Freywa is posting solutions to players puzzle can you remove his post?

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Freywa is posting solutions to players puzzle can you remove his post?
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Joshua Weitzman

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Posted 8 years ago

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Jeehyung Lee, Alum

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Hi Joshua

If I'm right, Freywa is only publishing solutions to his/her own hard player puzzles for those who get frustrated from solving it. Since hard player puzzles are sometimes almost impossible to solve, we would like to leave opportunity for authors to publish the solution.

Of course, we will restrict players from publishing solutions to tutorials, challenges or other players' puzzles.

Thanks for your feedback!
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Freywa

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FAIL.
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Freywa

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Well actually I post the solutions because other players may find it so hard that they try and go on chat, only to find that no top players are there. The sequences are there as a last resort.
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Quasispecies

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Freywa - if people don't like it when you post solutions to your puzzles, maybe you could tell people in the puzzle description that they could PM you for a hint or solution?
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Joshua Weitzman

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Is a puzzle your taking the fun out of publishing them. i want to solve the puzzles not have you tell me the solution. mr Lee please remove Freywa post on my puzzles.
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drake178

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Forgive me but you have to be a genius to see the solution from a series of letters. If you're unable to resist the temptation to try his solution then that really has nothing to do with Freywa. I for one have no problem with anyone posting solutions to any of my puzzles that they can solve. It also saves me the time to have to bug them for it if i want to see it. I'm here out of curiousity. Please don't hold the information back, thanks :P
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Joshua Weitzman

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no you can copy and paste the sequince so you can see the solution. I takes me hours to create a hard puzzle.and i always made ezer puzzles that will help solve the final one, some time a discussion don't need a 3rd party
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drake178

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Being able to do something does not mean you have to do it. If you don't want to see his solution don't copy and paste it. Why does it hurt you that others can take a shortcut if they want to? Because you can't stop yourself from doing so? There's nothing wrong with Freywa. I still think you're wrong.
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drake178

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Oh by the way you got me so upset that i remembered something i wanted to do ever since Freywa posted a solution to one of my puzzles. Thank you! :)

PS: it was looking up Freywa's least solved puzzle and posting a nice looking solution of it. This is what i planned on doing instead of coming here about it, i'm just always too late in doing things. It's been rectified now :P
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starryjess

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I think some of you have misunderstood Joshua. I know what he is talking about because I have felt that way too. It took me forever to make the puzzle Campfire, just to see the solution posted and anyone can just look at it and solve the puzzle. I like to see how many people can solve my puzzles, not how many can copy a solution in. Now I will never know how many people really solved it.

Freywa, I know you mean well. But it is probably better not to post solutions to other people's puzzles without their permission.
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drake178

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I don't think i misunderstood and i do apologize for being offensive. I just find it frustrating when other people share their frustration openly and expect people to share their opinion based on empathy. I just happen to feel differently, when i create a puzzle the number of people that solved it interests me much less than the number of solutions other than mine. Given the option i'd prefer to be able to view everyone's solution to every puzzle should i choose to (independent of whether those people want me to see it or not). I also think that Josh isn't the first one who's solution Freywa posted yet not one of us/you has stepped up before, but now we should? I just get mad when people ignore something someone's doing and then blame him for doing it when someone else makes a fuss out of it. Sorry again.
It's just a frustrating situation, i'd have just PM'd him if it really bugged me that much, and i think he'd have gone out of his way to get his post removed himself.
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starryjess

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Drake, maybe you think this shouldn't be discussed because of the tactless way Joshua brought it up. But it needs to be discussed because it's not the first time it's come up. And once a solution is posted it can't be removed. Check out this comment page:



Boganis says it a lot better than I can.
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starryjess

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hmm, I'm having a problem getting the link up. Just search for a puzzle called Wilhelm Tell's other son and read the comments.
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Joshua Weitzman

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Not tactless lol blunt and dyslexic
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drake178

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I found it, thanks, it is foreknowledge i did not possess, although it does not change my opinion, and were i here at the time i would have reacted the same way. The difference is that boganis took a "straight" route so the expression of my feelings would have been different.

Boganis did phrase it quite good though, "the real reward for me, is to have solved a puzzle that few others have the solution to". That does not stand true for me, i want to have all the solutions instead and want everyone to get the same too. The same pride that makes me want to keep my solution to myself also makes me not look at any hint or solution unless i think finding the solution myself would take unreasonably long.

I have no problem with discussing it as long as it's not being dismissed as the minority report. I also want to make sure this is about the practice and not about the person. Lets say i took a picture of all my solutions and put them up on gamefaqs or some other similar game walkthrough site. Where would you complain about that? Doing it here would just bring more attention to it and have the opposite effect than intended. You probably wouldn't complain, or maybe to your friends in chat but that's it.

mat747 in that same post said what i probably would have. People don't like knowledge being shared, its perfectly natural, sharing information in this society is evolutionary disadvantageous to the individual... This is what copyright is all about, more stupid a thing man has never devised.

Anyway, the topic of this discussion should then be: "Could solutions to player puzzles be available to everyone?". Obviously the method of posting it right under the puzzles is not the right one, the copyright owners find it intrusive. Is it even worth considering making all this knowledge publicly available? Probably not, it's just solutions to puzzles, and the emotional loss of the people involved far outweighs the gain of the few that would want to use this information for the betterment of themselves. It is not meant for that, it is meant to cheat. Obviously.

Sorry for the rant, i think i see your point of view. I also think mine will not ever be seen by humans. I'll stick around anyway, so in the meantime, is there really no way to remove posts? This has to be answered by someone next to the machine running the game. I bet this has happened before to challenges and got removed. If there is a way to do it what then? Find all such comments and remove them? Or just remove the ones posted from now on? Or provide a means to report them so someone can manually do it? The best is probably the last, but there might be other options i didn't think of. Also, who decides what should be removed? The puzzle creator? Or only solution sequences can get removed? Do they always have to be?

This is always the problem with the public: we're all different, if we want to live together we have to make sets of rules otherwise we think we're less than the others. Or do we?
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starryjess

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I'm sorry if my post was not worded well, and I'm sorry to Freywa if he feels picked on. I certainly didn't mean to pick on anybody. It was really more about the idea.

As for mat's comment about sharing knowledge, I don't think this is the kind of knowledge that does anyone good if you share it directly. The reason is, these are puzzles, in other words, it's a matter of learning a set of logical rules and applying them. It is different from something like a scientific paper, which I think should be open and shared. To me, the puzzles are more about the logic behind it, not the end solution. If you get the solution, it should be an indication that you got the logic. Posting the solution undermines that. I don't personally see it as having anything to do with copyrighting. It's more like, the puzzle is similar to a math problem. The logic is more important than the answer itself.

I realize this all might just be my own personal take on what I get out of the puzzles, but I thought I should share it. It wouldn't make any sense to me to make all the solutions publicly available. Although, as you point out, there's nothing i could do about it if someone wanted to. I am curious to know what you would get out of knowing all the solutions, since I don't really understand what you are saying about that.

It is true there is no way to remove posts yourself (neither the puzzle maker nor the comment poster can do it). I don't know what would happen if someone asked for it to be removed (or, what WILL happen, since it's been done). I wasn't going to go that far, just hoping that people wouldn't post solutions on my puzzles in the future.
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drake178

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I'd feel picked on that's one of the things i tried to express yes, sorry it came out the way it did :P

But not just that. For me having access to the solution does quite often help to understand the logic of a problem. If i'm really looking for that. I'm trying real hard to think of a situation where it would be detrimental, but all i can think of is kids in school trying to get out of learning stuff. Forgive me if i can't relate to that quite well, i learn stuff out of my own motivation simply because i want to understand better who i am and what this "reality" is all about.

I would never even think of looking at a solution much less waste precious minutes of my finite time on earth to copy+paste it into the puzzle maker and then one by one copy it from another window. All just to get 100 points and fool myself. But i know you wouldn't do it either. Although... I log out when Brourd is giving hints. Let's leave this topic at that, allright? :P

Science is based on observation of results exactly the same way. You see what folds into the target shape, you understand why it does, and not the other way around. Half the time you understand something it either happens by accident or because you piece together information seen elsewhere. The other half is methodical trying. Right now we're trying to solve how RNA folds based on checking the results of existing sequences. How can you not understand that seeing the puzzle results can similarly teach you how they work?

The only obvious con would of course be that whoever is trying to learn will only learn how the computer model works and not the real thing, and even that only if assuming the two are really that different.

But of course this is just a game, challenging others is important, i agree, and that is where posting sequences is detrimental. It hurts the competitive game. It wouldn't hurt a cooperative one. That's my opinion, and if this topic did not come up i would probably have started inquiring about this eventually. So i apologize yet again, this time for taking over the topic. :P
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Joshua Weitzman

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wow a lot of words please don'r post the solutions for puzzle. you need puzzle maker.
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drake178

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Here's few words then: please post your solutions to my puzzles. That's why i make them. Or send them to me if you don't want to post. Thank you. But i tried writing that in the description of some. Oh wait, only Brourd ever solved those...

...and even he did not read the description, or did not bother sending it until i bugged him about it.

Anyway, here's how i would do it:
Award each player puzzle 100 base points (current).
Make all solutions viewable by forfeiting points for that puzzle (logged in)
Award current puzzle value to the puzzle maker for every person forfeiting to look.
Increase puzzle value by 100 points for every person forfeiting to look.
Puzzle maker can look at all solutions, so can anyone else after they have forfeited or solved the puzzle.

Although this isn't perfect either, at least it would also represent me, not just YOU YOU and YOU.
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drake178

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But to give you a working example too, most of my puzzles so far are pumped-up versions of challenges. I posted them because i found a solution to a part of them that i thought was unique and would not work any other way, and i wanted to test this by posting it as a puzzle. If someone can solve it differently then my knowledge is lacking and i need to process the mechanics behind the alternate solution.
And i don't care one bit about the worthless fools that copy and paste a solution because they can't find their satisfaction elsewhere in life. I also have my doubts about people that care more about them than me.
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Joshua Weitzman

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I don't care. wasting your time explaning your point of view. cill pill time Freywa post were removed from my puzzle thank you Jeehyung Lee
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drake178

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You think too much of yourself. I'm not explaining it to you but to all the others reading that actually care and want to understand.
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Brourd

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lol, yep, reading the descriptions has never been a stregnth. Now, on to the discussion. First off, I don't particularly care if player's post solutions on my puzzles. Now, if they do, that just makes me angry, and when I get angry, I tend to go down my list of potential puzzles to post, and I choose one that isn't likely to be solved without explicit instructions on how to do so.

Now, the main problem I have, is that my puzzles are so difficult, players are more likely after hour number 10 to choose the easy path, by looking at a puzzle solution. This means, that if I wanted to see many alternate solutions, I get stuck with one solution. Of course, for the puzzles that have only one solution, Drake is the only one to solve them so far...

btw, I am meaning to send you your solutions drake, but I usually get side tracked by something, or my connection goes down, or I get side treacked by my connection going down. It can get complicated. For the challenge puzzles, I already know what you want to see, and I can usually say with good confidence that many have "unique sections" where a GC pair is required or some nucleotide in a bulge is needed, but solutions can become varied with pair placements. Now, if you want to see GU's, I have given up on placing as many as possible, because it really doesn't do me any good for any aspect of the game, as the last thing that was useful for were the GU challenges, which are no longer around.

Now, I do agree with Drake that all players who have solved a puzzle should have access to other solutions, or at least the bot solutions, or at least the creator's solutions, however, if players have to "forfeit" points to look at a solution, then what is the point for them to even try a puzzle in the first place, as I am just going to get a bunch of forfeit points, and 0 new solutions, that helps me in no way.

Finally, I do agree with Starry that players posting solutions is not a good thing for a few reasons.

1. It deters players from building complex puzzles, which can take long amounts of time to build, perfect, and publish. Who does this hurt, ME. What am I supposed to do without complex puzzles to solve. In fact, I am currently having to go through my old puzzles, looking for solutions that players are not likely to give me because they will never try.

2. It is bad sportsmanship to post the solution for everyone to see, because this is a game, and making the solution available for everyone makes this no longer a game. What's the point of making a puzzle worth 100 points if anyone can solve it.

3, How am I ever supposed to reach rank number 1 if players can just solve my puzzles whenever they want ;)

These are just my thoughts on the subject. To agree or disagree, is your choice :)
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drake178

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Thanks B, you read as much as i chat :P

Anyway, if you read my suggestion above it implies you'd be the number one player already. And there would not even be any going near you. The incentive to forfeit is to understand so you don't have to do it more than once for any problem, and you might be able to solve puzzles that a lot of other people chose to forfeit and are hence worth quite a lot of points. As a player, you forfeit specific puzzles to learn their tricks. As a puzzle maker, you try to make puzzles people have to forfeit because they can't figure it out. Do you really think there would be no solutions and everyone would leave? If you do, is it really worth having all those people if they don't do nothing in the first place?

You know, the reason i sometimes hate talking to you is because it feels like you have an insight into the game that i don't, that you can somehow memorize any and all sequence energies for any structure under 20 nts. Well, i can't. To be able to solve the puzzles i need to learn the rules, and to do that i need examples. Some of these are hard to come by and even harder to iterate. And i would gladly give 5k points to you to not have to iterate through every combination of a 5-5 loop to find the one that will form the 4-in-a-row zigzag. I'd give you those points because you found it not me. I could have, but i wanted to save the time and nothing was to be gained from the excercise, i'm not likely to remember the entire sequence but i'm very likely to remember where i found it.

But all in all i do agree with you that solutions should not be there for everyone to see. The difference between you and me is that given the two options i still find it much much more preferable and fair than any kind of restriction of expression. People lose interest in hard puzzles anyway, regardless of whether there's an easy way out or not. If there is, they might actually be interested enough after 10 hours to learn from it. You're denying this chance based on the assumption that it cannot exist. I'm trying to prove to you that it can.

I didn't come here to debate whether it's the right thing to do to post solutions in the comments, it is not. I came here to find a way to be able to see all the solutions to at least my own puzzles, but preferably any that i find more interesting to look at than to solve. There won't be many. But there would be at least one by now. This way, i just browsed through Eli's guides for the right zigzag solution. The thing everyone so eagerly promotes as it was any different than providing the solutions. Is it harder to read? Or harder to find? For whom?

Oh and as for the GUs Brourd don't worry about that unless it's something special. Like 29 out of 30 pairs. Do you really not see anything in that? I wish i could have done 30. :-P
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Joshua Weitzman

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man dont have time to read these your wasting a lot of time on a problem that as solved 8 days a go. please go make your own post on satisfaction so i dont get spammed by your justification. for sucking the fun out of the pozzle
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drake178

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Maybe you should have considered that when you went to a public forum to complain.
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boganis

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It is bad form to post solutions to other players puzzles.
No matter why.

I suggest that Eterna introduce a list similar to the list of players completing the puzzle in the GU-challenges in the olden days. That way people that have completed the puzzles can be identified. If someone is desperate for a puzzle solution, they can contact some of the solvers and beg for whole or parts of a solution.

Why would I want to get a complete solution?
I wouldn't.
That would be to claim I am a better puzzle solver than I really am, if I were to just follow a recipe, and as starryjess and joshua point to, it makes it impossible to determine the actual number of players solving a given puzzle.

It would be like learning the right moves for solving Rubik's cube without understanding the reasoning behind the moves :)
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drake178

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It's bad form to irnore what people say and just focus on what you want to say. No matter why.
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drake178

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You're all stuck in your loops because i dared to stand up for something you all don't like simply because i see something in it that you don't. Discussion over.
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Joshua Weitzman

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who cares your taking this too serious. I hope you find someone to talk to get out all your misplaced anger. its a game,
not the answers to life or revolution. your not standing up for something your stepping on other people's fun. If someone post the solutions of your puzzle and you don't like it just post a thread on saturation or ask an Etrna employee and they will happily remove it,
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drake178

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I'm sorry Josh, i did indeed want to upset you for writing here and ruining my fun. You should have sent an e-mail or a message or at least make a post without names. I have full confidence in that anyone who cares enough to try to understand my opinion will not feel their time wasted. I'm just sad that's not you.
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Joshua Weitzman

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can you rite some more so i can under stand .
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Joshua Weitzman

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rite more
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Joshua Weitzman

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Researchers from the University of California at Riverside, US, say that they have developed a new "thermal interface material" (TIM) that could efficiently remove unwanted heat from electronic components such as computer chips or light-emitting diodes. The material is a composite of graphene and multilayer graphene.
Unwanted heat is a big problem in modern electronic systems that are based on conventional silicon circuits – and the problem is getting worse as devices become ever smaller and more sophisticated. TIMs are positioned between a heat source – such as a computer chip – and a heat sink, and they play a crucial role in cooling devices. Conventional TIMs are generally filled with thermally conducting metal particles and have thermal conductivities in the range 1–5 Wm–1 K–1 at room temperature. A high volume fraction (of more than 50%) of filler particles is usually needed to achieve such conductivities.
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Joshua Weitzman

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Oxford Nanopore says it will begin selling by the end of the year a disposable DNA sequencer about the size of a USB memory stick that can be plugged directly into a laptop or desktop computer and used to perform a single-molecule sensing experiment. The device is expected to sell for $900, according to the company.

The company also unveiled a larger benchtop version of the technology. It says a configuration of 20 of the benchtop instruments could completely sequence a human genome in 15 minutes.

The technology is based on a radically different sequencing method that has been in the work for more than a decade at Oxford University, Harvard and the University of California, Santa Cruz. DNA strands are pulled through nanopores embedded in a polymer. As the DNA passes through the nanopore, specific sequences are identified based on varying electronic signals from the different bases. As a result, the technology can read DNA sequences directly and continuously. The company says double-stranded DNA can be sensed directly from blood.

The announcement comes at a time when the cost and time of DNA sequencing is dropping dramatically. Earlier this year, Life Technologies showed off a benchtop sequencer that it says can decode a human genome in one day for less than $1,000. By making sequencing far cheaper and faster, the new generation of instruments could finally make personalized medicine a reality
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Joshua Weitzman

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on. The new technique could prove much cheaper: it uses particles of soot as a template for the structures, so they don't have to be carved using a process such as photolithography.

Methods: The researchers held a glass slide over a candle flame to coat it with soot made of nanoscale spheres that stack up, resulting in a texture that repels oil. They covered the soot with a layer of silica to keep it from washing away. Then they baked the slide at 600 °C, which rendered the soot transparent.

Next Steps: Applying soot is cheap, but the method the researchers used for applying the silica is relatively expensive. They're testing cheaper techniques.
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Joshua Weitzman

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r half of that growth came from increased combustion of coal, which has held steady as the source of about 40 percent of the world's electricity. Much of the new demand is coming from Asia.

In these charts, we show how the world's sources of electricity changed—and didn't change—in the previous decade. The message: solar and wind have a long way to go.
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Joshua Weitzman

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odelled on those of the ICTP and will begin with the centre holding international schools and workshops. Among the first events will be a workshop on gravity and string theory in May and a school on astrophysics and cosmology in July.
Initially, there will be five permanent researchers as well as a director, who is the Brazilian physicist Nathan Berkovits. The centre expects to support about a dozen postdocs positions per year as well as playing host to a number of international visitors and students. Hiring for the permanent and postdoc positions is still on going, with the theoretical physicist Fernando Quevedo, who is director of the ICTP in Trieste, saying that selection will "follow the highest international standards and we expect to select simply the best candidates, independent of their origin".
With a budget of about $1m per year, the institute also will have an active visitors' programme. "We very much hope that this will be only the beginning of a
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Joshua Weitzman

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John Glenn plans to mark the 50th anniversary of his historic spaceflight with a series of events Monday at Ohio State University, including a celebratory dinner and a chat with the International Space Station.
The astronaut and senator from Ohio became the first American to orbit the Earth on Feb. 20, 1962, circling it three times in five hours and helping to lead the nation into space. The trip helped the United States catch up to the Soviet Union's accomplishments, and Glenn said he thinks it was a turning point for the national psyche.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/02/20/...
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drake178

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Josh, you can click the 'Stop following this question' link in the e-mail so you don't get a notification every time i reply.. I'm sorry i assumed you knew that ><
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Matt Baumgartner [mpb21], Alum

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I'm closing this topic as it has become unproductive.

This conversation is no longer open for comments or replies.