have an issue with innovation if you can make it work! That said Foobar, IAMP, aTunes, and the zillion others I've tried all miss the mark. Some are closer than others, but then fail miserably on something really important. Foobar is very flexible in certain ways, but fails to be coherent in behavior Vs. the panels/features I have chosen.

For me I'd rather have a bridge between apps. Having the same sorta crap like bookmarks between apps becomes like having to sync your stuff across your desktop, laptop, work machine, it's a pain. To sync freely and with anticipation between so many apps/machines and to do it seamlessly is near impossible with out a lot of BS and insecure practices IMO. It also causes the redundant application base I was talking about. We already have a web browser, so why does Songbird require a web browser? Are we too stupid to download music with a web browser to were we want it? Some maybe, most probably not. It's just more crap for us to keep track of and redundancy in the name is ease of use. If they want to make something cool make this *MUSIC PLAYER* (I really stress this is my expectation of Songbird) work with YOUR browser of choice, (which by Songbirds nature must be cross platform ready anyhow) not give you another browser. In the end I want something that works, allows me to ENJOY things as I see it to be enjoyable, that doesn't say force a Firefox embedded browser on me if I'm a Konqueror user and force redundant software on me.

This also feels like Miro Vs. VLC. It never fails to make me go WTF?! when something works in VLC but fails in Miro. I love having VLC, Media Player Classic, MP6.4 Winamp, and then a ton of other tools to 'manage' my music because Winamp tagging tools are useless and stupid. Some files play in VLC and not Winamp, Other files only play in mpc... UG! One piece of software for each purpose, that works, and when functionality would be good to cross, bridge them, but not embed or build off them. Find a way to make Songbird do it's thing but work for Opera users, Safari users, IE users, and don't tell us the user what to use. Songbird is offering a choice in music player, then sneaks a browser in on you like Apple sneaking in their BS when you install Quick Time. All the sudden that option for auto updated I UNCHECKED is running, and installed, despite the fact I said NO...and I've got a new freaking web browser...I was never given an option for that?! It just installed it! SOB! Is this the Songbird way?! [It's Apples :)]

--- and to Valiero, I never said remove those features, I just think more options can be given to users withOUT making the option array too overwhelming to let those who like/use that stuff do, and those of us who don't not. My gripe is there is not enough flexibility or focus. Maybe in a few years the vision will have solidified into something great, but I think right now with the software issue I face everyday this is a step in the wrong direction for a 'Firefox' class project.

alright, but you're right, your tact's still in beta :p
(although you sure have a point)

AMEN.

I feel the same about that a webbrowser should not be part of Songbird, it eats resources (important on netbooks), it's not a full Firefox, so I never use it. About the ease of switching inside songbird to a browser-window. It takes 2 buttons. Switching apps takes me... 2 buttons.
There's truth in what Infinite says, there can be worked towards an integration of songbird and firefox, but if I don't want to use Firefox or a anorexic version of it, or even if I wish to use FF but not the built in browser, I should be able to NOT install it.
It's bloat. The same reason I dropped Azureus and now use uTorrent. Bloat.

In nearly all situations I'll agree with whoever is proposing something that'll make the software I use lighter and more streamlined. However, in this case I'm going to have to disagree, not because I want to keep songbird fat but because you're forgetting something very important.

Songbird, like Firefox, uses XUL for it's UI. XUL is powered by Gecko (the rendering engine used by mozilla prducts). It is therefore impossible to remove the web browser without rewriting most, if not all, of the application.

What Songbird needs is an entire version without any feature adding that is dedicated entirely to code optimization and improving memory management. (after they get feature complete, that is)

Okay, but that leaves us with the second option.. Why go for a half-solution? Why not implement a full Firefox inside Songbird, that way I can drop one application. (most of the time I'm running both FF and SB, so it would make sense). I still think Or remove the browser, or make the integrated one one which hasn't its wings cut.

While I'm glad to see my discussion picking up again I think the idea is that adding the browser at all is a terrible idea for many reasons. Not only is this rather against the ideas of choice it introduces problems all the way to attack vectors, so let's take a quick look.

First off just to shock you guys what if a person is an IE user, and I've already pointed out the choice thing before but let's recap before the more serious issues. Now that everyone is ready to freak out (I hate IE myself) the point is a very simple one about choice. If the user is an Opera person, don't force Firefox on them. A plugin is a much more intelligent option since almost all broswers even the very immature Chrome supports some type of plugin architecture. This will allow all people to enjoy this (to me bizarre) functionality in and with the browser of their choice. I would dare say writing 7 or 8 browser plugins would be easier to maintain than a full browser code base but the reasons behind this become more obvious when we look at the nature of what this means.

Second this browser in a mediaplayer is a hazard due tot he nature of exploits and release schedules. While I realize streaming media, podcasts, and embeded media might be a desired item by a song bird user if a serious exploit is found with Firefox we now have to worry that our media player is also a target. If this was a plugin those issues are delegate to the browser teams rather that duplicating the issue and now two programs and their respective teams must scramble to protect their user base.

This is also a display of the difference between say the Windows/Apple/Linux/BSD/Qnx/etc worlds. While on Windows the development team will do their thing and release fixes and updates. In say the Linux/BSD/etc world we're either stuck building from source or waiting for our distribution team (or some random person) to build a package for us after the development team has stepped in and fixed things. This model of distribution is bloody insane to me and makes me cringe when even on distro's released yesterday I'm using outdated versions of OpenOffice or Firefox but the point is we're introducing more time between certain fixes and adding more of a security hazard to our system. Even if the plugin is the attack vector security falls on the respective team to fix it, say the Chrome team, and maybe it's only the Chrome on Linux. Maybe the Safari plugin on Mac OS. And Song bird users are not waiting for the firefox team to make an official patch to which then we have to wait for the song bird team to adopt it then all the terrible distribution methods funnel that to all the users on all the differing platforms.

Third is bloat, and this argument has also been done to death, stop bloat sweet jesus stop it. If I wanted bloat I'd be using WMP or iTunes. I'll not dwell here...

Fourth is focus what is this app supposed to be? A way to force Firefox on everyone, even those who already use and love Firefox? Is there a more intelligent way to integrate with existing systems and software on a given platform? Almsot every system has a way to pipe commands from other programs to browsers etc. Why can Songbird not leverage this and have intelligent switching or notifications so not to steal focus rudely. You might be able to be non-plugin based and have a wonderful user experience actually playing music.

four point five, this is my again old and busted gripe about preferences. I use Komodo Edit for coding, which is also Firefox based, the difference is when I look at my options they reflect what this program is supposed to be doing. When I open the Soundbird options/preferences it looks like it doesn't know what the F&*@ it wants to be. Almost all the options are for a browser and almost none of the options I want for my music are there, not to mention the busted ass plugins that work on Firefox but not on Song bird.

Fifth, from a memory management point of view two Firefoxes, or Firefox and Safari, no matter how you cut bind and combine them if they are unaware of each others efforts and memory and you can end up with massive memory pigs running together possibly loading the same content because someone reading their daily news stumbled across one thing that led to another and now they found some cool music, but since there is no integration with their browser of choice they fire up songbird, go to the same site, now their duplicating their system memory loading all the same shit twice or maybe more, yay for us!

Sixth we have all the busted UI issues I brought up and the fact we the user should decide how and where we want things. The feathers should ONLY decorate those items where we have placed them, not dictate where things are placed. Looks however are not the only busted thing about the UI and while I've not tested Songbird in a bit release after release left me with stupid things like adding your media library location locked you out of the program while it scans. You can't check options, or even listen to music (which is what this dumb thing is for isn't it?) while it scans. Now my whole families music in on a central server so it's about 80 gigs to scan so I get to try Songbird like 3 hours after I install it. Most times this is a wait 2 hours for it to let me DO something to find out it sucks, it's slow, it's broken, and I hate to wait 2 or 3 hours to even try thing one to uninstall it 20 minutes afterwards. This locked out "I can't multitask" behavior is so stupid I can barely contain my anger when an app does it. Rather than being able to jump right in my first impression is oh uh...I get to wait three hours to see if I like this...cool cuz I bought my computer to wait on things. I think it's obvious this isn't about impatience, but yet if I wanted to wait I'd still be using my 75 mhz machine, cuz I can wait apparently. So back to focus, is this a secrect prgram to make the world a more patient place? A covert "Adopt Firefox" program? or a F^&@ing music player?

The end result is don't add a browser at all, it's just not a good idea. We all have fricking browsers, make shit work with what we have. Don't think this is possible? Then give up, seriously, I hate Apple but one of the reasons they are gaining market and traction is this idea that is this possible, probably not, let's make it possible sort of attitude. Firefox also brought this, can free software not suck, can we bring new ideas to the table, oh and Opera too, Opera has pioneered a LOT of features and ideas we see as common place today, because they didn't sit on their ass and try to copy or integrate someone elses crap. Well Opera, purists can argue Firefox is based on the old Netscape code base and they adopted others js engines yada yada but you get my drift, they adopted things that are not being duplicated on a users system. Except maybe Windows and Mac users who are forced into installing Safari or IE. I think my point is made thoug for whomever has had the patience to read my insanely long posts :)

I just tried Songbird again just to make sure I wasn't talking out my ass about things maybe that have changed, I mean it's been 8 months since I originally posted and I think 2 or 3 releases since. However upon install:
-I'm still locked out while it scans my media, FAIL
-It does not remember what I was listening to (not even the recently played is working for me)
-installing an Add-on is fail unless you restart, cool I get to have my groove disrupted, how wonderful.
-oh oh wait for it..."Minimize to Tray" STILL DOESN'T WORK!? Are you serious!? ARE YOU #$%%ing SERIOUS?!
-It still messes with my mind I need to have options about pop-up blocking in my Music player...
-Media library searches are very slow compared to other apps.
-Installing add-ons not only kill groove but again since Songbird does not have a current play playlist it loses my tunes unless I go out of my way to save what I'm listening to as a playlist. I say this because while trying to find a working minimize to tray I had to restart to disable/uninstal the original and restart again once I found something else to try, yay yay yay!
-Add-on for tray controls is uninstallable awesome! I didn't want it anyhow right?

I'm being cheeky/angry about this stuff because IMO these should be standard program options, but the fact they are add-ons shows there is some idea of CHOICE, however the browser thing is forced on us so I'm definitely droning on this topic. What choice is given is disruptive, broken and distracting. The UI is still very fixed and doesn't allow for dragging panes or sections around despite the fact 99% of what I want to do *IS* possible in Firefox. I can't help but feel like right or wrong this is kinda like the nut sweat of the Fox has been mopped up and wrung out into this project.

However through these 8 months I have adopted FooBar as my player of choice and this is said only because it too was very frustrating. FooBar is a very "logical" player and until or unless you see the programmers logic right away some things were/are hard to grasp. It took a while to design my UI and behavior the way I wanted however the curve was rewarding. The plugins WORK, the app is solid, fast, clean, etc. It's from this I'd probably say that's the end of it but the crappy thing about Foobar is if I'm in BSD or Linux it won't be, unless I jerry up WINE.

However I dare say the focus and goal of SongBird will never be anything I have interest in so I'll leave this as it is, I've more than reiterated my issues and thus far it looks like the dev team has no care to deal with things like the fact on a scheduled folder scan for media it can do it in the background but the first one locks you out, so very unwelcoming.

On an amusing note with the project focus I'm not sure why they haven't also tried to add the Frostwire/Limewire or μTorrent code base because lots of albums are legally free and released under CC license via Torrents. I mean why not right, cuz we need a browser in our music player why not a torrent program too, or maybe someone can make a broken add-on for that. /me shakes head, what a mess.

I tried songbird for a few days and it put things in perspective for me. I too am now going back to foobar.