The Problems with Melee

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  • Updated 3 years ago
a.k.a - Operation: Melee Love



We know there's problems melee its current state. With all the talk that's come out of the ammunition as a resource thread, we thought it was time to take a closer look at how we're working to improve it.

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Problem: Survivors chasing unalerted AI Zombies
Solution: Zombies didn't sense survivors being very close to them without seeing them. So if a survivor was chasing behind, they'd never notice them. They do now.

Problem: Survivors don't react to teammates being attacked
Solution: This was a problem with our melee AI, survivors were more concerned about not straying too far from where you'd sent them. They'll now deal with threats to nearby teammates as needed.

Problem: I can't attack zombies without taking damage
Solution: We've buffed the minimum range for survivors to emulate their anticipation for attack. Bottom line, survivors will nearly always get the first hit in, depending on their weapon's attack speed of course.

We're also looking at hit reactions for the zombies too, other than knockbacks, that will break their attack animations briefly, letting you get more hits in.

Problem: Melee feels slow
Solution: That's because it is! We're looking at increasing the attack speeds of a lot of the melee weapons to make the combat feel snappier. We'll have to bring the damage down to compensate that change slightly.

Problem: The attack animations are repetitive
Solution: They sure are. For both humans and zombies, we're adding more
animation variety. We're also randomizing the animation speed to mix things up a bit as well visually.

Problem: Not all classes are good with melee
Solution: While not all the classes are designed to be good with every weapon type or even good at combat at all, we are looking to balance it out. At the moment, survivors don't level at all in Ranged Combat or Melee Combat if they're not specialists at it. This is going to change.

In addition to this, we're looking at making specific weapon classes good for certain survivor classes. Recons + Medics good with Blades - Scavengers good with blunts etc.

Problem: Not enough weapon variety
Solution: As mentioned in the other thread, there'll be a lot more higher level weapon drops.

Problem: Melee looks and sounds weak
Solution: We're enhancing the look and feel of the melee and the weapon combat as we speak.

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So did we miss anything?

What problems do you have with melee?
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Con, Official Rep

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Posted 3 years ago

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Wong Yew Weng

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Will the melee weapon's type (Blade or Blunt) finally be mentioned on the rollover, so we don't have to guess?

Aside from that, it seems everything's been covered.
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Con, Official Rep

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Good call, Wong. We're not doing that yet - will put it on the list.
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Just_RC

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hum good point...but well its not that hard to see if a weap is a blade or blunt o.0
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papasquid

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Just_RC - there are some gray areas, like the crowbar. Also, the decision by Bethesda for the Elder Scrolls series to group axes in the blunt category has logic behind it; they depend on brute force as much as on a sharp edge, making them a gray area, too. Food for thought.
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Capatina Nicusor

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Too few, too late.Needs solid improvements.Please think of adding zombie types like in the Fort Zombie game where you had jogging zombies(run very fast), football players(charge at you, tough), doctor zombie(put zombies back together), soldier zombies should be hard to kill with weapons like shotguns etc.So you guys need ammo types, aiming, zombie types and mini-games while waiting for survivors to return and a big clan manage thing with special buildings to conquer and defend, Pvp areas with same buildings etc.
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jbloe

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The above sounds great!

I'm not sure after all that it would be necessary to add anything. But one idea that I've seen about is to make it possible to hit multiple zombies with one swing. Or push a bunch back (maybe that's the "hit reactions" you mentioned?). I think this would help in those situations where a melee survivor is surrounded and keeps getting hit.

But it also seems like care needs to be taken not to over-buff melee. So ignore my suggestion at will.
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Con, Official Rep

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Ah yeah - we're already looking at that. Forgot to add it.

Certain weapons, particularly two handed weapons will have a sweeping attack on critical hits that deals damage in an arc in front of them.
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jbloe

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Sweet, thanks!
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HanzoRazor

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Will these weapons have some sort of inidcator?
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papasquid

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I'm picturing River Tam decapitating a half-dozen Reavers in one acrobatic movement. Hitting multiple targets is a LOT harder than it may seem. It would be handy to have in the middle of a mob, though.
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HanzoRazor

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Yeah, that would be just phenomenally overpowered. Pushing back a few zombies with a horizontally held weapon and slaughtering a room filled with people in an excellently choreographed manner are two totally different thing.
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Venessa Smith

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what about the accuracy? sometimes when i use melee weapons on zombies and barricades the guy misses more than he actually hits them. maybe its just my laptop i dunno. :/
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Sokotra

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I've got the same problem... Using a character good at melee AND specialized with a certain melee weapon, I still miss like 85% of the time. Something is buggy.
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Con, Official Rep

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Yeah, that's part of the issue with the weapons not showing the correct accuracy. In the current version of the game, weapon accuracy isn't shown specific to that survivor. It'll be a lot clearer when you can see that stuff with these changes.
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Venessa Smith

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woah, Con replied to me... o,o
is it my birthday?! :O nah, that was months ago. :P
well, thx for the info Con! :)
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MTL

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@con: but when i play on a desk top computer melee is more accurate than when playing on laptop.
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JV

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@MTL: maybe just a coincidence? :D I don't think were you play is gonna affect how your survivors hit zombies. haha. Can't wait for the accurate accuracy to come out. :)
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Andre Taques

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you should create SHIELDS which protection varies from red to green. and the shield should harm as well (with very slow attack obviously). depending on the size, it could protect 1 or 2. this could improve raiding compound. attacking a well defended watchtower is almost impossible. and now we just have 5 (against 10 defending).
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HanzoRazor

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the other way to do this I've seen in some games (so as to not have to mess with the available slots) is to create a sword+shield weapon, which is a sword and shield but equipped the same way one would equip a pickhammer. Since the mechanics are hidden they could affect the dodge factor which exists in melee.
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HanzoRazor

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Yeah, actually. I've had a melee stationed by an entrance area/spawn point and the zombies refused to come through, instead being trapped in an area outside the actual map and bumping into each other in nowhere. Most recently happened to me in the corner of the small office. My print screen key doesn't work but I'll try and take a screen shot through other means next time it occurs. It only occurs to me when my melee survivor is standing basically right at the entrance.

Also survivors wielding melee sometimes get confused and chase after a far away zombie while another one is right next to them. It could be a line of sight issue, although when the near-by zombie goes to attack them they're still only interested in the other zombie. Usually they will simply ignore zombies that aren't attacking them, but if they decide on a specific zombie they will pursue it even if being actively attacked.
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Con, Official Rep

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Cheers, Hanzo.

In the case of the spawn point, was your survivor standing right ON the spawn area or next to it?

The confused survivors - is it just after or before you've moved them that they do this?
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HanzoRazor

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The spawn point. It started as they were standing on the spawn area, or as close as they can get. It continued after moving them away but some zombies were able to come out.

Confused survivors seems to happen when they've been placed near a wall/corner/object which is why I was wondering if it was LoS related. They may not have been able to see the zombie, and the zombie was unable to see them, when they went charging off after the other zombie, but as they moved the zombie was able to see them and attack. The issue was complicated by the unalerted zombie issue in that they continued chasing after the unalerted zombie while being hit by the obviously alerted zombie. Presumably if they'd been able to kill the unalerted zombie they would have then been free to retaliate without me having to tell them to.
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Con, Official Rep

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Ok, thanks for those.

We're looking at the unalerted zombie issue at the moment. Thinking that maybe we just make melee survivors ignore the fact they haven't been alerted and just attack anyway. Not sure yet.
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HanzoRazor

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Would it be possible to show, or even modify their attack range at some point. I don't want my survivors charging all the way across a warehouse to attack a zombie they saw, I need them to stay in the area where I put them. On the other hand I don't want them ignoring a zombie 3 feet away because it hasn't attacked them yet. Even if there were a few preset choices for ai behavior it would be helpful.

Much of the reason why I use guns all the time is because the AI behavior isn't great, what's more I can't tell them what I'd like them to be doing. With guns it wasn't important. They have a ring around them, they shoot things in that ring. Snipers don't always attack to the limits of their range, but at the end when you have time you can manually make them shoot to the end of their range, it's more xp issue than mission completion anyway.

In melee I find I have to constantly manage the survivor, since I have little control over their behavior. It makes a large group too unwieldy given the 5 minute timeframe and the need to manually direct scavengers to containers. It works great when I'm sending one person out to a location, or two people even, but any more than that and it becomes a chore trying to herd them back to where you want them to be.
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Spectre

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I'll second the issue of having to micromanage survivors. It's one of a number of reasons I gave up on melee entirely.
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John Bon

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I've had different survivors(mostly fighters but have tried it with each)equipped with different melee weapons and when facing a zombie, the weapons rarely actually made contact with the zombies. Seemed like 1 out of every 4-7 swings actually hit. It took forever to kill them. Keeping in mind that zombies are basically just walking, rotting corpses, if I were to swing a bat, sword, mace, etc., at a zombie, i'm going to make contact 99.9% of the time...if not EVERY time. And, based on almost all zombie movies, games, books, etc., 1 good headshot with a melee weapon would quite possibly take its head off...or at the very least smash its brain and kill it. So how about melee strikes that land and something like 1 hit critical kills for melee weapons? Or critical decapitation kills. Something like that.
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David Sanchez

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I want to see zombie blood! also please explain this

If i have a long arm on my scavenger does the melee stat get used or the improvised stat get used?

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Vostro

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"Steve (Official Rep) 7 months ago

If the weapon is improvised, only the improvised skill is used (either improv-melee or improv-ranged), not a combination or the improv and regular skills."

https://getsatisfaction.com/deadzone/...
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David Sanchez

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now i'm mega confused!
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Steve, Official Rep

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That may have been true 7 months ago. Not anymore, however :)
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Grumpy Guayabo

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If you want to see blod, turn on 'Gore' on the settings :)
It might lag, though :p
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Vostro

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Steve - it would be nice to get updated information on this kind of stuff without having to ask? Otherwise should we just assume we need to re-ask ALL of the questions every six months to see if anything has changed?
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Jhun Merana

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long live physical brutality........
blood!!!!!!!!!!!
Flesh!!!!!!!!!!!
Bones!!!!!!!!!

More
blood!!!!!!!!!!!
Flesh!!!!!!!!!!!
Bones!!!!!!!!!
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Venessa Smith

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well that was strange. o.o
but yeah, i agree. :)
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Excol

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There is the probability that he is infected :P
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Doncuneo

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BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE, MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES!
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Don Heng

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LOL @ KHORNE FLAKES! LOL!!!!
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Keylan75

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Like it like it like it *jump*

I finished Union City 3 times and guns were only used by following survivors. Im a big fan of mixed Teams (that includes gender... still have 10 guys. shame on you Con :)

Did i understood it right? Medics and Scavengers now leveling combat skills a bit? I dont want them as killers, but HELL YEAH... that was necessary!

If I'll ever be be able to make regular missions, I'll surely enjoy the melee-changes!
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Con, Official Rep

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Yes Keylan - the other classes will have their melee and ranged skills increased substantially. The specialty classes will still be the best though.
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Keylan75

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Hehe... time to buy a "Melee Love"- supporter Flag :)
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HanzoRazor

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yeah, I only used guns with my character at the end of UC. They were for the companion. Shovels ruled the apocalyptic world till the battle axe became available.
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Angrypandowo

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I feel like all of this is going to lead to downgrading bloodlusters, all together a balanced brutal bloodluster costs I believe 29 fuel? That's a considerable amount on a weapon to have it become nearly worthless. I hope the bloodluster and longarm stay useful.

Also if this catches Con's attention I never got a set of keycards I attempted to purchase and the fuel was taken away, the game refreshed after I clicked buy and when it came back my fuel was gone and I got nothing angrypandaowoarmor
LOVE THIS GAME!
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LunaticFaker

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Hey Con if your gonna give other classes combat skills then you gotta buff the Leader otherwise he won't be that useful anymore. I think the leader should get stat increases on all his/her stats per level then the extra point is where the specialty will be at.

Otherwise the Leader is gonna feel weakest since everybody else can now fight and do their specialty but all the leader has is gimped stats.

You can choose how to do it but I think that the Leader should be buffed substantially or they'll feel useless.
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HanzoRazor

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My leaders pretty much my third scavenger who can fight and heal. He'll now just feel like my other scavengers, except he can heal people.
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Ainarl Uy

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Hey Con.. i dont know if this is of any help but i hope this will be a good suggestion..

the armors or vests or any item that the survivor may equip would it be possible if we're to "see" our equipped items on our survivor for example.. a vest can we see whatever vest we equipped on our survivor or the sunglasses the medkits? just like in other MMORPG's where the player can see their character with whatever thing they equip

I hope this is a good suggestion and I LOVE THE GAME! i hope you can reply if this is a good suggestion or not
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Gustave Whittaker

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Whenever the game lags (for me that is constant) melee refuses to work at all. Only dogs and melee with a range of more than one function.
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Steve, Official Rep

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We'll look into this.
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Jon Blade

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Have the same problem, am playing from a notepad so SERIOUS lag & melee works not at all, it IS the fault of the pad rather than you guys but still means a whole section of game is useless to me
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Doncuneo

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Hey con, what about a sort of shield and sword combination? perhaps the "Shield" will use the 3rd slot or just be combined in one shot together with the weapon, so melee survivors can have a more defensive role escpecially against large mobs as a shield can both protect and "shove" zombies back,

another suggestion would be just having a "Shield" weapon, both looted and crafted, for example instead of having a long polearm weapon with high damage low attack speed you have a low dmg moderate attack speed + small aoe "Shove" for survivors with shields,
shield can be crafted, A "scrap shield" for example is a shiled with welded and gluedtogether wood and metal parts, while a "poker shield", a wooden shield with nails on the front would do more damage than average shields.
survivors can also find things like "medieval shield" or "riot shield" or "antique shield"

It would be a great a fairly easy way to add variety and help out with us players who constantly get mobbed and unable to plug corridors. what do you think con?
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Demek

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I think the easiest way to buff melee is to interrupt reloading when taking damage. Also brings a lot of strategy into equation.
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Grumpy Guayabo

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I was thinking... zombies should stop scavenging as well.
Scav: "Scavenging!"
Med: "Wait! Z's behind you!"
Scav: "No worries, they'll gimme a lil' massage".
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Maresa Sumardi

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rofl
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JV

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LoL
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Con, Official Rep

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We're looking at both interrupting scavenging and reloading when hit. It's a pretty simple test for us - just playing with it to see how it affects the game at the moment, nothing definite yet.
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jbloe

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Should be possible to increment this too, right? Two hits and they stop what they're doing, maybe three...

Sure you thought of it. Just figured the right balance is in there somewhere and it'd be a shame if the idea got thrown out because it made the game 'to difficult'.
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emdauphu

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Well I have an engineer and a fighter with balanced brutal bloodlusters and good vests and I'm currently very happy with that. :)

Apart from not being always so smart, that's true, they are already very good in my opinion. I may be mistaking but I think their AI was a bit smarter in the past (I mean before 1.08 and before the one before 1.08). I remember noticing a change in their behavior.
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Ivan Rikhmayer

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What about implementing dual wield? :)
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Ivan Bergara

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you mean like a double headed dil... OH wait.. i think that can be added for the realism of the game xP
xD yep dual wielding would be nice!
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Ivan Rikhmayer

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i mean holding a knife in each hand
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Ivan Bergara

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well most of the problems i had with melee are already covered..

BUT!
how bout adding a special attack.
for instance something like the "Spin attack" made famous by the golden triangle wielding green man.
it be a great thing to add. maybe double clicking on a survivor can activate this special.
but it will have a refresh/cool down time.

it adds more realism to the game!~
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Chaosticket

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oh god, I was pointing how wrong melee is already before I found this thread. Now they want to inflame the problem.

are you just going to remove all downsides from melee combat now?

Con are you guys just being trolls? youre limiting guns, but youre making everyone into sword-masters.

since when has sword training been part of ANY engineer's training or experience? even soldiers are limited to knives and maybe bayonets.
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zombies are faster than people, they have unlimited stamina as they dont need to breath. In last stand, zombies run and swing faster than people with heavy weapons.

zombies should be alot smarter. like MMO games they should have an "aggro" the more noise you make and more zombies you fight, the more zombies on the map get alerted.

zombies can see you swinging weapons, and zombies make sounds when finding "food" which is people. you dont get to "ninja" zombies.

melee weapons should be slow as swinging heavy blades is very tiring, let alone the hacking necessary to kill something, especially zombies.

zombies should counterattack, disarm, and even break survivors melee weapons.
==================================
Youre trading Rambo for Conan? youre shameless!
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Maresa Sumardi

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In a zombie apocalypse, what else do you beside scavenging?

With the threat of zombie invasion and no internet, i'd say learning weapons would be very attractive.
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zombies are not faster than people. Please refer to Zombieland the movie. There is no proof zombies have unlimited stamina. Show me a scene where a zombie run after a human for longer than a mile. In last stand, ammo is limited.
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This thread is talking about melee. not aggro.

I mentioned noise in another thread. I vote yes for more pronounced noise application.

IF noise is applied in force. Gun users would be overrun very rapidly. Melee automaticall more desirable due to low noise.
====================

There are variations of zombie in the genre. Some only hear. Some can see as well. And yes, you get to "ninja" zombies in the last stand series

Melee is already slow.

zombies should NOT counterattack, disarm, and even break survivors melee weapons. They want to eat, not fight
==================================
I prefer arnold to stallone anyway
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Grumpy Guayabo

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+1 Maresa, good points
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HanzoRazor

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-zombies should counterattack, disarm, and even break survivors melee weapons.

Martial-arts zombies? Really?
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Maresa Sumardi

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every zombie's kungfu fightinggggggg
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Jordan Smith

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Well, there is the valid point that weapons might get stuck in the dead flesh, that even swords will break against bone or armor... So maybe if consecutive hits in a set amount of time lose attack speed or damage? Maybe include a "critical fail" that breaks/blunts/loses weapons or jams guns... These would indeed be more realistic but would probably involve a lot of code -> the very real risk of adding lag time to large melee actions
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Spectre

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Problem with survivor AI: Your survivor attacks one zombie with a melee weapon (let's say it's a katana) but manage to attract one or two others that swarm you. Your survivor finishes off the first zombie... then just stands there doing nothing, except getting gnawed on by the zombie or zombies and apparently admiring his katana.

Possibly related problem: Survivors wielding melee weapons sometimes can't connect at all, and that includes fighters. Despite a highly accurate melee weapon, I had a fighter swinging at a lower level zombie for a full minute without doing significant damage (level 14 or so fighter, level 1 zombie.) Eventually I sent over someone with a shotgun to make the zombie go away, but that wasn't the first time I've seen that and people on the 'radio' have complained about similar events.
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Spectre

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Nope. It's not the non-alert issue because the zombie *is* attacking the survivor. And the survivor wasn't chasing the zombie, the zombie rushed (well, staggered up to) the survivor who wasn't doing anything else and started attacking him.
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jbloe

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Yeah, there has got to be something funky going on. There are a number of folks complaining about missing, and another group that think the first group is nuts.

My lvl 21 engineer effectively never misses. Is it the weapon? Are you using bloodlusters of some kind Spectre? Sounds like its not survivor class or level that is at issue...
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Con, Official Rep

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It's hard to tell without the survivor skills being reflected onto the weapon information. Look at the base skills for the survivor using the weapon, if they're not specialised with them, it's likely they'll be missing A LOT. Their skills are half of that of the specialists at the moment.
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HanzoRazor

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Sometimes it looks like zombies interrupt my attacks, but I've never really had a consistent problem with my melee fighters fighting. They miss maybe 1 in 20, which isn't the 99% advertised, but they're pretty effective. What weapon? It almost looks like some of the zombies have a certain amount of knockback when I'm fighting and I've found that if my survivor attacks first they rarely miss.

Well, there's the medic who never hits, but I'm not surprised by that.
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Spectre

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Con: As I have said before, I gave up on melee several levels back because of this and other problems, but it's not related to 'not a specialist in this weapon'. It's level 14-15 fighters and engineers wielding melee weapons (which they are specialized in, as I recall) swinging merrily away and doing little to no damage (1-2 points) on a level 1 zombie. While the zombie gnaws on them.

If it were people like Recons and Medics missing, I can understand that, as Hanzo says. But it's the 'specialists' and they're just plain missing with their specialized weapons!

At the time I did not have a Bloodluster, but I was using the machete and later the fire axe - supposedly 99% accurate - and hitting maybe 1 out of 10 at best and doing little damage on the few times my survivor did connect.
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Seraph

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This might not be the place to confirm it, but do survivors with melee weapons equipped have some form on evasion over survivors with ranged weapons?
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Emma Knickman

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yes,
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BrutalMat Postnuke

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How do you get all these great ideas? This melee stuff seems to work, theorically.
Hope we'll try it soon! Blunt, blunt.
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Don Heng

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Main problem with equipping melee weapons for missions, is that that survivor become useless during base defense if not re-equipped with guns.
People either forget to change back to guns during infected attacks, or they get raided right after returning from missions, before the player could log in to change anything.

At this point in time, melee weapons are almost used exclusively for anti-barricades raid missions, which is a shame.
To nerf guns and boost melee weapons may not be the best way to balance it up though.

A more realistic and sensible way to make both guns and melee weapons usable, may be to have survivors equipped with both and auto-rotate between the 2 weapons depending on the distance of the threat and the ammo status of the gun.
It's silly to be trying to snipe at point blank with an M-24, or to be frantically reloading a light machine gun while being mauled by 3 zeds from behind.
Logically, most people would've dropped the gun and whipped out a melee weapon for close combat.

I understand this will totally changed the mechanics of the game and probably involve a bucket load of AI reprogramming so its just another idea to be considered.
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Don Heng

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Lets call a spade a spade. Placing a restriction on guns via ammo is a form of nerfing. The more powerful the gun, the more ammo it'll expend and it is inevitable that some guns will eventually be purely used for defense (because no ammo cost when at home) and others purely for missions. I do not think that is very realistic. How likely players will switch to melee is also debatable.

Note that I'm not against the ammo idea or against nerfing the guns in such a manner. In fact, I fully agree with this new level of realism that ammo will add to the game.

What I'm cautioning against, is how sometimes, in the process of trying to encourage the use of one aspect of a game that was under-utilized, we unknowingly overpower or over-nerf other aspects and creates technical exploits that players are quick to find out.

Rather than enjoying the game, players ended up doing math-crafting and min-maxing. Just look at Diablo 3 and how with every patch, meant to balance and promote use of all the skills in the game, ended up causing players to swing wildly between extreme builds and tactics to exploit the latest inbalance.
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Maresa Sumardi

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nerfing will depend on the ammo cost for each type of guns.

we'll have to see the update first
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Andre Taques

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That's simple. They have to make money with this game. So instead of leaving your team with melee, why woudn't you buy fuel, speed up missions and switch weapons? Problem solved... just buy for it.
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Steve, Official Rep

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We understand that 'boosting' melee weapons is not the answer, and this is not what will be happening. We're working at making the melee AI better, and making melee for satisfying for the player, thereby making it a desirable aspect of the game.

More melee weapons will be added, and melee combat will be fine-tuned to provide a better experience, but the weapons themselves will not be 'boosted' to make them 'better' than guns. Everything will be tested and balanced to get the best result (that's what you guys are helping us with, remember!).

"... is that that survivor become useless during base defense if not re-equipped with guns."

This issue will also be addressed :)
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Don Heng

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Nice Steve, I'll be looking forward to that.
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Robert Wall III

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I think this would make for a better melee experience. So my only concern would be sending a group out with melee weapons, having them come back while I am log off and being raided while they are still armed with melee weapons. It has been said in several place, and I say it again to give my support to the idea. Being able to have the survivors with two different gear load outs would give me the peace of mind this idea is making me lack.
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Sokotra

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Good point, here's a solution besides having the option of carrying both a ranged AND melee weapon which is also a good idea. --- The only time your guys should rush people is when you have a melee weapon and they have ranged weapons. You rush with melee and knock the snot out of them while they reload, etc.
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Moje JenomMoje

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Con, how about area attacks of sorts? I could imagine blade weapons being capable of sweep hits, especially longarm, so if the damage caused to a Zed exceeds his HP, could it be carried through to the next target in range?

This could lead to slow-speed high-damage weapons having their use.

I've never used rams so far, but if they are used as any other blunt (swinging in an arc, not really ramming), it could apply to them.

Also, on a general note, two things I miss from TLS:UC with firearms are:
1) continuous fire and missing bullets continuing on. It's a bit frustrating to see my fighter with M249, facing a queue of rushing zed in one direction, firing in short bursts and acquiring targets one by one (and in the end wasting so much time that they manage to surround him.

2) Bullers disappear when a target is missed. With a bunch of zed zeroing in on a sawn-off owner, a miss on the first target means absolutely no effect on others that were next to him. Shotguns are not treated like multi-projectile weapons, right? But even so it's a bit annoying and makes all shotguns except Trident grossly inferior to other weapons their level.

(Or does this work as intended? I must admit that I played with shotguns only shortly and my impression might be wrong)
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Felix Mufasa Hollenberg

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Con (Official Rep) 5 hours ago
Ah yeah - we're already looking at that. Forgot to add it.

Certain weapons, particularly two handed weapons will have a sweeping attack on critical hits that deals damage in an arc in front of them.

// agree with 1) and 2) :)

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