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storing copyrighted material for private use
Is it ok+secure to store files like CD backups online in a private folder?
I don't want mail from some filesharing headhunters just because the MD5 of my CD image matches the original (because it IS the original...)
Same goes for MP3 files ripped from my CDs.
I guess the real question is: Can ANYONE (for example Wua.la admins) access files in a private folder/group who is not invited to do so?
Is this prevented by design (encryption) or could the devs be forced to code something that allows access to any file?
I don't want mail from some filesharing headhunters just because the MD5 of my CD image matches the original (because it IS the original...)
Same goes for MP3 files ripped from my CDs.
I guess the real question is: Can ANYONE (for example Wua.la admins) access files in a private folder/group who is not invited to do so?
Is this prevented by design (encryption) or could the devs be forced to code something that allows access to any file?
I’m unsure
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The best answer from the company
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Hi everyone. Here's the official response. Sorry for the delay.
Wuala is secure by design. However, it is (for good reasons) not completely anonymous (you can for example always see which user the owner of a published file is). I'll explain all of this including the catch related to duplicate files here in detail.
1. Wuala is secure by design. Only you and those authorized by you can access your data. Not even we, the Wuala admins, can see your files unless you publish them. We do not know your password.
2. When inserting a file, it gets encrypted with a key that is generated from the hash (SHA-256, not MD5) of its content. That way, files with identical content will get encrypted the same way and we can still detect them as duplicates even after encryption. This saves storage, but it might allow others to find out if your computer is storing or accessing a file whose content is known.
3. So, what could a clever hacker find out about you and your files?
A clever hacker could trade some storage in the Wuala network and monitor Wuala's traffic. That way, he can detect whenever another computer in the Wuala network tries to store or retrieve a file fragment stored on his computer. If the hacker knows the file the fragment belongs to, he can assume that whatever user is sitting at the other computer (identified by its IP address) is accessing/storing that given file. However, we are considering to introduce anonymous maintenance (see below) which would (as a side effect) make it impossible to tell for sure whether the given file has really been accessed/stored by a user or whether it was just an anonymous maintenance upload/download.
Anonyomus Maintenance: this is a feature we have planned to introduce soon but have not officially announced it until now. One of the problems when storing lots if data in Wuala is the need for a local backup which occupies lots of local storage space. Currently, we use the local backup to perform file maintenance. In future, however, file maintenance won't be done by the owner any more, but by random computers in the Wuala network and our servers when they don't have much else to do. With random maintenance enabled, your computer will sometimes download and reupload random files (without being able to encrypt them) to ensure their availability. The main advantages are that your files will still be maintained even if you are on a long vacation, that we can get rid of the local backup and that we can globally focus on maintaining those files whoes availability is the most critical. Also nice is the side effect of having better anonymity as mentioned above. What do you think about this feature? Would you enable anonymous maintenance?
4. What a hacker won't find out.
So a clever hacker might find out that a computer identified by its IP-Address is uploading or downloading a given file, but won't be able to tell for sure that whatever user sits at that computer is viewing/storing the file. Furthermore, the hacker won't see any metadata at all (filename, comments, owner, etc.). He won't see any information about in which folder the file has been stored and can't tell whether the file has been shared or not.
We believe that we have found a reasonable design that allows for high security without significantly hurting performance. We could for example increase anonymity by relaying all traffic over multiple stations (like freenet or tor is doing). However, that would render any streaming or fast file access impossible. To answer the initial question: Yes, Wuala is secure. However, we ask you to use Wuala responsibly and in accordance with the law (see also our terms of service).
The company and 7 other people say
this answers the question
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Inappropriate?crypt your stuff into some archive, and store that inside wuala if you dont trust it.
there is no ultimate saftey. take your own saftety steps to minimize them risks.
truecrypt, gpg/pgp your files, or zip (aes), 7zip and so on.... dump them results into wuala afterwards. -
Inappropriate?Yeah, great... If I have to do that, I can also use Rapidshare...
I hope Wuala will give me some real private, fast and reliable webspace where only files in "public" areas can be moderated.
I guess I'll wait for some definite answer on this topic. -
Inappropriate?you are comparing a website for http-downloads to a distributed storage system?
think again. -
Inappropriate?It is impossible for someone to access files of a group/person if they are not allowed. The fragments that are spread all over the wuala network are 'meaningless bytes of data'. They can't be decrypted without the key (that only the owner has).
I think the encryption is based on your username+password so the MD5 of your music cd is different from everyone else's. Though I'm not sure about this. -
Inappropriate?No, the privacy policy explicitly states that if an adversary knows the *exact* content, they could possibly prove that you are storing that file.
As far as I understand the Wuala system, they could not, however, prove that you actually shared that file with someone else, even if you did.
I'm not an employee, so I might very well have misunderstood that part, though.
In the Google Talk it was mentioned that Wuala can avoid storing the same file, uploaded by different users, twice, so my guess would be that files are encrypted using the hash of that file. So if someone has the exact same file, they might be able to find other instances of the file in the network. Again, I don't think they could actually prove that you shared it with anyone else (though, again, I might be wrong, and they just can't say with whom you have shared something).
An official response would be good to have, though. -
Inappropriate?Rapidshare also claims to be a web-based storage system, the only difference is that you cannot access the files you uploaded if their servers are down - Wuala distributes your files all over their peers but allows you to store less data initially than RS to make "donating" traffic and storage space more attractive.
What I really like about Wuala is that the files are encrypted, so it might be possible to store my ripped CDs online and if I want to listen to my musik I can download it anywhere I want (more reliable than RS, faster, without having to wait + restrictions as a "free" user and hopefully more secure)
On the other hand it could be as well problematic since somewhat similar filesharing systems like "OFF" (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owner_Fr...) already have problems with child pornography and other internet scum.
That's why I'm asking, on one hand, I don't want someone to get away with storing THAT kind of illegal files (potentially on my computer) but on the other hand it might be possible, that my mp3 collection from my CDs could be considered illegal!
I’m undecided
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Inappropriate?Well it's logical that they store the file encrypted with some kind of hash and not encrypted with the user certificate - duplicates aren't nice and unnessecary. I've read the privcy policy and somethnig seems to be wrong there:
"Solange eine Datei nicht öntlich ist, kann nicht einmal Caleido diese entschlü."
vs.
"Dritte, die den exakten Inhalt einer Datei kennen, kön unter Umstäen nachweisen, dass Sie diese Datei gespeichert oder darauf zugegriffen haben, auch wenn Sie die Datei nicht mit diesen Dritten geteilt haben."
Looks like they could potentially use their hashing+crypto algorithm to allow plaintext attacks... If by bad chance I have ripped one of my CDs the exact same way as some "internet terrorist" (aka. filesharer) which is likely since I use Lame which is commonly used I could be potentially in trouble for having such a file in my private folder!
Since no appraiser would say that this file could be a potential hash-collision Mediadefender + co wouldn't even have to decrypt files to send me some "nice" mail - and since the amount in dispute can be up to a few 100.000€ for ~10 songs I don't really feel that confident to get a lawyer and try to fight for my right... -
Inappropriate?as it has been said before, crypt your files independantly of wuala and then dump em to the wuala storagesystem. simple as that. trust noone but your own tech. then you have maximum security.
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Inappropriate?Well, if I have to pack + crypt my files I can also use any one-click-hoster out there... You can easily code some UI for the Rapidshare API for example and dump your files without any limit there.
I liked the approach of Wuala of crypting everything with AES (even though I'd prefer AES256...) so I don't have the trouble with packing all files and to be able to listen to mp3s while they are being downloaded...
Well, maybe I'll have to write a tool that adds some data to all my mp3 files (for example: a few random bytes as comment in a tag) so the checksums are more unique. -
Inappropriate?oneclick hosters are pretty complicated when it comes to terms of storage. its based on webbrowsers, upload scripts, have trouble with timeouts, cant make the use of redundant storage, free of cost, easily accessible from anywhere.
you are really comparing apples and oranges and refuse to see you are pretty pointless.
so why dont we all stop using wuala anyways, and move over to the bazillion webhosters that are out there.
try to answer yourself this question.
wakie wakie.... -
Inappropriate?It's based on webbrowsers -- I guess they have some kind of database on their end... ;-)
upload scripts -- Or handy tools like http://rapidshare.com/de/rapiduploade... RS.com has an API btw, xou can easily write something similar yourself
have trouble with timeouts -- well, there are enough tools out there to circumvent IP blocking and/or timeouts
can't make the use of redundant storage -- If one file get's blacklisted on RS you cannot up or download any file with the same MD5
free of cost -- That's a plus in my opinion...?
easily accessible from anywhere -- this as well - you don't even need a client to access your files (but Wuala can be easily made portable, so that's not really an issue)
The big pluses of Wuala are imho:
+ YOU decide who may access which file, noone can find your links via Google for example
+ No need for packing or encrypting files before storing them (that's what I want to verify)
+ Nice interface (eyecandy!)
+ does not rely on the main servers and the devs were smart enough to include reundancy to the blocks by default
+ some Web 2.0 features that I personally don't need but are nice to have for some people I guess
+ Streaming capabilities for certain files
+ Nice developers who talk to their customers (very important imho!) -
Inappropriate?Hi everyone. Here's the official response. Sorry for the delay.
Wuala is secure by design. However, it is (for good reasons) not completely anonymous (you can for example always see which user the owner of a published file is). I'll explain all of this including the catch related to duplicate files here in detail.
1. Wuala is secure by design. Only you and those authorized by you can access your data. Not even we, the Wuala admins, can see your files unless you publish them. We do not know your password.
2. When inserting a file, it gets encrypted with a key that is generated from the hash (SHA-256, not MD5) of its content. That way, files with identical content will get encrypted the same way and we can still detect them as duplicates even after encryption. This saves storage, but it might allow others to find out if your computer is storing or accessing a file whose content is known.
3. So, what could a clever hacker find out about you and your files?
A clever hacker could trade some storage in the Wuala network and monitor Wuala's traffic. That way, he can detect whenever another computer in the Wuala network tries to store or retrieve a file fragment stored on his computer. If the hacker knows the file the fragment belongs to, he can assume that whatever user is sitting at the other computer (identified by its IP address) is accessing/storing that given file. However, we are considering to introduce anonymous maintenance (see below) which would (as a side effect) make it impossible to tell for sure whether the given file has really been accessed/stored by a user or whether it was just an anonymous maintenance upload/download.
Anonyomus Maintenance: this is a feature we have planned to introduce soon but have not officially announced it until now. One of the problems when storing lots if data in Wuala is the need for a local backup which occupies lots of local storage space. Currently, we use the local backup to perform file maintenance. In future, however, file maintenance won't be done by the owner any more, but by random computers in the Wuala network and our servers when they don't have much else to do. With random maintenance enabled, your computer will sometimes download and reupload random files (without being able to encrypt them) to ensure their availability. The main advantages are that your files will still be maintained even if you are on a long vacation, that we can get rid of the local backup and that we can globally focus on maintaining those files whoes availability is the most critical. Also nice is the side effect of having better anonymity as mentioned above. What do you think about this feature? Would you enable anonymous maintenance?
4. What a hacker won't find out.
So a clever hacker might find out that a computer identified by its IP-Address is uploading or downloading a given file, but won't be able to tell for sure that whatever user sits at that computer is viewing/storing the file. Furthermore, the hacker won't see any metadata at all (filename, comments, owner, etc.). He won't see any information about in which folder the file has been stored and can't tell whether the file has been shared or not.
We believe that we have found a reasonable design that allows for high security without significantly hurting performance. We could for example increase anonymity by relaying all traffic over multiple stations (like freenet or tor is doing). However, that would render any streaming or fast file access impossible. To answer the initial question: Yes, Wuala is secure. However, we ask you to use Wuala responsibly and in accordance with the law (see also our terms of service).
The company and 7 other people say
this answers the question
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Inappropriate?Ah great, I already wanted to ask if somethong like this "anonymous maintenance" could be added - great feature! I would enable it for sure, as it helps file availability AND anonymousity and helps people who aren't that much online as well (I guess that will be the majority, if Wuala goes beta + final...)
The only possible security hole I can think of, if that "anonymous maintenace" is implemented, could be the password-encryption on your side - if they are just hashed without salt (see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_%28...) Rainbow attacks could be possible if someone gets your login-database. I hope you have thought about that possibility, even some really big projects have been successfully attacked...
I'm perfectly fine with your approach and am looking forward to "anonymous maintenace" -
Inappropriate?Yes, I like the ideia and I would definitely use anonymous maintenance rather than local backup.
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Inappropriate?I just want to come up again with this thread and just wanna say: Yes, Yes, I want to use anonymous maintenance as soon as possible.
I’m thankful
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Inappropriate?omg this duplicated files thing actually works. Today I instantaneously uploaded a 70MB file. I took me a while to figure out what happened... I only believed the file was uploaded when I logged in on another computer and tried to download it.
I’m silly
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Inappropriate?How I know that the encryption key is not sent to the admins? Is the key derived from the (weak) password making it easy to make a brute force attack?
I’m undecided
4 Comments Add a comment
This answers the question
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There are different keys: one key for your "Cryptree" (best described as a "keyring") that is derived from your password that you enter on login with the username as salt and hashed 100 000 (?) times with SHA 256 to prevent bruteforcing + rainbow-tables and the passwords to decrypt the individual parts which are derived from the SHA256 hash of the parts. All the admins have is a encrypted file in wich all your keys to files you own + can access are, and this is encrypted with the Username + PW you enter at login. Luzius, please correct me if I'm wrong! ;-) -
Ok, that was convincing. Now I only need the source code to verify that my password remains at client...;-)
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Ok, that was convincing. Now I only need the source code to verify that my password remains at client...;-)
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@bugreport: nice post, you've been doing some homework ;)
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Inappropriate?How is it possible to access my data from another computer if the password remains on the client (as stated in Wuala FAQ) ?2 Comments Add a comment
This answers the question
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You just enter the password on that other computer.
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The Password gets hashed + then stored on the Server (think of it like the sum of the digits: Your password is 123 and "6" gets stored on the server because 1+2+3=6. Hash funktions work similar, only a little bit more complicated, to make sure 42 doesn't work as well as password ;-) ) Your originla password "123" however never leaves the client, and if an attacker finds the "6" on the server, he has no Idea if the real password was 123, 42, 33, 51...?
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