I’m frustrated, disgusted fed-up.

VERY weird triggering on my Strike Pro.

I've had my Strike Pro since November 2107. The module was replaced as the headphone socket created an unusable hum after a few minutes. The Hi-hat was replaced as it was useless (still is - I've switched to a Roland VH11). I'm on the latest software version. My kit is on a carpeted, insulated wooden drum riser about 6 inches off the floor. It has it's own thermal curtain that draws around the riser and a heater in there keeps it's little environment at about 15 degrees. In short, it's kept in a near perfect environment - it's cossetted.
I really don't want to appear negative - the kit sounds amazing through the headphones and also through the Alto TS215 powered speakers I've recently purchased. UNTIL, that is, the boys in the band come round.
I found that the bass, snare, and several of the toms were showing as triggering on the module but without actually triggering (flashing up on the screen) while the other band members were tuning up and generally doing what guitarists/bass players do. It wasn't particularly an issue until the kit started mis-triggering, missing notes that I was playing - particularly noticeable on the bass drum, but present on the snare, hi-hat and various toms at various times when we were at full volume in the middle of a song.
I spoke to technical advice about it and was advised to turn the X/talk down to zero, in case the drum sensors were picking up on sound waves produced by the other instruments. Had a jam this evening and tried it on zero and also with it set to maximum, in case I'd misunderstood him. Either way the situation continued. I noticed that the bass drum was showing as triggering and at the same time, was getting a muffled hum through the speaker.
I got the guitarist to play a note (the one that affected it most was either 14th fret on the A string or 12th fret on the B string) over and over while I beat the bass drum at about 120bpm. A beat failed to register about 1 in 5. Often 3 or more beats were missed in a row - all while he was playing his note. As soon as he stopped, the bass played perfectly.
Somehow, the kit sensors are picking up on the frequencies created by the other band members, tricking the module into thinking that a note is being played and so, when I actually play a note, nothing happens.
I wondered if anyone else had had this issue? Also whether anyone at Alesis had any thoughts? I am intending to speak to technical advice tomorrow but thought I'd raise it in the meantime.
Either way, it's entirely unacceptable that the kit is only playable on its own. I play in a band, we play gigs and, to be honest, the kit, as it is, is utterly useless as it is. This is a great shame as it has the potential to be a really great piece of kit and, when played on its own, sounds amazing.
I am however at the end of my tether - each time I get one problem solved, something else comes up. I am fed up and on the verge of sending it back as being unfit for purpose and asking for my money back.

Very sad about this. I feel cheated and let down, am nearly £3000 down after buying the kit, speakers and replacement hi-hat and still don't have a kit I can play unless I'm on my own.
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  • I’m confident
    Hey there Richard.
    I too have been playing my Strike Pro kit in live venues. Since we use a complete in-ear system (A&H ME-1's) we have negligible stage volume. Its a far cleaner sound with everything going through the FOH. once reason I use E-Kit is venues love us since we can turn down to suit without loosing the mojo.
    I've done away with the hi-hat and cymbals and using Ziljian Gen-16 bronze with my own DIY triggers. I have found the Alesis cymbals are the kit major let down. Can't choke, irregular volume!! and the many more issue I see on the forum. I believe the stike needs some more firmware updates to fix this.

    Rather than complain to Alesis and get their standard rely of adjust this and change that I've moved on to solutions which work. Hitting real cymbals feels better and looks cooler in my opinion.

    In a nut shel,l believe you have a resonance with the bass cabinet and the kick drum? Have you thought about using a GEQ to find the frequency and tune it out of the bass amp? It would be my first off to eliminate/minimise the false triggering of the kick drum. Moving the bass cabinet to a different position even works. I also do Live sound and familiar with problems with room peaks and troughs. Give you an idea I have a rectangle shaped rehearsal room and have a GEQ (Graphic Equaliser) permanently in my rack to make the room flat as possible. 160Hz was one of the frequencies which shook the filling out of your head. A -8db cut sorted my issues with a few other odd frequencies up the band.

    Worth a try before moving forward.

    Rob
    • Thanks Rob, for your really detailed reply - much appreciated. I think maybe that we're in a slightly different position to you though. We live on the Isle of Skye, west coat of Scotland and any gigs we play are small (like you, one of the reasons I bought an electronic kit, was so I could turn down the volume) and the rehearsal room is my garage at home.
      I honestly think that if one has to go to the sort of measures that you're advising, then there's a problem with the kit/hardware/software - it shouldn't be that difficult. I can't imagine that there are many Roland TD50 players having the same issue.
      I'm convinced that there's a specific issue with the sensors picking up on specific frequencies as you suggest - my argument is that they SHOULDN'T!!!!!
      I've solved the hi-hat issue with a VH11 (largely anyway...) but I'll see what Alesis have to say later when I call them, I'm not prepared to have to start fine tuning everything just to get the thing to work - the whole ethos at Alesis of adjusting this and that and tweaking this and lowering the other is ridiculous. The bloody thing should work straight out of the box without having to spend hours tweaking settings.
      Thanks again for your advice Rob, all the best, Richard.
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  • Also I wonder do you have a guitar cabinet or bass cabinet pointed at you so that you can hear them as well? I would be looking at in ears as well for numerous reasons. But if that's not an option I would try to make sure no cabs are pointed directly at your kit so you aren't taking the brunt of it. Otherwise I really don't have a ton of advice. I do hope you get it sorted.
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    • Hi Bill, no it didn't - the problem was exactly the same with the new loom as the old one. We are now looking at the whole kit going back to the factory for testing. My supplier is having real difficulties getting any sort of service from In Music and has had to send out a 'nasty email' today to try and get a response - despite the help desk advising me that it needed to come back to you last week,
      The Strike Pro is now all packed away in the boxes it came in and I'm waiting for instructions before sending it on its way. My Mapex Armoury kit is back in service and another week has gone by making about 5 in total where I've not been able to use my £2100 flagship Alesis 'professional' quality drum kit, since the end of November.
      So yes, there is something you can do to help Bill - give someone's a rocket for me please and get this issue sorted once and for all before I give up, send the kit back myself, get my money back and buy a Roland instead.
      Thanks Bill, much appreciated.
    • BILL - ARE YOU MONITORING THIS THREAD REGARDING THIS ISSUE? Below is a reply I've had from Eric Whelpey, someone also suffering the same issue - Alesis should be utterly ashamed of themselves - please have the common decency to answer this concern with something more than a smiley face and a useless message.

      Richard, Thanks for fighting the good fight. I have not got the time to chase this down with an unresponsive support team. As you said, hopefully someone at Alesis is taking notice. My strategy will be to unload this thing at a loss, on someone just looking for silent practice, and then write my Amazon review. I made my choice based on the reviews. My review will be that it is not fit for gigging. Please keep us posted if there is progress. Thanks!

      Unfortunately - I don't have the cash to simply do what Eric is suggesting.

      Richard.
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  • I'm having the same issues. I use the Strike Pro for gigs in small venues. During certain songs the base drum cuts out for short periods of time. I had originally thought it was a power problem. I have been unable to figure out what the issue is, but I am anxious to learn what the resolution is here.
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  • Hi Eric, I'm actually glad that someone else is having the same issue (really sorry!) It's just that it seemed I was the only person having these sort of problems.
    My kit is awaiting collection by InMusic to go back to be tested, however, I's now been boxed up and ready to go for two weeks yet ANOTHER two weeks without my kit and in all likelihood, it will be ANOTHER month before it's been tested and returned/fixed/binned/scrapped. Hopefully they will be able to pin-point something as being wrong and either fix it or, better still, just replace it for a new one that doesn't need fixing in the first place.
    I literally had to have a rant to get them to collect the item rather than me having to send it back via courier and, whilst I'm not proud that I very nearly lost it for a while on the phone, the frustration is so great that I had to stop myself exploding!
    I am genuinely glad that they've agreed to take it back and honestly believe that the agents do want to help but, if someone comes back to me saying 'sorry, we can't find anything wrong', I'm going to reject the kit as being 'unfit for purpose' and start the process of getting my money back.
    Insincere, hollow platitudes such as the one left by 'Bill R' above (to which I've heard nothing back from) really doesn't help.
    I'm afraid that my experience with Alesis and their agents has being a pretty shoddy one - a potentially great kit ruined by poor development, software issues, hardware problems and far too many glitches for a kit costing £2100.
    Really is a shame because, if they could have got it right, it really would be a genuine competitor to the Roland crown - the module alone and its modern look and capabilities won me over - but if mine is deemed to be 'OK' then a Roland I will have to get.
    I'll keep the forum updated with any progress but would urge you to get back to your supplier/Alesis in the meantime so they know that there is an issue with this sort of thing - like you, I put up with it for a while until it got too noticeable to ignore and I got to the point where 'enough was enough'. (I get the feeling that many/most of the Strike/Pro kits out there are played by people via their headphones and not in a live, noisy setting where other instruments and frequencies can trigger problems.)
    Cheers, Richard.
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  • I believe I just encountered this last night at my gig. Thank you for posting it. As weird as it sounds, it made me feel better to know and discover a path to concentrate my efforts in finding a solution.

    Some background in the situation. I had just recently moved into a condo and bought the Strike to replace my acoustic kit. With that said, I don’t play on the Strike very often since we rehearse at a studio with an acoustic kit. I’m new to the condo life and not sure what types of sounds are still transmitted through the walls and floor from an electronic kit (ie sounds of hitting the pads etc. All of the actual drum sounds would be going through the headphones).

    We’re a leisure group of musicians who play for fun and are the house band for a small local business. We play maybe 3-4 times a year at their business location which is a small venue (1600 sq ft or so for the actual stage/listening area). The acoustic kit was too loud for the available space and the electronic kit was the perfect fit.

    Back to the story, I did practice on the Strike for about an hour before I disassembled it. Everything played great (minus the known quirks) and once re-assembled at the venue, I did a quick check to make sure everything was in order. I didn’t notice any missed notes at that time either.

    During sound check I wasn’t playing an intricate beat. Just a simple beat to allow the guys to balance the sound out with their equipment. I did notice what I thought was a few missing notes at this time but I shrugged it off thinking maybe I didn’t hear it (I typically have in ear monitors and route all of the instruments into my mixer it I wasn’t wearing it during sound check).

    During the gig, it would miss 2-3 out of 10 hits at minimum. Most of the missed notes were from the hi hat. There some missed notes from the bass, snare and second crash but very minor in comparison. In between songs I would just play intricate beats on the hi hat and varied the velocity and it picked everything up which left me confused as to what the problem was. My initial thought was that there was an issue with the sensors. I even rebooted the module in between sets (say 4-5 songs) to see if it would fix it and it didn’t.

    Finding this thread gave me some relief as it does kind of explain the anomaly that I experienced last night. Thankfully I’m not a pro musician who relies on this kit day in and out but that’s not an excuse for Alesis. I’m sure those of us who spent a good chunk of coin to buy this kit would have thought the Strike would be a viable option to use for light to moderate gigs if/when the need came up.
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  • Hi Winston, it's a real shame that the kit has so many issues. Mine went back to InMusic last week to be tested so we'll see what they say. I have contacted them again to let them know that I'm not alone and that there are other people having the same issues when playing live, with other musicians.
    I don't know how much good it will do though - 'customer service' doesn't seem to be high on the agenda unless it's something that can be fixed very easily.
    Anyone having this issue should report it to their supplier/Alesis - it appears to be more common than I originally thought - the way you described the issue with the hi-hat was perfect and exactly as I experienced it. Does that also happen when you have an external audio input connected, such as a an I-pod etc.?
    Be interesting to know.
    Report the issue though!
    Cheers,
    Richard.
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  • I'm wondering if any trigger indicators on the module panel are flickering with just the guitars playing and If so maybe the polyphony limit is being exceeded when also hitting the pads.

    Although I don't own a Strike kit you could try increasing Threshold or Retrigger settings for some of the triggers (refer to U/G p18).
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  • Hi Rhys, thanks for your comment and for trying to help - you're probably correct in what you're suggesting. Thing is, the Strike Pro is sold as a 'professional' level drum kit that's designed to be used in every situation from with headphones in the bedroom through to playing with a thrash metal band.
    I've spent hours altering settings and trying different tweaks to no avail - the fact is, it shouldn't happen with a drum kit costing over £2000.
    Richard.
    • Yeah apparently Alesis didn't consider testing for interference from other band gear or they've found out too late to make any effective hardware changes.

      This problem can possibly be minimized with ideas from community 'beta-testers' like with improvements made to the Strike hi-hat by some astute users,
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  • Hi Richard,

    I have played with an external audio input (via iPod / Laptop / phone) and I haven't noticed any missed notes however I was not using drumless tracks which would have been more noticeable if it missed triggering. I will need to set it back up and try.

    Did the issue also present itself while you were using the audio input? I will definitely report it. Seems to be more widespread than I had originally thought.

    rhysT - I was looking at the display quite a bit while I was playing at the gig and I didn't notice any "extra" hits during the moments where the drums were not present. From a visual stand point it seemed to have been normal and displaying my own hits properly even though it didn't send the sound output.
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  • 1
    Hi Winston - I was learning a track by Queens of the Stone Age - 'no One Knows'. The hi-hat builds with a progression of semi and then almost completely open notes as it goes towards the chorus and break. When playing along to it, the hi-hat simply failed to respond to the pedal being lifted at all, until it was entirely up.
    Without the audio track, it plays perfectly well (I say perfectly well - I am using a Roldan VH11 hi-hat as the Alesis one is, in my opinion, utter junk).

    Rhys - with the rest of the band playing, the module lights up like a firework display sometimes and I just sit and watch as all the toms, cymbals, bass and snare shows that I'm hitting them. Very frustrating - MUST be down to frequency/interference.
    R
    • Hey Richard, are you listening via headphones or amp & speakers when playing along with the audio tracks?

      Also something to try on each pad is rotating the "sensitivity focus" knob fully clockwise (as explained in a Strike FAQ: http://www.alesis.com/kb/article/2332...) which could limit their outer pad sensor from causing possible false triggering into the module.
    • Hi Rhys, I usually play along via the headphones and an i-pod, that's when I noticed the issue described above. So, in that instance, it's not even an external interference but an internal audio issue.
      I've tried altering the sensitivity knobs from the middle setting to all different stages between fully open and fully closed. No noticeable difference. Also tried messing with the X/talk settings, after speaking with the tech help desk. Again, no real noticeable improvement either way.
      Very frustrating!
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  • Hi Richard,

    I'm currently still using the Strike hi-hat. I figured I would try to make it work before adding extra expenses although it would likely be beneficial to just go ahead and buy a VH11.

    I'll pay more attention to the display and pick an easier track to follow in on for testing purposes.

    The only other thing I can think of that might play a part is that I attached the loom to the rack for aesthetics at smaller intervals. At home, I just let them sag a bit and only have maybe 2-3 anchoring points. Perhaps being attached to the rack more tightly plays a role in why I didn't notice this earlier.
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  • Possibly so Winston. The thing is though, if the equipment is so sensitive and unpredictable that having the wires neatly strapped to the rack causes interference, then it's really not fit for purpose at all. I made excuses for my kit right from the off but have had enough now - it's a drum kit; it should be able to be played in a live situation; it gets hit with sticks so it should be robust enough to cope with normal playing.
    I think they've tried to be too clever with it and have compromised in all sorts of areas that they shouldn't have and haven't got the kit working exactly right before it was launched.
    Mine's been back at Alesis now for over a week but I've heard nothing as yet. Very disappointing.
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  • I agree with you 100%. I was looking at the Roland TD50 and I just couldn’t justify the price tag for what I needed it to be. The Strike was like a Prosumer option for me. It sounded perfect.

    I didn’t need all the bells and whistles but I wanted the large head sizes and mesh heads. The TD30 was no longer available and I didn’t quite like the TD25 offerings at the store.

    I thought maybe the Alesis made the most sense. It was a compromise up the middle. I got the mesh and large playing surfaces. I got the decent looking kit. I knew there would be a compromise somewhere in terms of build quality and sound. What I didn’t expect was this.. a unit / partner that was temperamental, needy (for attention), high maintenance and came with excess baggage. That’s not a good recipe for a long lasting relationship.
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  • You've absolutely hit the nail on the head - your reasons for purchase were exactly the same as mine and yes, the Alesis appeared to be an absolutely perfect choice.
    I just hope someone - ANYONE at Alesis is taking some notice of these comments, however, since 'Bill' the Alesis employee who asked me to get back to him if there was anything he could do, hasn't responded after over three weeks since I last contacted him, I seriously doubt it.
    I'll keep this thread up to date when I get my kit back but, if they say there's nothing wrong with it, it's going to stay with them and I'm going to be asking for my money back.
    All the best, Richard.
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  • Richard, Thanks for fighting the good fight. I have not got the time to chase this down with an unresponsive support team. As you said, hopefully someone at Alesis is taking notice. My strategy will be to unload this thing at a loss, on someone just looking for silent practice, and then write my Amazon review. I made my choice based on the reviews. My review will be that it is not fit for gigging. Please keep us posted if there is progress. Thanks!
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  • Morning Eric,
    I've forwarded your response on to Bill, the employee who replied to one of my posts about a month ago.
    It's quite a sad state of affairs really. I will not give up until it's either sorted or I've got my money back.
    Cheers, Richard.
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  • Just heard from the supplier that a new kit is being dispatched direct to me. They confirm that they replicated the issues and have authorised a replacement. I would suggest that anyone who's having the same issue, gets on to their supplier ort direct to Alesis/InMusic for a replacement.
    They've not said what the problem is, just the fact that they've replicated it and that it's obviously not right.
    Glad that it's (possibly) sorted, but the whole episode has left a bad taste in my mouth and has been quite a stressful, difficult process.
    I'll get back with how the new one performs and if it's the same, it will be going back for good.
    Cheers.
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  • Post vids on Youtube, get this stuff out there. I would pay a slightly higher premium for a kit like this if it would just work properly. Instead, I'm going to be stuck buying a TD-11kv with tiny pads, but confident that the thing will work as it's supposed to, for a long time as well. Come on Alesis help us out!
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  • Morning Paul. I'd gladly post stuff onto YouTube but unfortunately, where I live (Isle of Skye) our internet connection is pretty slow and to upload a 2 minute clip takes all night.
    Would you not got for a second hand TD25 rather than the 11? The tiny pads would do my head in. This will be the third module, third hi-hat (will probably be consigned straight to the bin) and second full kit that I've had since buying the bloody thing in November last year and I'm still not confident that, if I ever get the replacement kit (see below), it's going to work properly. If not, I will be sending it back, getting my money back and then going for something (anything) with a Roland badge on it - new or second hand. Hopefully it will work just fine though and still be doing so in years to come (got to stay positive!)
    An update on my situation - A new kit was supposed to be sent out to me direct. Had an email from the supplier yesterday saying it had arrived with them and 'what was I expecting to be sent back?' I told them and they informed me that they'd been sent a Strike rather than the Pro version. On to Alesis ready to give them a bollocking only to be told that the stores would have simply put replacements to what I sent back, in a Strike box. I apologised. Thought I'd just get the store to check though. What was in the box? A complete Strike kit and not just boxes containing what I'd sent to them. The upshot is that they are sending the correct 'Pro' kit direct to me.
    Sorry to say it but Alesis - and their distributor in the UK, InMusic Brands are utterly dreadful and should be ashamed of themselves. One employee recently said to me -'It's alright for you, you don't have to work here...' Sort of says it all.
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  • Hi Richard. I'm pleased to hear you're from the land of my favorite Scotch, Talisker! :)

    Indeed it is a problem, reliability, and employee satisfaction sometimes go hand in hand. However, I'm sure the employees that we speak to from ALesis aren't from mainland China, where they manufacture their gear. Imagine how terrible it is to be an employee there. Ugh.

    Thanks for your reply!
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  • This reply was removed on 2018-04-23.
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  • This is terribly disappointing to hear. I bought a Strike Kit last month, and the Hi Hat is indeed not fixable. Regardless of firmware and settings. In fact, within two weeks, the edge on mine died. Fortunately, I'm just a hobbyist.

    I have noticed some odd resonant notes being played, but I've been so focused watching Youtube vids, reading Facebook links, and PDF docs on how to fix this dreaded hi hat, I haven't had time to focus on those.

    THose cheap foam pillars don't inspire any confidence, and I would never use this kit live, just my opinion of course. I also have a feeling they are contributing to the ghost notes that you're heading.

    I hope Alesis does something like a recall for this kit, and sends upgraded replacement parts out to those who are willing to fix these design flaws once they resolve them. The sound and feel potential are fantastic here, but the reliability is traditional Alesis...
    • Hi Paul, if you're just using the kit for playing on your own or as an extra kit, then you'll probably be fine (hi-hat aside), but as soon as you put it in the same room as other electronic instruments/amps/speakers, it will become unplayable.
      The thing is that, to get a decent alternative kit, you need to be spending £5K+. I've been checking out what's on offer and there are a few second hand Roland TD30s about for half decent money, but you'd still be needing to add £1K to your Alesis price.
      Up to you what you do obviously but I am fairly certain I'm just going to go back to my Mapex Armoury kit (that thankfully I haven't sold yet) and give it a revamp with some new cymbals and skins with the refund.
      Hope you get sorted but one thing is for sure - whether you're a hobbyist or a serious gigger, the kit SHOULD WORK!!! If you bought a TV that you had to fiddle about with and move wires to exactly the right spot to get it to work, it would soon be back to the shop.
      The Strike Pro, in my opinion, is not fit for purpose.
      Good luck though.
      Richard.
    • I agree entirely Richard!
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  • Just expanding on my previous comments about Strike's polyphony limit (likely 64 notes) I suspect the pad head's outer sensor clear plastic plate may be resonating at various guitar note frequencies and exceeding the polyphony limit, which can possibly suppress some drum or cymbal sounds.
    It could be worth trying to open circuit the outer piezo's wiring inside a pad at the sensitivity control PC board to see if it reduces false triggering indicated on the module's display.
    • Sorry Rhys but when I spend £2100 on an electronic drum kit (especially one that's been hyped up the whazzoo on YouTube for months prior to its release as the best thing Alesis have ever made and, as a professional grade instrument) I'm not prepared to take the kit apart and mess with micro-electronics just to get it to work. It's a seriously flawed piece of kit.
      I you spent £2000 on a guitar and the pick-ups didn't work properly, I think you'd be sending it back to either be fixed or replaced.
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  • Yeah I agree you shouldn't have to do any beta testing for a 'flagship' product and my suggestion was mainly intended for the technical brains trust at Alesis.
    I assume the DM10 mesh pads with just the central plastic sensor plate are less prone to the false triggering problem evident with Strike kit pads.
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  • I’m giving up with Alesis
    My final entry was removed from the Alesis forum because it apparently discussed 'Legal Matters' - Sorry Alesis, sincere apologies.

    I'm fairly sure that the employee/moderator who removed it was the same who offered his help about 6 weeks ago and yet hasn't replied to a single other comment - by me or anyone else - since.

    Anyway, I've taken away any potentially libelous material and re-posted my final comments on the matter.

    Pity that Alesis aren't quite as quick to sort real quality and performance issues with their flagship, 'Professional' quality drum kit as they are to remove comments that breach their etiquette rules.

    The final straw.
    Just thought I'd update this sorry saga. New kit finally arrived - in two deliveries over a week apart. Set it up and played it on my own - seemed OK other than the dreadful hi-hat (still). Played with the band last night (well, one guitarist anyway) and the same old issues of fake triggering just carried on as if it was the same old faulty kit.
    I've emailed InMusic this morning and await their reply but basically, I've had it with the kit and want shut of the bloody thing. Really is such a shame but I'm not prepared to put up with it any longer - neither should any of you having the same issues. It's a poorly/cheaply designed, faulty product that is not fit for purpose (unless you can put up with the hi-hat and only play it in your bedroom, on your own.
    My email to InMusic appears below for anyone interested (the video clip showed the module lighting up as the guitarist played some random chords.
    Totally gutted about the whole episode and now am stuck with either going back to the acoustic kit or forking out an extra £3K to have a kit that actually does what it's supposed to do.
    Keep smiling.
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  • At least Alesis isn't deleting your posts like they did to mine! The used market for the Strike kit and Pro will be pretty full in a few months! Buy used!
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  • A used Strike Pro? They're so flawed and full of issues that even a used one for £1000 would be impossible to justify buying.
    I've said it before but it's SUCH A SHAME - the potential was great, just so full of issues.
    It said it all to me that Bill, the moderator offered help and when I asked for it, he never bothered replying, but as soon as I said something that was potentially libelous, he deleted my post, so he was watching, just not bothering to comment on all the issues people were talking about.
    My kit's now back at InMusic and hopefully my refund will be due soon.
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  • Bill deleted mine as well, when I simply asked how many users gave up on the Strike hi hat and moved to a VH11. Here I was actually trying to enhance the kit with an inquiry, but... What a shame.

    I must add, however, that I've received fairly prompt and quality service from their help desk and service teams that are not on this forum, by using their support form on the website.
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  • someone has actually been sterilizing the whole forum of even useful information about the kit. I honestly don't understand what is going on. Vitrol and venom whatever. But to actually go and just eliminate good conversations with information that really helped people is just mind boggling. I wont be posting in a place that operates like that.
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