I’m frustrated

Delicious Library: A database for books that can't find books.

I'm stunned at Delicious Library's failure to find what shelf a book is on. What good is this program for a large library? Why would I spend hours listing all my books if this won't help me find them? Do I just want pretty pictures of the covers? If I create a shelf, then drag a book to the shelf, how come the program doesn't know the book is there? Why do I have to type in a location for the book? Isn't this a computer program? Come on, get with it.
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  • I’m frustrated
    This does seem pretty obvious... I just don't get what people are scanning their libraries in for if they don't use the information to later find the books. And why should this most crucial bit of information take multiple steps to track, where the rest of the program is so fast and intuitive?
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  • To Raja:

    Please read my reply to romeodawg here:

    http://getsatisfaction.com/deliciousm...

    So, why did I spend days listing all my books (and other stuff)?
    1) Pretty pictures. Really, that's one of the main things that sets DL2 apart from the others. If you just want lists of data, Bruji's stuff can do that. (Although everything is segregated.)

    2) To know what I have so I don't buy anymore duplicate items!

    3) To compare the relative "values" of things as determined by random people on Amazon. (It's kind of fun, but I know it's not particularly meaningful.)

    Other people also do it so they have a list of stuff for insurance reasons, say if their house is hit by a meteor and they need to say what they've lost.

    You say you should be able to drag an item to a Shelf and bang, that's the location. But what if you drag an item to multiple Shelves? Say I have a DL2 Shelf for "Horror" and another for "Books about IRS Agents." If I want to put a book on both DL2 shelves, what should the program do for location?
    • You ask what the program should do if you put the book on two shelves? It should tell you it's listed on two shelves! Simple. How come the program can't do that by itself; it's a computer program, isn't it?
      You're using the word "shelf" differently than I'm suggesting using it. I mean an actual physical shelf, e.g. top shelf of living room bookcase, while you mean "category" or "tag", which would be nice also. Delicious Library demonstrates the difference between beautiful eye candy, which it certainly is, and beautifully useful graphical user interface, which the programmers need a little help with.
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  • I’m frustrated
    I agree with Raja -- tags and categories are helpful if for example you want to tag all your cookbooks with COOKING so you can see them as a group. And if it looks cool to see them visually on a bookshelf, great. But if you drag an item to multiple shelves, all the shelves should be listed on the item -- it's just another field in the database.

    The quickest solution would just be to add a field that shows which shelf or shelves the item belongs to.

    I think the best solution is to have 3 options for adding shelves - a virtual shelf, a smart shelf, or a physical shelf. That seems like it would cover all the ways people are using the program.
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  • 3 shelf types would probably be the cleanest solution (although some people still have problems figuring out shelf/playlist/album vs smart shelf/playlist/album), but until that's implemented...the extra five seconds it takes to manually associate the location to the item will have to do.
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  • Raja- The books-in-shelves thing works the same exact way iTunes playlists work right now; that is the type of functionality we were going for-- it's not as much for being able to locate books as it is to categorize them.
    I'm interested to hear how adding this feature could help people locate books-- if you've already located the book in the library itself, why would you want to locate it in another location as well? I am not trying to argue any point, but am curious to know how it would be useful to people. We are always open to suggestions about how our software could become more useful. It is indeed a "computer program", but these things don't write themselves, you know!
    • Jessie,
      Your comparison to iTunes is just what I wanted to hear. Why? Because there are some very important differences that you are completely ignoring. I don't want to "categorize" my iTunes songs. I want to listen to them. iTunes lets me "find" them, all kinds of ways, and then, most important, it lets me play them. You ask the perfect question: "if you've already located the book in the library itself, why would you want to locate it in another location as well?" The answer should be obvious to anyone who actually has a library: after "locating" the virtual book in Delicious Library, I want to "read" the actual book! To do that I have to "locate it in another location". That location is called the "real world". What good is it to me if I can locate the virtual book, but can't find the real book? Your note reveals the deep problem with Delicious Library. iTunes is concerned with functionality, Delicious Library is concerned with pretty pictures. iTunes is concerned with real music and real satisfaction. Delicious Library is concerned with a virtual world of books with covers, but not with any words inside. Do you get it? Those of us who actually have a lot of books were very happy when Delicious Library came out. Finally, we'd be able to keep track of our very large, dust-covered, chaotic collections of actual books. We could remember what actual shelf they were on so we could take them down and read them. Alas, this wasn't what you guys had in mind.
    • It's interesting to hear Jessie say that DL is more for categorizing books than locating them. I honestly cannot figure out who these people are that want their book collections categorized virtually... I just don't see the point. Have you done surveys and actually found that this is what users want? It's baffling to me. Physically locating the books seems to be such an obvious need. And again, the location field is there, albeit pretty hidden. It's good to know that I can select multiple items and assign a location in one step. DEFINITELY NOT IDEAL, but do-able. But DL is so intuitive and cool when it comes to getting the books into the program and sorting them, it's just frustrating that this most basic location issue isn't more elegantly incorporated. I do appreciate that you're taking the time to discuss the issue here - these comments ARE being read and I hope the next update will reflect feedback from active users. I'd also like to know what percentage of users actually use the lending feature - that seems to get so much screen real estate but it's nothing I'd ever use.
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  • Raja- There is a "location" category in the details for each item; isn't this what you're talking about?
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  • I’m still frustrated
    1
    Jessie, yes there is a "location" field, but you have to enter it by hand. If I have 50 books on the top shelf of my downstairs office bookcase, I have to type that in for each book, instead of dragging them to a "shelf" called "top shelf, etc." so the location is entered automatically. Here's the thing. You are making an analogy between iTunes playlists and Delicious shelves. The problem is that if you know the name of a song in iTunes you can find the song and play it. If you know that it's in a playlist, you can't find which playlist it's in, but who cares--you can still play it. With a physical book, it's different. You really need to know which shelf it's on in order to read it. It makes no sense that you can drag all the books to a shelf, but then you can't find which shelf you dragged them to. The only alternative is to type in the location field for each book. That is a very inelegant, very uncomputer-like method. But that's what you get from following the iTunes metaphor. The thing is that in iTunes, if you get info for a song, you can see where the actual file is in your hard disk and you didn't have to enter the information. Are you getting this?
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  • "If I have 50 books on the top shelf of my downstairs office bookcase, I have to type that in for each book..."

    "The only alternative is to type in the location field for each book."

    No.

    As I said...
    http://getsatisfaction.com/deliciousm...
    To get the workflow you want, this is what you can do:

    1 Make a Shelf
    2 Scan set of items (they will add themselves to that Shelf)
    3 Select all items on Shelf and fill in the location field

    That'll only add about...say, 5 seconds tops per [Shelf].

    While yes, it would be nice to have a way to associate DL2 Shelf with the location field automatically, as it stands, it's not as time-consuming as you make it out to be.

    Jessie: what they're asking for is the ability to make a DL2 Shelf and have that Shelf tied to the Location field. Probably the clearest way to implement that in-programme is to create a third Shelf type, say "Physical Shelf" or something like that.

    Right now, DL2 is modeled on iTunes/iPhoto with its Shelf/Smart Shelf dichotomy. However, while iTunes and iPhoto catalogue AND point to files on the computer, DL2 catalogues physical items. If this hypothetical third shelf type (or something) were created, then DL2 could also "point to" the items automatically.
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  • Raja,

    I think what I hear you saying is that you'd like a way to specify a book (or movie or whatever) and have the program tell you what shelve(s) it's on. This is a good idea, I just haven't done it yet.

    As others have said, there are a lot of other uses for Delicious Library besides find what shelf a book is on. I designed it around the idea that most people only have, say, one or two different sets of shelves for books, and their books are mostly in some order, so you'd use Delicious Library to help you initially sort your books, but after that you'd know where they were because _you_ set up the system.

    Eg, I have a very large sci-fi collection. Delicious Library tells me how to sort the books by my criteria (author then publish date), but if I'm looking for a particular Larry Niven book I just go to my sci-fi shelves and look under "N". I don't boot up Delicious Library for that.

    None-the-less, your feature suggestion is a good one. Thank you.

    -Wil
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  • 1
    I think that Raja's on the money - a great program except if you have a large physical collection of books its cumbersome to record physical location - in my case on multiple shelves, various storage boxes and some off site storage. To say that users books are mostly in order does not take into account the various sizes of manuscripts (e.g. different shelf sizes, their importance (i.e. stored on or off site) and (I'll admit it) the painful process of reordering a large collection. I appreciate that such a feature might require considerable resources but it would be appreciated by this new user. Cheers,

    Cheers

    MW
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  • I just started using DL and am in the middle of getting all of my stuff into the database. Are items time stamped when they are added? If items could be sorted by time added, then physical location grouping might be easy if you scan all of the items from one location at one time. If one physical shelf were scanned/entered at one time, then those items should be contiguous in the sorted-by-time stamp list, could be easily selected, and then the location field set for all items. Physical location tracking might be handy for some applications but it potentially is very high maintenance. Do all of your items stay in one place all of the time? Changes in ownership probably occur a lot less frequently...
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  • I’m worried that DM just don't get it.
    I agree with Raja and romeodawg. I understand Fred Duck's helpful point that it is possible to edit the location field fairly quickly. But it seems to me that DM have been kind of missing the point (OK, one of the points) of software like DL, which is not e-book cataloging software but software for cataloging physical objects. Physical shelves desperately need to (at least have the potential to) take center stage in software like this.

    As the number of shelves grows, we also need a way to collapse and expand them to avoid endless scrolling. iTunes, iPhoto, Bookpedia.... pretty much any software offers folders where you can keep multiple related playlists/albums/shelves together, and I find it surprising that DL still doesn't have anything similar.
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  • I agree entirely with this thread, I have a lot of books and a number of locations. If I'm in the UK I may want to check whether I have already got a book in Italy, or in storage, or in the office. I'd also heartily support rickdude in looking for collapsing or nesting shelves.
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  • CHAMP
    I’m kidding, at least in part...
    I think Raja needs GPS tracking.

    Bulk editing of the location field doesn't seem to be what he wants. It sounds like he wants to create a virtual shelf for each shelf of each bookcase in each room in his residence and place his virtual books onto each shelf (either by drag&drop or by direct entry). Then he wants DL to auto-fill the location field using the name he has given to his virtual shelf. What happens when you take the real book off the real shelf? Does he have a virtual "reading now" shelf? Is he going to log every time he moves the book? If you forget to change the log your system is shot.

    I would think grouping by room would be enough, or perhaps by bookcase if more detail is required. Any tighter classification would be counterproductive because of the database maintenance required in DL for every physical move of the books.

    Log the book's location in the Location field and use Smart Selves to sort.
    (... and don't forget to update DL if you pick up your book)
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  • I’m content
    I wouldn't find this useful necessarily, because I'm constantly adding new books to my physical (and virtual) shelves, so they are constantly changing shelves as I adjust for new books. I do physically alphabetize my books and keep them organized by very general genres (history, politics, philosophy, religion, reference, poetry, fiction, psychology, etc.) So all I need to do is make a virtual shelf for each of these general physical groupings of genres I have. When I want to find a book, I use delicious library to help me find the correct author so I can simply go to that section and find it in its alphabetical order. Although I have thousands of books, I don't need DL to tell me exactly where a book is. I just need to look up information about a book I may have forgotten (eg. author). I also use it for borrowing, for citations (in conjunction with Bookends), for reviewing, and for sharing my library with friends and different communities I am in (in conjunction with unLibrary.com). It obviously wouldn't hurt to have such a simple feature added, but it seems unnecessary for most users.
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  • I'm glad to see that Wil gets the idea of "places" (where an object can be in only one place at a time) as opposed to Apple's "album" metaphor.

    Ideally, I would like what Cory Doctorow describes in Makers, quoted below. For the meantime, I have Delicious Library and dumb boxes. The ability to change the "location" of an object by dragging, rather than actually writing in its "location" field, would be a great help.

    Excerpt from Makers by Cory Doctorow:


    Tjan opened the door with a flourish and she stepped in and stopped short. When she'd left, the place had been a reflection of their jumbled lives: gizmos, dishes, parts, tools and clothes strewn everywhere in a kind of joyful, eye-watering hyper-mess, like an enormous kitchen junk-drawer.
    Now the place was *spotless* -- and what's more, it was *minimalist*. The floor was not only clean, it was visible. Lining the walls were translucent white plastic tubs stacked to the ceiling.
    "You like it?"
    "It's amazing," she said. "Like Ikea meets *Barbarella*. What happened here?"
    Tjan did a little two-step. "It was Lester's idea. Have a look in the boxes."
    She pulled a couple of the tubs out. They were jam-packed with books, tools, cruft and crud -- all the crap that had previously cluttered the shelves and the floor and the sofa and the coffee table.
    "Watch this," he said. He unvelcroed a wireless keyboard from the side of the TV and began to type: T-H-E C-O. . . The field autocompleted itself: THE COUNT OF MONTE CRISTO, and brought up a picture of a beaten-up paperback along with links to web-stores, reviews, and the full text. Tjan gestured with his chin and she saw that the front of one of the tubs was pulsing with a soft blue glow. Tjan went and pulled open the tub and fished for a second before producing the book.
    "Try it," he said, handing her the keyboard. She began to type experimentally: U-N and up came UNDERWEAR (14). "No way," she said.
    "Way," Tjan said, and hit return, bringing up a thumbnail gallery of fourteen pairs of underwear. He tabbed over each, picked out a pair of Simpsons boxers, and hit return. A different tub started glowing.
    "Lester finally found a socially beneficial use for RFIDs. We're going to get rich!"
    "I don't think I understand," she said.
    "Come on," he said. "Let's get to the junkyard. Lester explains this really well."
    He did, too, losing all of the shyness she remembered, his eyes glowing, his sausage-thick fingers dancing.
    "Have you ever alphabetized your hard drive? I mean, have you ever spent any time concerning yourself with where on your hard drive your files are stored, which sectors contain which files? Computers abstract away the tedious, physical properties of files and leave us with handles that we use to persistently refer to them, regardless of which part of the hard drive currently holds those particular bits. So I thought, with RFIDs, you could do this with the real world, just tag everything and have your furniture keep track of where it is.
    "One of the big barriers to roommate harmony is the correct disposition of stuff. When you leave your book on the sofa, I have to move it before I can sit down and watch TV. Then you come after me and ask me where I put your book. Then we have a fight. There's stuff that you don't know where it goes, and stuff that you don't know where it's been put, and stuff that has nowhere to put it. But with tags and a smart chest of drawers, you can just put your stuff wherever there's room and ask the physical space to keep track of what's where from moment to moment.
    "There's still the problem of getting everything tagged and described, but that's a service business opportunity, and where you've got other shared identifiers like ISBNs you could use a cameraphone to snap the bar-codes and look them up against public databases. The whole thing could be coordinated around 'spring cleaning' events where you go through your stuff and photograph it, tag it, describe it -- good for your insurance and for forensics if you get robbed, too."
    He stopped and beamed, folding his fingers over his belly. "So, that's it, basically."
    Perry slapped him on the shoulder and Tjan drummed his forefingers like a heavy-metal drummer on the side of the workbench they were gathered around.
    They were all waiting for her. "Well, it's very cool," she said, at last. "But, the whole white-plastic-tub thing. It makes your apartment look like an Ikea showroom. Kind of inhumanly minimalist. We're Americans, we like celebrating our stuff."
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  • Sounds surprisingly like the bar fridge in some hotel rooms. They track when you take a snack out and then charge it to your bill.
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  • I'd also suggest that the word "shelves" be reserved for actual physical locations of books (and other items), and "collections" or something similar be used for other kinds of, well, collections of items.
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  • "Location" is for physical location. "Shelves", in particular "Smart Shelves" are for classifying items by whatever criteria you wish to use. If you want to make a Shelf / Smart Shelf for each Location description in your Library that is your choice to make.

    Personally I use Smart Shelves to keep track of other things, such as my Wish List (by putting "want" in Owner instead of my name), of books I have purchased but not yet read, and anything else I wish to do at any point in time. The flexibility of DL2 is one of the features I love about the program, along with the ability to "tweak" the information into a format that best meets my needs.
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