The Doubles Issue
So I realized something today... this is partial bug report, partial advice, and partial plain observation.
And if this has already been discussed here I will be disappointed. If it hasn't, but you guys are working on it because you know about it already, then... well I'll still be disappointed that I wasn't the one who told you :P but I won't be too surprised :)
Let me preface this by saying I am not an expert on these things, so feel free to improve what I said (or give a reason why it doesn't apply at all :P). This is simply based on what I do know, have observed, and logically concluded. I will explain it from what my best hypothesis/theory currently is.
*crowd yells, "GET ON WITH IT"* oh, right...
I believe I have discovered a (note: not THE, just a) reason why doubles are more likely to "randomly" miss than singles are. Don't know how often this particular thing happens, but I bet it does at least some.
Take a look at this picture:
I have outlined the approximate areas you can tap in order for it to register on each of the three colors. Pretty darn huge, right? Which in general, is pretty darn sweet, because that means your fingers have wiggle room and don't have to stay specifically on the exact center (if there even were such a thing).
I was playing online today, purposely doing terrible in order to prevent people who were seriously playing a 1-on-1 match from getting catch-up taps. At one point I was just kinda tapping the middle lane a bunch, whether taps existed there or not. And I noticed something peculiar... my red (left) taps were occasionally being registered... Odd, I thought...
Then it hit me, and I had a big eureka moment.
Could it be, perhaps, that in attempting to hit a double in say, red and green (left and center), that your finger in the center sets off the red accidentally, and since your finger in the left is out of range, you no longer have hope of getting the green?
Experimentation then took place on my part, and I discovered something peculiar... which I will consider the "problem" part of this whole thing. When you tap in the overlap range, how does the program determine which it goes for?
Well, if there's a tap in red, it goes for red... if there's a tap in green, it goes for green... if there's not a tap in either, you just messed up your streak :P.
But what about if there's a tap in both? Well it just so happens that it turns out to assume LEFT. So if it's a question between left and center, it goes left. If it's between center and right, it goes center.
Why is this a problem? Well...
Tapping here, it's well within the good-looking range for a green tapper. But if there's one in both green and red, it's going to take red first!
Check it out yourself. Go into a song like bloodmeat where there's tons of doubles. Experiment and you can find the area where tapping closer to the green will register the reds. If you tap fast enough, you can get the red to register, and then the green to register the next time your finger hits, even though your finger hasn't moved.
So let's say there is indeed a tapper in red and green, and you tap here:
No problem! Nothing's in an overlap, so each registers the intended tapper.
But let's say you're drifting a little and tap here:
Well now, this really depends... IF you tap with the left slightly ahead (time-wise) of the center, you're fine, because the left gets the red, and the center, seeing nothing in red, gets the green.
IF on the other hand, your center is slightly ahead of the left, the center will default over to RED! Then when your left registers, it sees nothing in the red lane anymore! It's not close enough to the green lane, and so the green tap travels on, and there goes your streak!
(I have no clue how much of a time difference these things have to be... but I can definitely create the issue by exaggerating the time difference slightly)
Is this really a problem? Well some people would probably argue no, because if you're tapping in the correct place, you won't run into this.
I would go with the opinion, however, that the overlap areas really should default to whatever's closer, rather than whatever's on the left. Cause after all, tapping where that last picture shows I believe should still be taken correctly, as you are still even within the designated circles.
And I'm assuming Tapulous made the areas so big because they didn't want to be so picky about the exact location of your tap.
In other words, if you were asking me (which I know you aren't, but I don't care, I'm telling you anyway :P), I would change it to default whatever's close rather than left.
Is it a huge deal? No... but neither do I think it would be hard to fix...
Now for the advice.
How to prevent this:
Well, for one, you can tap in the correct location :P
But if you want to allow for some drifting, then tap slightly to the Right of the targets. This way, if your fingers wander, you will be in the intersection of the intended column and whatever's to the right of it, which will default to your intended column. Wonderful!
So... thoughts? Did I write a big thing for nothing? lol :P
And if this has already been discussed here I will be disappointed. If it hasn't, but you guys are working on it because you know about it already, then... well I'll still be disappointed that I wasn't the one who told you :P but I won't be too surprised :)
Let me preface this by saying I am not an expert on these things, so feel free to improve what I said (or give a reason why it doesn't apply at all :P). This is simply based on what I do know, have observed, and logically concluded. I will explain it from what my best hypothesis/theory currently is.
*crowd yells, "GET ON WITH IT"* oh, right...
I believe I have discovered a (note: not THE, just a) reason why doubles are more likely to "randomly" miss than singles are. Don't know how often this particular thing happens, but I bet it does at least some.
Take a look at this picture:
I have outlined the approximate areas you can tap in order for it to register on each of the three colors. Pretty darn huge, right? Which in general, is pretty darn sweet, because that means your fingers have wiggle room and don't have to stay specifically on the exact center (if there even were such a thing).
I was playing online today, purposely doing terrible in order to prevent people who were seriously playing a 1-on-1 match from getting catch-up taps. At one point I was just kinda tapping the middle lane a bunch, whether taps existed there or not. And I noticed something peculiar... my red (left) taps were occasionally being registered... Odd, I thought...
Then it hit me, and I had a big eureka moment.
Could it be, perhaps, that in attempting to hit a double in say, red and green (left and center), that your finger in the center sets off the red accidentally, and since your finger in the left is out of range, you no longer have hope of getting the green?
Experimentation then took place on my part, and I discovered something peculiar... which I will consider the "problem" part of this whole thing. When you tap in the overlap range, how does the program determine which it goes for?
Well, if there's a tap in red, it goes for red... if there's a tap in green, it goes for green... if there's not a tap in either, you just messed up your streak :P.
But what about if there's a tap in both? Well it just so happens that it turns out to assume LEFT. So if it's a question between left and center, it goes left. If it's between center and right, it goes center.
Why is this a problem? Well...
Tapping here, it's well within the good-looking range for a green tapper. But if there's one in both green and red, it's going to take red first!
Check it out yourself. Go into a song like bloodmeat where there's tons of doubles. Experiment and you can find the area where tapping closer to the green will register the reds. If you tap fast enough, you can get the red to register, and then the green to register the next time your finger hits, even though your finger hasn't moved.
So let's say there is indeed a tapper in red and green, and you tap here:
No problem! Nothing's in an overlap, so each registers the intended tapper.
But let's say you're drifting a little and tap here:
Well now, this really depends... IF you tap with the left slightly ahead (time-wise) of the center, you're fine, because the left gets the red, and the center, seeing nothing in red, gets the green.
IF on the other hand, your center is slightly ahead of the left, the center will default over to RED! Then when your left registers, it sees nothing in the red lane anymore! It's not close enough to the green lane, and so the green tap travels on, and there goes your streak!
(I have no clue how much of a time difference these things have to be... but I can definitely create the issue by exaggerating the time difference slightly)
Is this really a problem? Well some people would probably argue no, because if you're tapping in the correct place, you won't run into this.
I would go with the opinion, however, that the overlap areas really should default to whatever's closer, rather than whatever's on the left. Cause after all, tapping where that last picture shows I believe should still be taken correctly, as you are still even within the designated circles.
And I'm assuming Tapulous made the areas so big because they didn't want to be so picky about the exact location of your tap.
In other words, if you were asking me (which I know you aren't, but I don't care, I'm telling you anyway :P), I would change it to default whatever's close rather than left.
Is it a huge deal? No... but neither do I think it would be hard to fix...
Now for the advice.
How to prevent this:
Well, for one, you can tap in the correct location :P
But if you want to allow for some drifting, then tap slightly to the Right of the targets. This way, if your fingers wander, you will be in the intersection of the intended column and whatever's to the right of it, which will default to your intended column. Wonderful!
So... thoughts? Did I write a big thing for nothing? lol :P
5
people have this problem
I have this problem, too!
Tell me when someone solves it.
The more people who report this problem, the more it gets noticed.
The more people who report this problem, the more it gets noticed.
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Inappropriate?i just wanna know how you happened to take those screenshots so fast, right after missing the beats
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... it's all the same screenshot, which I took at the very end of a game where there are no more taps... -
Inappropriate?I had realized something like this doing wut u did (tapping in the center column notes or not) and some of the left column notes were being hit. Now it makes a lot more sense why my taps r dropped. A good way to fix it is to play on kids, becuz it the ripple appears where u hit not around the target. It's kinda broing but it helped me get a betterbfeel for tapping in the right spot
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Inappropriate?I don't understand why the valid tap areas would overlap at all. That sounds like some software engineer trying to be clever but actually opening up a big can of whoop-ass... I mean worms.
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Inappropriate?Thank you so much for figuring out this problem. I've never had this problem with doubles dropping but sometimes my fingers tend to wander away from the tap zones on fast sections in songs.
I figured out it was actually this problem that I've been having in the fast sections of Bloodmeat. I always thought it was the legato bug and I tried tapping early or late to try and aviod it, and it hardly ever worked. Then i tried to make sure I was in the middle of the targets (or maybe a little to the right) and instantly got a new high score. Im so close to FCing it now. :)
Also I tried on my device to see how far over my thumb has to be for it to register and it seems to go to the left any time any part of my thumb is past the middle line between two tap areas for it to register in the left one.
Does anyone know exactly how the iPhone records where a touch occured? Does it record where it determines the center of the finger is? Or does it report all areas that are being touched and leave it up to the app to decide how to process that? -
Inappropriate?So what song(s) did you use to come up with this "overlap" theory? I just messed around a little & don't see that behavior at all.
The tap targets don't seem to overlap the slightest on mine. I tested this with 10,000 Miles or whatever on Easy. Some portion of my finger MUST contact the appropriate tap target for it to be recognized.
TTR gets notified when a touch event occurs. The notification includes a data structure containing a timestamp & touch bounds info. TTR then probably compares the timestamp & touch bounds to the potential target bounds & current tapper time. Seems pretty simple to me & seems to be exactly how it works for me (iPhone 3GS).
I still think the trouble is with other OS tasks adding latency & probably even some task or interrupt priority issues. Touch events need to be pretty high priority for this game to work well but I'm not sure Tapulous has any control over that! -
Inappropriate?Testing: Easy: 18 days, yup, gives you hell, yup, she's a killer, yup
Expert: a fact of life, yup, bloodmeat, yup, double down under, yup, night falls, yup, tenderloin, yup
Yeah, this is definitely working on every single song (well, these are all unthemed... maybe I'll check themed later).
Are you using your thumb? Cause I notice with my thumb, when the center of my thumb is on the edge of my little areas up there, that pretty much puts the edge of my thumb where the edge of the actual circles are... but I doubt the edge of my finger is actually touching there.
Try using the very tips of your fingers. Stand 'em up and tap like that woodpecker in that video lol. I can definitely be way over close to the green line and hit red tappers. I'm getting the results I mentioned in every song I try.
And by the way, I am not saying the OS tasks aren't causing problems, cause I totally agree that that likely causes problems. I'm just pretty sure these are too.
Here's some more interesting info I discovered while retesting for bufulo:
Take Night Falls:

This is one section in the song where you can actually easily get the section with using only two fingers and not having to move them. Take your two index fingers, put the right one between the right and center targets, and put the left one between the center and left targets. You can just tap every time (musically speaking, every eighth note) with the right finger, and you'll get all the blues and greens without having to move it. Tap your left one every other time (every quarter note) to get the red ones.
Try that one out, bufulo, see if you can't duplicate it.
In A Fact of Life, using the in-between locations, we actually run across something else:

So say you're about to tap the green one, right when it gets to the center. But say your finger's over a little to the left (test it by just simply putting it in between the two targets). You may intend to hit the green on time, but if you're into the overlap with red's area, it will default left! And so you will hit the red, probably getting dark blue or orange because you're early, and then there goes mr. green.
What does this mean? Well this means that not only does it cause an issue with doubles, but also with singles that are very close together like this one.
Moral of the story: keep your fingers centered (or slightly right) until Tapulous changes the default.
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Yes, I do tap only with my thumbs & they are pretty big, but I actually turn them down to use the tips. I've found that if I turn them down too much to use the very very tip, besides cramping easily after playing alot, the taps don't register quite as well. My guess is they are slightly less capacitive in that area due to reduced blood flow (salt, conduction, whatever). Minor digression. FWIW, I WOULD prefer higher tap targets! My thumbs start to cramp after playing an hour or so the way it is now.
Anyway, I messed with Night Falls as you describe & I can only get it to register one tap at a time when I tap in-between. Maybe I'm still missing something, but you are making contact with both targets at the same time, right? It's just not possible to tap only in-between unless your fingers are as narrow as toothpicks! :)
I didn't try A Fact of Life, but your description sound like exactly what should happen. If you tap anywhere in the left target it should register in that lane only & drop the middle as you see happen.
So the tap target area doesn't overlap at all for me & that makes perfect sense. In fact, there should be a few pixel wide strip between each lane specifically to ensure you can't do exactly what you describe (tapping in-between & having it register in both lanes)! This just seems like common sense. I can't understand why on Earth Tapulous would have the tap area overlap. They should just compare the center of the touch to the tap target bounds (the colored circles). If the center of the touch is on or within those circles, it counts for that lane. Piece of cake! Or is that chicken soup? -
If you could see my fingers, you would see they are over far enough that there is no question that I'm NOT touching the targets that I'm hitting anyway.
A Fact of Life, it shouldn't get the reds if I'm really close to the green and not even touching the red target, which is what I was doing.
I still find it extremely odd that you aren't finding this, as from the other comments on here, it seems I'm not the only one who finds it does overlap. -
Inappropriate?Oh one more thought, I wonder if maybe the intention with making the tap targets so big was just so that you could tap higher. After all, some people might find it more comfortable for their hands if they tap above the targets.
Maybe they just were like, you can tap so-and-so away from the very center and made it a radius just to be simple. In testing, you probably wouldn't realize what could actually happen (unless of course, you're purposely doing bad like I was lol) -
Inappropriate?Good grief, Ceegers, this is fascinating! I haven't tried on any of the harder songs, but I just played some easy ones with just two fingers. I was aiming my right pointer in the triangle between the bottom of the screen and the red and green tapper targets, and sure enough it would register for whichever tap in the red or green lines was coming next. Very bizarre. I was so entranced by this I kept missing the blue line tappers with my middle finger. lol.
What I don't understand is, if this is causing dropped taps, why it only happens when I play on wifi. On wifi, I get millions of dropped taps, but on the 3G network I don't (of course, the lag is so bad that I can't be any more competitive that way). There's such a hodge-podge of issues, I feel bad for Tapulous trying to sort this out.
Anyway, I don't think the zones should overlap since it obviously can cause problems, but at the very least people should have the option to chose between the super-mega-overlapping tap zones or tap zones that absolutely do not overlap.
I’m fascinated
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Well, suck. I just suddenly thought to try playing with neither wifi nor 3G connected, and the game seems perfect except for the sticky arrows problem. Got my best scores on a number of extreme songs all in a row without even restarting the game between to make sure memory is freed up.
So I can't fix my dropped taps problem by concentrating on where I'm tapping. I can only play truly offline -- so offline that I can't even submit scores to the boards. Suck. I mean, it's nice to play without all the dropped tap drama, but it was the online play that really pulled me into Tap Tap addiction. I hope TTR3 somehow isn't as affected by the background network traffic so I can play TTR like God intended: online against other players.
I wonder why this issue has been slowly getting worse over time for me. Is that a sign that my iPhone is dying? -
The "background" tasks like wifi & 3G are probably given higher priority in the Apple OS, so they essentially interrupt & block TTR & tasks related to touch events. If written optimally, the amount of time they block is kept to a bare minimum & really shouldn't cause any problems.
My guess is that this is where one of the major problems rests & Tapulous can't do a darn thing about it. Hopefully OS 3.1 will be better optimized. Ideally touch related tasks could be temporarily bumped up to be higher priority than network tasks, but I seriously doubt that will ever happen.
Playing with those tasks disabled (at least to the extent we can) definitely helps A LOT! I agree though, it totally defeats the purpose if you can't Submit your score or play with others. What fun is that hey?
The "getting worse over time" issue is really bizarre. When I first got my 3GS, I didn't even bother using Airplane Mode, turning off Push, or Auto Brightness because it really didn't seem to make a difference. It sure does now!
The only explanation I can come up with is memory management issues - either fragmentation or corruption. This is either causing some background memory management task (probably OS) to take more time in a critical section of code (blocking as discussed above) or is actually outright memory corruption or leakage (memory allocated but never returned to the system) by either Apple or TTR or both. I've seen behavior that could be evidence of any of these things, but there is no way for us to debug such a thing. This is something Apple and/or Tapulous have to figure out.
PS. One thing I've often wondered is whether or not the hold scoring is timer driven or just in a loop in the code (TTR). If it's not driven by a timer (interrupt), your score may increase more slowly if background tasks interrupt TTR! In other words, if Tapulous didn't think of this, it may very well be possible to get your best scores with as many background tasks as possible disabled! :O -
Haha, yeah I think I said at the very beginning I'm not sure how often this actually happens in normal play. You might be accurate enough that it really doesn't happen to you.
As far as the wifi thing goes, I found while playing on vacation with wifi off that it was indeed dropping less, however for me it was still far from perfect. -
I think my tapping position accuracy is pretty darn good. I have trouble with tapping speed on the really fast songs or if there are too many fast taps in a row. Guess that's what makes those songs Extreme though! During normal play, I don't think I would run into the overlap issue even if it did exist on my device (which I still can't demonstrate). -
hmm, I just now read (or at least it just now clicked in my head) the bit you said about how holds are scored.
I have (some time ago) taken a stopwatch and checked how a hold is scoring, and it was very accurately 1000pts/sec. if that isn't time-based, that is a ridiculous coincidence :-P -
Maybe you did this, but there are 2 scenarios you'd have to compare with your stopwatch to test the hold scoring. Use the same song, same tap & hold, the longer the hold the better.
Scenario #1 would be to enable as many background tasks as possible & Scenario #2 would be all those things disabled/inactive. The usual stuff comes to mind - Auto Brightness, Push Notification, wifi, Bluetooth, Airplane Mode (for phones), etc.
Really load up the background as much as possible for Scenario #1. Maybe fire off a bunch of e-mails somehow, play under a slow-cycling strobe light, & even shake the device like crazy while holding. :) -
You do that if you want. For me, seeing an accurate 1000 pts a second was enough that I believe it's time-based :P It'd be too weird of a coincidence. -
Inappropriate?bufulo: "The "background" tasks like wifi & 3G are probably given higher priority in the Apple OS, so they essentially interrupt & block TTR & tasks related to touch events. If written optimally, the amount of time they block is kept to a bare minimum & really shouldn't cause any problems.
My guess is that this is where one of the major problems rests & Tapulous can't do a darn thing about it. Hopefully OS 3.1 will be better optimized. Ideally touch related tasks could be temporarily bumped up to be higher priority than network tasks, but I seriously doubt that will ever happen. "
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that's exactly what i think could be the reason. also the graphics drivers have been improved in OS 3.1 along with other things. IF the problem was "late" tap/touch events it should be gone for most of the users. also: Gaga revenge seems to have a better engine than TTR2 - the dropped taps are not the problem in that game - even in OS 3.0
so i'm confident: the combination of TTR3 and iPhone OS 3.1 will be perfect
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Inappropriate?bufulo, I've attached a picture below of where I'm tapping to see the overlap that Ceegers is talking about. I can play songs all the way through with around 90% accuracy tapping in the two pink spots and never (or almost never) actually touching the outside targets. Maybe your big beefy man thumbs are two big for this, though.
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Using your pink spot at a guide (same song too), I was able to tap outside of the tap target & get them to register! However, I still can't convince myself the valid tap zones truly overlap. It just seems like the tap zones are actually squares, not spheres. -
Inappropriate?Was that Long enough!!!?? Jesus
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I like to be thorough :P -
Inappropriate?Wow!! That is an f ton of info to take in at once... Had to take breaks between posts. Lol
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Hey Liquidflames... why don't you challenge me on the song "Heretics and Killers" next time...
I can't beat you in the other challenges... especially Eenie Meanie... i fail so bad in that...
and i also fail in fast paced world... -
I suck at heretics, so when I get a decent score on it, I'll challenge u on it. -
Inappropriate?Bufulo has unknowingly demonstrated this issue (specifically the way I mentioned it could appear in my A Fact Of Life example) in his video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JYN3E...
Why do I say that? Well let's look at what happens in the slow-mo section. That tiny section consists of B,R,G,B,R,G,R,B,G,R.
B,R,G,B - fine
R - fine
The next thing that happens is his right thumb attempts to tap the green tap. BUT look closely! When his right thumb taps, notice the following red tap disappears and the target turns orange (almost looks red with that camera)! When your left thumb then attempts to hit the red tap, it's already missing, and if you look closely you will notice that your streak actually disappears when your left thumb hits, because there is no longer a tap there! The green one also passes, but your streak is already gone. You can kinda see the middle target turn red, but you tap right when it does, making it turn green again.
See THIS is exactly the kind of thing I would do if I had a video camera!
I’m happy you can see one of my bug reports happen on video!
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You're absolutely right about the middle tap appearing to register in the left lane! The timing fits. I don't see how you caught that in the crappy video though. I had to go back to the raw video frame-by-frame to notice the red target glow brightly TWICE & the middle lane turning orange. It would probably be totally obvious at 120 fps.
What's not so obvious is the exact contact point of my right thumb. It does appear to be left just a little more than normal in the YouTube video, but when viewed frame-by-frame in the original, I'm confident it does not contact the left target. However, it MAY contact the left tap zone if it is a square. It really doesn't look like it though. It appears to be entirely in the middle lane as far as I can tell, so overlapping tap zones seems to be true.
Overlapping tap zones sure seems like a really bad idea to me! If true, I wonder what they were trying to accomplish or maybe work around?
Also, it seems obvious to me that TTR should use the CENTER of the area tapped. I think the OS passes the bounds of the tapped area in a data structure as part of the tap event notification, so calculating the approximate center should be pretty trivial (& doesn't even require a high-level divide). -
Inappropriate?Alright, if I've got bufulo agreeing now, I must have made a pretty good case :-P Not to mention a video that is supporting evidence.
Now what does it take to get tapulous to say something??? I mean come on, thought you guys actually wanted to make things better :-P Even if you've already got it changed for ttr3, a post saying you're aware this issue's in ttr2 would be useful.
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Hey Ceegers --
You bring up a pretty good point. I have to say - I love details and screenshots. -
Should we translate that as "Oh crap" or does TTR3 have it covered? :)
If you'd like any more videos, let me know. I'm pretty sure this particular issue is repeatable. -
Agreed. Excellent report Ceegers! and yes, this issue is repeatable. I just tried :P
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