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Con (Official Rep) September 25, 2012 02:00

Ammo as a Resource



Let's talk about ammunition.

We're currently working on an ammunition system that introduces ammunition to the game as a consumable resource.

Compound Basics
- Ammunition is a dropped item, like wood, metal, cloth, food and water
- It has it's own storage which can be upgraded
- It has it's own drop-off which can be upgraded
- Ammunition is a general resource that is used for all firearms

Mission Basics
- Ammunition is UNLIMITED during missions
- Ammunition is NOT dropped as specific calibers but as general "ammo"
- Each weapon has an ammo cost
- The ammo cost for each weapon is deducted each time it is used on a mission
- Ammunition does not apply when defending your compound
- Ammunition storage can be raided
- Ammunition gear items are now called Ammunition Mods
- We might allow crafting of ammo resource from Ammuniton Mod parts

How does it relate to weapons?
Each weapon has an "ammo cost" - this cost is determined by the rate of fire, the capacity of the weapon and the value of it's ammunition. It's not a formula so it's individually balanced based on the weapon type and it's general effectiveness.

The ammo cost is deducted from your ammo resource for every mission you run with that weapon. It is a set amount and does not vary.

For example - .22 caliber rounds are far more common and less valuable than 7.62×51mm rifle rounds. As a result, using a Manning has an ammo cost of around 15, whereas the M-24 is much more expensive at about 75.

But melee sucks.
We hear you. Along with this update we're looking at doing a lot of things to make melee more exciting and effective.

Discussion thread about melee here: https://getsatisfaction.com/deadzone/...

- More melee weapons at higher levels
- New animations
- New effects
- Critical hit animations
- Custom critical kill animations (axe stuck in head, leverage out with foot etc)
- AI improvements
- Grab / Breakout situations

Why are you doing this?
We realized that the game had lost a large chunk of it's survival by not restricting ammunition at all. We want to bring back the terror and the challenge of being forced into difficult situations, it's what the zombie genre is about for us. We want to bring back hard choices.

It's also a tool for us to re-balance some of the weapons in the game. There are a handful of go to weapons for a lot of players. The reality is the highest powered and largest capacity weapons possible will carry a high ammo value. We're hoping that this broadens the weapon choices of users and makes PvE and raiding a lot more interesting.

Melee is ignored by nearly everyone at the moment and we want to bring it back to the limelight. It can be brutal and fun - we're looking at games like Dawn of War for inspiration and wanting to bring that level of impact to the combat.

Overall, we just want to make the game a struggle again a real fight for survival.

Let us know what you think!
We're open to ideas here. Let us know what you think of the change and if we've missed any scenarios where you think it might not work.

We know it's a huge shift in the game, we hope that most of you will be happy with it.

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  • I’m excited
    i like it its cool by the way i couldn't find your suggestion forum but if someone

    could send me that link it'd be great and i was wondering if you guys could maybe

    make ammunition crafting and some other not only fuel but i mean like waiting not

    to big lol processes with out using fuel i'm new to the game only level 9 so the

    update alone gonna be a big change but sounds fun and again please put some

    thought into
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  • Con, could you give us a heads up on likely ammo locker maximum capacity? While I believe it will be well over a maximum theoretical ammo cost for one mission, there are some speculations that it'd be below that...
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  • Is this according to the Melee Love idea? If so, it's OK. High expectative on melee rising after the Resorce update. For the time being, melee will stay the same level due to the "ammo cost" not counting yet, but now melee is at a good place.
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  • I’m unsure
    when will this take effect?
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  • Is this feature going to make the game more fun?
    Micromanaging isn't always more fun. Like, I'm glad I don't have to empty the trash (some games make you do this).
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  • I’m frustrated
    damn >:l i guess im going to be repairing alot of my buildings now -_-
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  • I’m Happy if they're going to make it
    Would be great since using guns and mowing down waves upon waves of Zeds are getting boring :3

    New area and some new high level meele weapons would be nice too :3

    and Ohhh how bout weapon specialization for the leader too ^^

    would be great if ammo crafting is just wait time not by fuel :3
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  • can i use my 4104 shell casings and 8232 gunpowders to craft additional ammo? i'd be kinda pissed if i had little or no ammo and all that ammo making material!

    make more atypical melee weapons. i love the guitar, i always wanted to use one, but they always sucked compared to my other weapons.
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  • Good hits, right on target Con. My thoughts:

    1. Hope this takes care of the griefers who dismantle their structures and raid all day long.

    2. Making ammo limited in mission would add a sense of urgency and desperation sorely lacking. This helps, but I advise you be a little more Machiavellian and do all your ills at once, if you can. Can always loosen the collar at your leisure. Stop short and you get to hear the masses whine all over again.

    3. Along with that, ammo cost should vary if you can swing it. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you barely get out with your skin. A little randomness won't hurt. Think of it as the Art and Science of zombie survival.

    3. If you do allow crafting of ammo, I think there should be a low gas cost or free crafting option. Like using a recycler vs manually clicking. Forcing high use of gas might seem a bit rapacious to your fans. Give an option for the poor folks. You know, the ones who keep complaining about the deathmobile. And yes, I know that the poor man's option is to loot for it. And yes, they're still going to complain. Just take the legs out from under the argument before it begins.

    4. Melee doesn't suck. Right now, without ammo cost, the only guys using guns are the ones who are too frail to go hand to gland. For me, at least. They tank like champs. I'm kicking myself for having too many recons and not enough fighters.

    5. Also, need m0ar zed. Seriously. maybe a hardcore mode toggle? L20 buildings aren't hard enough, and I just hit L19.

    6. Lastly, if you really want to make it a real fight for survival, have survivors die. Like, you never hear from them again and you lose whatever they had equipped. Up the ante, think about it.

    Keep up the fire.
    • view 3 more comments
    • 3-2 - it wouldn't of course be just fuel for crafting :). You'd need the materials obtained from ammo mods recycling. And I just threw up those numbers at random, not knowing what will the max cap be, and looking for prices that wouldn't be punitive to low level users. (I still view the ammo resource thing as a way to regulate the average use of firearms in missions, not anything more).

      Example: if you on average find 1 ammo mod per mission, and said ammo mod can be recycled into components equivalent to 20 bullets, what would be a reasonable price (fuel) for crafting 20 ammo resource from these components? Given that you can craft a machinegun for something like 20 fuel, and take it onto a single mission for something like 120 ammo, you can see that adding fuel crafting cost of 1 fuel to 100 ammo resource would be grossly prohibitive. That's why I went for the very low cost.

      We'll see what Con comes with.

      5. I saw it only in comments in a few places. So I decided to elaborate on it and created a topic for it
    • hmm so your the person i keep getting robbed by! (lol)
      Great ideas.... good point with the Machiavellian logic
      #4 is the only thing i dissagree, an lvl 22 enginer equipped with a ballenced thumping long arm is the best way to cut through Fence gates and sand bags.....
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  • Everyone wants that Dead Frontier type of game in the end..
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  • I disagree partly. I mean, meele is weak, but so does it in real life. A handy gun is way more powerful than a mighty battleaxe, I mean I can shoot 'bout 5-10 rounds into a target before it gets closer than 5 meters (little less than 6 yards). So waterin' down the ranged system does make it unrealistic, feels like my survivors equipped with popcorn guns. Meele was necessary on compound raids, however, since it could practically ruin any barricade pretty fast and crack open most defenses. Gotta agree, the Watchtower limited it pretty much, but hey, in real life, if you wanna get in a compound like that, you gotta shoot down the defenders, THEN you can start crackin' up the walls. So I think weakening the ranged system is pure bullshit, and just listening to the whiny noobs who can't carry on with the realism.

    However, limitin' the ammo is pretty cool, since now actually meele gets its uses in PvE, since on higher levels I shoot more bullets than hair my survivors got on a raid, so I think it should be something' high number, what could we store. Not too high, but I think some hundred wouldn't hurt anyone.
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  • Question if ammo gear items become "ammo mods" does that mean: 1) they will get their own gear slot and 2) they will impact the ammo cost (a logical assumption since using more powerful, albeit rarer, ammo should drive up the cost).

    So long as we also get separate slots for compound defense equipment this sounds fine to me. Otherwise it could be troublesome of having to micromanage the powerful gun combo you want for compound defense and the low ammo cost gun combo you want for missions/raids. Which will be no fun.
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  • look at how much fuel u have man ive only got like 15
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  • Can you implement the ammo drops now so we can stock up BEFORE we need the ammo or will we autostart with enough to run some missions?
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  • I’m concerned
    Like it! But, because of that; it seems extremely stupid to make the ammo UNLIMITED during a mission.
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  • Love the idea. The game was way too easy before that, thanks Con, for making this game as real as you can right now.

    To make melee cooler, I think that there should be stuff like double knock backs (or even more knock-backs depending on the weapon size and range) or something, so that a melee guy can be faster at killing and it could also be an excuse for some really cool animations like ridiculous Hollywood spin-attacks. I also think melee weapons should be able to disarm things, For example, a melee guy can do instant-kills like decapitations, (wicked animation right there) on zombies and depending on the weapon's size and the user's luck, you could do multiple in one swing. If you get two kills in one swing, the display will turn blood-speckled and you'll hear the words "d-d-d-double kill!"

    It may sound stupid, but melee is kind of under-powered, this would make it easier for melee to handle swarms and clear them up quicker too. Plus, it's an excuse for new voice and graphics. Just a suggestion though.
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  • hey anyone think a cross bow( or the long bow from union city) making an appearance as a low cost solution for ranged weapons ammo costs.
    *bow could be crafted with some wood and string, or scavenged from the random corpse containers
    * it would deal low damage, but perfectly silent, medium-medium-long ranged killing.
    *arrows would be very cheep i am thinking 10- 14 ammo cost
    recon could specialize with the bow.

    (iknow this should go in suggestions , but i cant seem to be able to post it there...)
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  • i like the idea because it makes the game more relistic but im a little confused on how your going about doing it. if ammo on misons is unlimeted and ammo is unlimeted when defending your compound then when is the ammo being limeted? and just a side reqest do you think you can do something about the rasio of food to water we find when going on missons? i always find more food then water and even thow i know its a game i hate wasting all that food.
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  • I dont like this idea, I was suspended because i was against it. Now a month later im wondering where the Helen is it?

    there arent many preparations players can do beforehand. afterwards, players need to scramble resources to build up collectors, storage and so on.

    I still am wondering A, why zombies box people knocking them back instead of grabbing them, and B will players be able to earn more ammo than they spend per mission?

    With boxing zombies and hand axes, I dont think survivors could win any fights.

    Please just release it quickly. People need to quickly build up the storage structures afterwards. to sooner you release it, the sooner people can start.
    • afterwards, players need to scramble resources to build up collectors, storage and so on.


      Hmm, scramble resources? That's so hard of a job. It's been announced so long ago that only absolutely clueless people still do not have a sufficient supply of melee weapons, with which they'd very comfortably raid lower level warehouses... IF they ever needed to "scramble" for resources, which equals to "if they started playing only recently" because just about everyone who plays more than 3-4 weeks must be literally drowning in staple boxes, cloth, broken drawers etc. I can't be bothered to check my inventory, but I started playing early September and I probably have something like 15-20k of cloth and wood in recyclable junk and components (and probably 200k of metal :)

      why zombies box people knocking them back instead of grabbing them


      Because with up to 5 survivors on a mission, it would for gameplay reasons be not feasible to require you to press a key repeatedly to get rid of a strangler and shove him away the way we're used from TLS:UC.

      B will players be able to earn more ammo than they spend per mission?


      That will depend on how much they spend per mission. I bet that you won't on average loot 600 ammo per mission (which would cover the cost of 5 high-level M249s). But even now, level 20 battles can be easily won with 2 CR-553s (ammo cost total of 80), not to mention one melee and one shooter (or even one melee alone)

      So, I expect the balance to be such that it will be feasible to stock up, but far from feasible to go to every mission with squad full of powerful guns.
    • A problem that people tend to forget is that high tier weapons need more ammo, so higher level players with have a much greater consumption. That requires a much more intensive structure and resource buildup.

      the higher level you are=the most ammo you need right off the bat, as youd be spending days, maybe even weeks building up storage and a collector.
      -----------------------------------
      wise players like you and I are stocking up some melee weapons, but even then, there will be problems.

      For example, the locations with the most ammo, like security stations also have a high amount of zombies.

      farming low level small warehouses will get almost nothing. Youd spend more on ammo then you would ever gain.
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  • This reply was removed on 2012-10-17.
    see the change log
  • no me gusto la idea de la munición que se un recurso
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  • i do not like the idea of it because if there is no ammo youre telling us to use melee.PLS DO NOT CHANGE THE GAME!!!!!!!
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  • I honestly do NOT like the ammo idea, it's hard enough to keep up with 5 resources; food, water, wood, steel, cloth. Not to mention the other players being a jerk and marauding your compound.

    If you keep trying to make melee weapons great, why don't you try and imagine a zombie first, and then try to attack that imaginary zombie with a weapon, say Katana. Of course you'll go for the head, and of course you'll try and make a 1-hit kill. If you want people using melee, make the melee weapons about 1 - 2 hits to any zombie, it's bad enough the survivors are charging towards hoards of zombies.
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  • I want to restart my account in Dead Zone back to zero.
    E-mail: wuzzapzent@yahoo.com
    User Id: fb100002109437083

    Hope there will have any responds from the game.

    Sincerely requesting the game.
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  • I’m not sure about this
    don't be angry from me but a LOT OF players or some players might not like that because they might complain about the bullet as a resource
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  • I’m Thrilled
    I think its a Great idea specialy if you make it were there is crafting ammo.
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  • This may have already been addressed but I like the idea of unlimited ammo during a mission. As a game it's the only way to make it playable since we don't have an option of a back up weapon like a person would in REAL life. Until/unless the second slot is unlocked and includes a weapon slot having a finite amount of ammo per mission is an invitation to slaughter since we don't fight hand-to-hand without weapons. Getting in and back out is always an issue since we have a timer so adding another wrinkle would really make it hard. Ammo crafting works for me since by this time most of us have useless mods we've broken down and crafted into useful ammo versions. I feel that using the gear slot for an ammo mod should lower the ammo cost for the weapon. Maybe you work in a system to craft "generic" ammo - no special mods just costs existing shells and powder like building a mod would. Great way to get rid of all of the weak ammo mods the high levels have stashed
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  • also can we move to a new location.. I am tired of my warehouse.. maybe i can fortify a town house or a police station.. give us more choices..
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  • I find a balance of weapon types very effective ie., having 2 melee 1 heavy M.G., shotgun sub-machine gun or rifle per looting party. the melee is great at putting a wall between my more vulnerable characters. Knowing now that melee will be improved further will only make the game more varied and interesting. I love the improvments and progress being made. Great job! Now we just need more missions.
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  • Hells yeah the more realistic the better! I love the idea of making ammo finite.
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  • I’m Brian Tran
    Brings out more of the zombie-like world in realists' vision.
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