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Fault/Flaw: Ordinances RESERVED (not PRINTED) & TEMPLE SHARED; then, RESERVED+PRINTED thru OrdinancesReady by another, recorded against BOTH

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"OrdinancesReady"

Fault/Flaw:

"Ordinances" that have been "Reserved" (But, NOT "Printed") and "Shared with Temple System" by a User/Patron; BUT, then (Nowadays), "Reserved" and "Printed" through the new "OrdinancesReady" feature/facility by another User/Patron, NOW "Display" as being "Reserved" and "Printed" by BOTH Users/Patrons, this is WRONG, this is a Fault/Flaw.

I had recently added a great deal of information and detail along with attaching some "Sources" onto an individual/person that already existed in "Family Tree"; but, whose "Temple" Work was not reserved.

With the additional details and information plus "Sources", the individual/person was almost as complete as possible, as such, for the "Temple" Work, I "Reserved" (But, NOT "Printed") and "Shared with the Temple System" ALL "Ordinances".

Our youngest Child is going on their FIRST "Temple" Experience in a Youth "Temple" Visit this Friday.

As such; and, as a "Test", we utilised "OrdinancesReady" through our Child's own account to obtain some "Baptisms".

"OrdinancesReady" pulled the "Baptism" (and, as is the case, "Confirmation") of aforementioned individual/person from MY "Temple" List, no problems/issues there.

But ...

What is a problem/issue is that now the "Ordinances" are NOW (Currently) "Displayed" as being "Reserved" and "Printed" by BOTH Users/Patrons, this is WRONG, this is a Fault/Flaw; especially, as I DID NOT "Print" any "Card", that needs addressing/fixing.

Me





Daughter





I am fully aware that the "Ordinances" are (what you might say) "Temporarily" taken from ME [ my "Reservation" List ] (and, the "Temple System") by my DAUGHTER [ and added to her "Reservation" List ] for a period of 90 Days.

But ...

As you you can see; that, SHOULD NOT then "Display" the SAME "Reservation" for BOTH of us, during the 90 Day period.

My "Reservation" should indicate TEMPORARILY "Reserved" on 'Date' for 90 Days by 'User/Patron' (in this case my Daughter).

This is WRONG, this is a Fault/Flaw; especially, as I DID NOT "Print" any "Card", that needs addressing/fixing.

Submitted for your immediate attention and action.

Brett
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  • I going to see what kind of response you get, Brett, before adding this to the Ordinances Ready issues listing in the compilation of unresolved issues. Maybe it is something that can be resolved within a week or so (we are approaching the weekend).
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  • 3
    What you describe is how the system is supposed to work. It is not a flaw.

    When you share with the temple and the status shows as "Shared Printed" that means that either the temple or now the ordinance ready tool have that ordinance as printed. It has never indicated that you printed it. You cannot do anything with it on your end until those ordinances are completed. It shows up still in your list because you shared it with the temple. In this particular instance you are unable to un-share the baptism/confirmation as they have been printed. You could un-share the other ordinances if you wanted, but you cannot even print them yourself until the B/C are completed.

    And your daughter has it on her list as pulled from the shared temple file via ordinance ready and has it printed. She has 90 days to get the work done. When the work is completed, the brown color on your list will go away and you can control the rest of the ordinances if you'd like.

    This is how it is supposed to work.
    • I'm curious as to what happens if the Ordinance Ready printed reservation expires before it is completed, does the original icon go back to being red?
    • Christina

      I cannot answer your question, directly; as, the "OdinancesReady" Feature has only relatively recently been implemented; and, I do not think that 90 Days (3 Months) has elapsed/passed yet, to see the result; but, I believe and would suggest that the answer to your question is 'Yes'.

      Just as, the "Reservation" would revert back to the (original) Member User/Patron who "Reserved" the "Ordinance"; and, "Shared with the Temple System".

      Just my thoughts.

      Brett
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  • 3
    I agree with Amy that this makes perfect sense. You overlooked one important item: the icon color on your screen. It is brown. This means the temple printed the card and you cannot retrieve the reservation, that is, unshare it with the temple like you can when the icon is still red.

    From your standpoint, it doesn't matter whether the printing actually took place in the temple itself or in someone else's home to be promptly taken to the temple.

    From your daughter's standpoint, she needs to know she has printed the card in her possession and when the card expires. Therefore she gets the dark green icon which means she printed it and the printing and expiration date.

    If the system was claiming you had printed the card, you would see a dark green icon, also.
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  • I guess I agree with Amy and Gordon. It does appear to function in a reasonable fashion. When one of your reserved and shared with temple ordinances is taken out of your control by either the temple printing it or someone else getting it trough the ordinances ready, the brown icon comes up on YOUR account. The only thing is that the shared PRINTED status now has an expanded meaning when considering ordinances ready. One way or the other, it just means that you can't do anything with your reservation AT THAT TIME.

    You still have the original reservation and things will fall back to you if nothing is done by your daughter and it times out. Her "Reservation" is a temporary one.
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  • 2
    Amy; &., Gordon

    'Thank You' for joining in on this post of mine.

    You are, both, certainly more experienced and more expert than I am; but, on this matter, for once, I cannot agree with you.

    Granted "OrdinancesReady" is working / functioning as it should be (ie. correct workflow).

    That is to say that:

    - I "Reserved" (But, NOT "Printed") and "Shared with the Temple System" ALL "Ordinances".

    - My Daughter utilised "OrdinancesReady" and was granted / given the "Ordinance(s)" of "Baptism" (and, as is the case, "Confirmation".

    - No problems / issues there.

    My problem / issue is NOT that "OrdinancesReady" in not working / functioning as it should be.

    As my Daughter has now taken responsibility (ie. custody) of the "Ordinance(s)" of "Baptism" (and, as is the case, "Confirmation"); then, that process has put a "Temporary" HOLD on, BOTH, My and the "Temples" responsibility (ie. custody) of the "Ordinance(s)" of "Baptism" (and, as is the case, "Confirmation"), for a period of 90 Days.

    Whether or not, the reference of my "Temple" List indicates that the "Ordinance(s)" of "Baptism" (and, as is the case, "Confirmation") were just "Printed" and it does not matter by whom, that is NOT the issue / problem - that is just really a non issue.

    As an aside, I have never done it before; but, what if I "Reserved" and "Printed" ALL the "Ordinances"; and, them "Shared with the Temple System"! Is that possible? If it is; then, that in itself is another problem / issue; as, I would have a "Printed" Card; and, the "Temple" would also go ahead and "Print" a Card. A big potential for "Duplication" of "Temple" Work. I know such has been discussed in this Forum previously as a concern; but, I had never followed such posts through.

    Now ...

    Back to the matter at hand ...

    My problem/issue IS that when "OrdinancesReady" is utilised to TEMPORARILY take the "Ordinance(s)" of "Baptism" (and, as is the case, "Confirmation") from, BOTH, Me and the "Temple", for a period of 90 Days; then, MY "Reservations" List SHOULD indicate that the responsibility (ie. custody) of the "Ordinance(s)" of "Baptism" (and, as is the case, "Confirmation") HAVE, in fact, been TEMPORARILY taken from, BOTH, Me and the "Temple"; and, also indicate by 'whom' and 'when' and 'for how long' (ie. Expires); Oh, and, also that the "Card" has been "Printed" by the 'whom'; NOT, just, that the Card has been "Printed" without an indication of who "Printed" the "Card".

    I may be being pedantic, as I usually am; but, the premise of my post still stands.

    - My "Reservations" List should NOT indicate that I am NOW still have responsibility (ie. custody) of the "Ordinance(s)" of "Baptism" (and, as is the case, "Confirmation"); and,
    - The "Same" Holds true for the "Temple".
    - My "Reservations" List SHOULD indicate that my Daughter now has temporary responsibility (ie. custody) of the "Ordinance(s)" of "Baptism" (and, as is the case, "Confirmation"). Of course, also, when she took on that responsibility (ie. custody); and, when that temporary responsibility (ie. custody) expires; and, that she has "Printed" the "Card".

    I know that, now, under the current circumstances, I cannot "Print" a "Card"; and / or, be responsible for the "Ordinance(s)" of "Baptism" (and, as is the case, "Confirmation") - that goes without saying.

    As an aside, my Daughter cannot do the "Ordinance(s)" of "Confirmation"; so, that, in itself is technically ANOTHER "Fault" / "Flaw" with "OrdinancesReady" (But, I did not want to raise the problem / issue here), she should have ONLY been able to, "Reserve"; and, "Print", the "Ordinance(s)" of "Baptism"; NOT, that of "Confirmation".

    Please do not get me started with the various "Faults" / "Flaws" with "OrdinancesReady" - A "Great" Tool; but, as usual, it was not quite really "READY".

    Do you understand where I am coming from now - NOT that "OrdinancesReady" in not working / functioning as it should be; but, rather that there is (in this case, one) a problem/issue with the Result of the way the Action is NOW indicated in My "Temple" List.

    And, please, I am well aware of the "Colours" of the "Icons", that is by-the-by, it is not the "Icons", it is the ACTUAL "Text" in My "Temple" List, that is the problem/issue.

    I am sorry, for my ramblings; but, there IS a "Fault" / "Flaw" as I have indicated in my post that needs addressing / fixing, ASAP.

    Brett
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    • You have the option to unshare with the temple because the other ordinances haven't been printed yet. You should try it to see what happens.

      So, this is what will happen, you will unshare with the temple and you can choose to unshare everything for that person or just specific ordinances.

      Then on your list you will see that the B/C are brown and still show as shared/printed.

      You will still SEE them on your list because you started the process that got them in the shared/printed status they are now in, however because they are now in that status, you cannot control them anymore. And you cannot unshare them from your view because they are locked in a shared/printed status by the temple department.

      The other ordinances will show as blue in a waiting status. You can then turn right around and share them back with the temple again and those that are blue will turn red again.

      You can unshare them all now if you want or when the B/C is done you can unshare them at that point - as long as they are not brown (shared/printed) you can do anything you want with them.

      However, when you unshare them from the shared family file (temple), they lose their place in line. And when you reshare them later, they go to the bottom of the list.

      The Ordinances Ready feature allows that "waiting in line" to change because it allows someone related to pull that name out of line and do the work immediately.
    • Amy

      I am well aware of all that.

      'No', I do not want to try it; as, I do not want them to lose their place in line, at least, not at the moment.

      But, regardless, I no longer have "Control" of the "Reservations" for "Ordinances" of "Baptism" and "Confirmation" [ and, 'for all intents and purposes', neither does the "Temple" (although, technically they hold/wield overall control/power) ], my Daughter (another User) now has "Control" of the "Reservations" for the "Ordinances" of "Baptism" and "Confirmation". That is part of the problem / issue that I am referencing; as, the aforementioned is NOT reflected in my "Reservations" List; hence, the "Fault" / "Flaw".

      Brett
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  • It's fine to disagree.

    - My "Reservations" List should NOT indicate that I am NOW still have responsibility (ie. custody) of the "Ordinance(s)" of "Baptism" (and, as is the case, "Confirmation"); and,
    - The "Same" Holds true for the "Temple".


    Your reservation list does not indicate that you now still have responsibility for the ordinances of baptism and confirmation. It indicates that the temple currently has full responsibility for the baptism and confirmation, as indicated by the brown icon, and those two are now totally out of your control. Since those ordinances have an expiration date seen by your daughter, which the temple can change at any time, the temple still does have the responsibility for getting the ordinance done.

    As an aside, my Daughter cannot do the "Ordinance(s)" of "Confirmation"; so, that, in itself is technically ANOTHER "Fault" / "Flaw" with "OrdinancesReady" (But, I did not want to raise the problem / issue here), she should have ONLY been able to, "Reserve"; and, "Print", the "Ordinance(s)" of "Baptism"; NOT, that of "Confirmation".


    Actually, your daughter has to complete the ordinance of confirmation and she has to do it the same day as the baptism. That is temple policy when patrons bring a card they have printed out at home. Both alway print together and are always completed together at the same baptistry session.
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  • If you were to have printed the cards 1st and then shared with the temple, these are scenarios that can happen:

    * You take the printed card to the temple and complete the ordinances and the ordinances show competed in the temple database and reflect in FamilySearch. This would then remove them from being shared with the temple

    * You have the printed cards on hand and also shared with the temple and the temple prints or temple shares to another patron the ordinance. Whomever gets the ordinance done 1st it is recorded. The other will also get done and when it is scanned in the temple recorders office will show that it was duplicated. If you are first, when the recorder's office scans your card, they will see in their system that the ordinance has also been shared with the temple system and they can see if it is in a printed status. Either way, the ordinance will get duplicated if you have a printed card and the temple system has a printed status.

    The assumption that is made when you share names with the shared family file (what we keep calling 'sharing with the temple' or the 'temple file') is that you are not planning on doing those ordinances yourself immediately; and as such any printed cards you have on hand should be destroyed by you.

    When the temple prints an ordinance from the shared family file the ordinance is locked on the temple reservation list of the person who shared the ordinance until the ordinance is completed. The color changes from red to brown.

    The text in your temple list that says "Shared Printed" with the brown colored icon indicates that the ordinance that you shared to the shared family file has now been printed. It does not indicate that you printed it. It means that the ordinance you shared has now been printed by another person/process.

    I have some ordinances that are locked in this manner and have been for over 3 months. I have been told to have patience and let the temple that printed them get them completed. I do not know which temple it is. I had assumed it was my local temple, but have been informed that it is not. It will not be provided to me "which" temple has them printed. I just need to wait until they are completed.

    As part of Ordinances Ready, the tool has the ability to pull from the shared family file. When this happens, the ordinance is printed by another patron and the color on your list turns brown. It does this because the temple department is the manager of the shared family file and the ordinance becomes locked until the new patron either completes the ordinance or 90 days expire or the new patron releases the ordinance. In the case of an expiration or a release, the ordinance then goes back to it's place in line in the shared family file. If the ordinance is completed by the new patron, then it immediately unlocks on your reservation list and shows completed.

    As the patron who shared the ordinances to the shared family file, you will not know which temple has printed them, nor which patron has printed them. You will just know they are printed and they are locked until which ever process is complete ... they get completed or the time of expiration happens.

    Your temple list is functioning correctly. Because the shared family file is managed by the temple department, when the ordinance is in a printed status, the color on your list will be brown and the ordinance will be locked to you. You just happen to know in this case that your daughter has the ordinance. The majority of patrons will never know which person or which temple has their ordinance.

    The Baptism/Confirmation ordinances currently pull together because they are generally completed together. If your daughter isn't able to complete the confirmation, you can have another patron complete the ordinances. OR, when your daughter returns from the temple, she can release the confirmation and it will show back up on your temple list as red ... until either you unshare from the temple, share with another person, print it yourself or another temple or Ordinances Ready user pull that ordinance.
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    • Ah! Good to know. So the Shared and Printed icon ALWAYS means that it's been printed.
    • Jeff ... Tom is right.
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  • All

    'Yeh' ...

    'Oops' ...

    In my defence ...

    We have an 18 Year old Dog, who requires 24/7 "Attention"; not, so much "Care", but attention; and, due to the heat "Down Under" of late, he is sleeping during the day; and, wide awake at night. I have 'drawn the short straw' - the night-shift. Due to his age, he gets anxious, if he cannot see one of us all the time; and, would keep the family and neighbours awake all night. I have not been getting much sleep. I had been getting the "Cards" ready for our Daughter; and, noticed the "Cross-Hatching" on her (account) "Cards" from "OrdinancesReady"; and, in a quick 'half-hearted' discussion with my Wife, she inferred that the Youth were only doing "Baptisms", not "Confirmations" (which I questioned, as I thought strange); but, I bowed to pressure; and, then, due to getting up and down to the dog all night, I 'went off on that tangent' about "Conformations".

    Sorry, my mistake.

    I retract what I said about "Confirmations".

    I should have known better.

    Now ...

    ( I have 'freshened up'! )

    Forget the matters of, the "Printed" Cards; and, the "Colours" of the "Icons" - they are non issues, as far as I am concerned.

    The problem/issue remains that on My "Reservations" List that ALL the "Temple" Work for the individual/person IS still ONLY appearing as being "Reserved" by Me and "Shared with Temple System" - this is no longer the case, the situation has CHANGED with the actions of the new "OrdinancesReady" feature / functionality.

    Whereas, in fact, the "Ordinances" of "Baptism" and "Confirmation" have NOW been "Reserved" by my Daughter, which means they are temporarily no longer accessible to Me or the "Temple", for a period of 90 Days.

    Therefore, my "Reservations" Lists DOES NOT reflect the CHANGES actioned by the use of the new "OrdinancesReady" feature / functionality, in that, another User / Patron now has IMMEDIATE (all-be-it) temporary "Reservation"; and, the fact that, both, Me and the "Temple" are "Locked-Out" for a period of 90 Days.

    My Daughters "Reservations" List is fine - no problem / issue there.

    It is the "Reservation" List of the original "Reserver" that is NOT being reflected correctly; hence, a "Fault" / "Flaw".

    You CANNOT (at least, you should not) have in the "System", at the same time, "Ordinances" that are "Reserved" by two (x2) [ or more ] Users/Patrons, I am not talking about the "Temple" here. That is just wrong. I know that I am being pedantic, as always; but, we need to raise ALL discrepancies, no matter how insignificant.

    I am sorry, regardless, I still maintain that there IS a "Fault" / "Flaw", as I have indicated, I hope better this time, that needs addressing / fixing, ASAP.

    Brett
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    • Jeff

      I hear what you are saying.

      But, as I just responded above on one of 'Amy's' responses ...

      I no longer have "Control" of the "Reservations" for "Ordinances" of "Baptism" and "Confirmation" [ and, 'for all intents and purposes', neither does the "Temple" (although, technically they hold/wield overall control/power) ], my Daughter (another User) now has "Control" of the "Reservations" for the "Ordinances" of "Baptism" and "Confirmation". That is part of the problem / issue that I am referencing; as, the aforementioned is NOT reflected in my "Reservations" List; hence, the "Fault" / "Flaw".

      And, that is regardless that my Daughter's (another User's) "Reservation" is not a full fledged "Reservation"; and, is temporary and limited.

      It is the "Text" on my "Reservations" List; as, the original "Reserver", that is "Faulty" / "Flawed", in such cases through "OrdinancesReady"; and, what needs addressed/fixed.

      The actual process is working just fine; but, the "Notification" (ie. "Text") on the "Display" (ie. "Reservations" List) is NOT.

      Brett
    • Yea, there are many places that useful information is just plain missing. When you compare this one to the issue where all of the reasons for duplicates or other hints being dismissed have been eliminated from being displayed anywhere, well, just saying...
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  • Brett ...

    They are not necessarily reserved by two people at the same time. You have shared the reservation to the shared family file. You can see it in your list, but you cannot do anything with it when it has been printed by either the temple or another patron.

    Your daughter has the reservation on her list at this moment. You can see that it has been shared printed on your list ... but you cannot do anything with it, since you shared it with the shared family file and it has been printed.

    Brett, go ahead and try to un-share that reservation right now from off the shared family file. You will see that it will show up in your list with the B/C as listed as brown (shared/printed) since they are being managed by the temple department and the other ordinances will show up as blue (waiting). You will have to wait until the temple department releases the reservation for you to do anything with the other ordinances.

    When an ordinance from the shared family file is printed ... you no longer have any control over it. You can only SEE it.

    Amy
    • Amy

      I no longer have "Control" of the "Reservations" for "Ordinances" of "Baptism" and "Confirmation" [ and, 'for all intents and purposes', neither does the "Temple" (although, technically they hold/wield overall control/power) ], my Daughter (another User) now has "Control" of the "Reservations" for the "Ordinances" of "Baptism" and "Confirmation". That is part of the problem / issue that I am referencing; as, the aforementioned is NOT reflected in my "Reservations" List; hence, the "Fault" / "Flaw".

      It is the "Text" on my "Reservations" List; as, the original "Reserver", that is "Faulty" / "Flawed", in such cases through "OrdinancesReady"; and, what needs addressed/fixed.

      So, 'for all intents and purposes', that is what it appears as, at the moment, that, the "Ordinances" are "Reserved" by two (x2) [ or more ] Users/Patrons, at the same time, that being that I and my Daughter (could be anyone) have the "Reservation" in our respective "Reservations" Lists, at the same time!

      The actual process is working just fine; but, the "Notification" (ie. "Text") on the "Display" (ie. "Reservations" List) is NOT.

      Brett
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  • Tom ...

    Currently when you share a reserved name from your list to another user, the entire reservation transfers off your list and onto the list of the other person. You are no longer listed as the reserver ... the new person you shared it with is and they have complete control over the reservation.

    Currently you can only share a name with all ordinances.

    Future ... we have been told that we will be able to share specific ordinances with another.

    Not sure if the future also will allow us to share like Ordinances Ready with a 90 expire or if it will remain as it is currently where the reservation transfers to another person.

    Maybe it should be called "transfer" to another person ... not share. Since the ordinance leaves your list and your name and belongs to that person now.

    Amy
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    • Hm. I just thought of a way to test this with my wife, since I have her credentials. I can transfer a person for whom I have reserved ordinances to her and then check the record with her credentials. I'll have to let her know what I'm doing before I do it, though.
    • I transfer ordinances to others all the time. It leaves my reservation list and I am no longer the owner of the reservation.

      If I'm doing a lot of sharing and if they are relatives I want to track the status of the work, I print a copy of my reservation list first. Then I transfer to others and write on the list who I transferred. Or I make a spreadsheet of the name, PID, ordinance, the person who I transferred to and their email address. Every few months I check to see if anything has happened with the reservation.

      In November/December 2018 after having done some transfer sharing to others a few months before, I was checking the status of the PIDs and noticed that the other person had unreserved some of the ordinances and I was able to re-reserve them until I can find out if they had done it accidentally and didn't know what to do to get them back or if they just decided they weren't going to be able to complete the work.
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  • However, I see no flaw or anything inherently wrong with the way things are working now with Ordinances Ready. I know that when the 90 days expires (or when the person unreserved the ordinances) they have received through Ordinances Ready, that the ordinances revert to their original state, regardless of what it was.

    I suspect that since I "unreserved" the ordinances when I original tested what was happening, that I become to holder of the reservation when I used Ordinances Ready. But I will not know until I actually run the process to test it.
    • view 6 more comments
    • Jeff

      'Thank You'.

      Brett
    • Yeah, Brett. You are still "hung up" over what is happening.

      I feel that once the temple system prints ordinance card(s), FamilySearch no longer is in control of the ordinance(s) involved, but the temple system takes over and provides feedback to FamilySearch so that the icon changes from red to brown.

      What is different is that for the next 90 days or until ordinances are performed, there is a "new" user-owner for the ordinance(s) and that is displayed to the world in place of the user who was the user-owner at the time Ordinances Ready was run.

      But, just as has happened in the past, when a temple prints the ordinance card(s), the person who reserved the ordinance sees their name attached to the ordinance. Because they remain the user-owner, the rest of the world sees the same thing.

      This is not under the control of FamilySearch once the card(s) are printed. I have not tested this, but I believe that I can no longer unreserve the ordinance(s) once the temple prints the temple-shared ordinance.

      The current user-owner of the ordinance(s) has the option of backing out their selection (or the 90 days expires), but that is only because they used Ordinances Ready.
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  • I just want a complete understanding from viewing MY Temple Reservation List, what is happening. THAT it is happening, is wonderful! Or THAT is will be happening in the next 90 days is wonderful! THAT I still have that Ancestor in my account (my responsibility) is wonderful.

    But allow me to see in my account what is happening to My Ancestor. Publicly you all see it. Why not me? This is ridiculous! The Brown Box has now expanded in it's meaning. You have now created confusion for the original submitter... Who feels very responsible. Just because I have Shared with the Temple Dept. my Ancestor's ordinance(s), that does not take me off the hook. Too many Ordinances still get tied up incorrectly. One must be vigilant in checking their Temple Queue.

    I ask for a simple way to also see what is being seen Publicly. Then no worries...
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  • What has happened is that the brown icon represented a printed state for a temple-shared ordinance.

    Ordinances Ready is part of the temple system and as such, when a patron uses Ordinances Ready to "pull" a name, the moment they press "Take to the Temple", the temple system reserves the status of that ordinance within FamilySearch and shifts the icon to Brown from Red.

    This is because the temple system takes full control of that ordinance, regardless of who activated the "print" action. If I understand correctly, the ordinance(s) can no longer be "unreserved" by the person who reserved them (I did not test this) and so the temple can proceed with the ordinance without having to verify that nothing else happened with respect to the ordinance(s).

    Note: the temple has the option of "returning" (unreserve) the ordinance(s) to the temple-shared status, just like the patron who used Ordinances Ready, can "unreserve" the ordinance(s) and that ordinances then returns to the temple-shared (or original, if a temple-shared ordinance was not pulled) status.

    There is a lot of confusion on this matter, but my limited testing has shown that it is working as designed. When a patron uses Ordinances Ready, it appears to work the same way that when a temple prints the ordinance(s).

    What happens with the list is that everyone (except for the user who reserved and subsequently shared the ordinance(s) with the temple system) will see the new "owner-user) for that ordinance. That will last until the ordinance(s) is/are performed or the 90-day period expires. Then only the completed ordinance information will be displayed, just as it has done for a long time.
    • The bottom line is that the temple-system takes over the status once the ordinance(s) are printed and the ordinance(s) are no longer is controlled by FamilySearch.

      It doesn't matter if Ordinances Ready (a temple system routine that works with the temple database and interfaces with FamilySearch) is used or the temple prints the ordinance card(s).
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  • Tom

    What don't you understand ...

    This post of mine is NOT that "OrdinancesReady" is not working correctly!

    This post of mine is about what is happening when "OrdinancesReady" is used, the actual situation is NOT actually being "Displayed" in the "Text" on the "Temple" List of a Member User/Patron.

    Granted, the situation may be 'implied' by the "Changing" colour of the ( "Printed" ) "Icon"; but, seriously, that is NO substitute for the actual correct "Text" from being "Displayed". I look at the "Text", not so much the "Icon", which I tend to, eother, not see or disregard; and, it appears that others do the same.

    So ...

    'Yes', I am "... still "hung up" over what is ..." being "Displayed" in the "Text" on the "Temple" List of a Member User/Patron, Regardless of the colour of the ( "Printed" ) "Icon".

    And ...

    It would appear that I am not the only one.

    ==========

    FamilySearch

    Despite all the banter with the responses to this post of mine, please CORRECT the "Text" being "Displayed" in the "Text" on the "Temple" List of a Member User/Patron, to reflect the actual situation, rather than just relying upon the "Changing" colour of the ( "Printed" ) "Icon" - that ( "Printed" ) "Icon" is NOT sufficient.

    'Thank You' in advance.

    Brett
    • Brett, Ordinances Ready is a function of the Temple Department and is working as it was designed.

      The "print" function is a function of the temple system, not of FamilySearch.

      It just so happens that a person used the temple Ordinances Ready system to activate the "print" function.

      Could it work better?

      Perhaps, but then the ordinance would disappear from your view on your temple page. It would then appear to be "owned" by the person who used Ordinances Ready.

      If they failed to complete the ordinance within the 90-day window (or unreserved the ordinance from their account), then that ordinance would reappear on your Temple page and the "ownership" would revert back to the person who previously "owned" the temple-shared ordinance. The icon would shift back to its original state (red for temple-shared ordinances).

      Personally, I don't care who does ordinances that I have shared with the temple system or what method has been used to "print" the ordinances.
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  • Perhaps the software already tells us that an ordinance on our reserved list is printed via Ordinances Ready. See this image. There is a little temple icon in the far left (matches the Ordinances Ready icon at the top of the page). I looked this person up under my husband's login and the SS is now showing printed by another patron.



    Also on my reserved list - in the shared family file, I show 6 initiatories that have been printed. I know which temple has these ordinances printed as I've been working to get them unstuck since October 2018. Notice how there is NOT a temple icon on the left.



    Please test this with your reserved list where you know your child or family member has a name from your shared family file that they have now printed via Ordinances Ready. Do you also show a little temple icon for those ordinances?
    • I have been able to replicate this with names on my husband's list that are shared family file and have been printed via Ordinances Ready.
    • I cannot explain the second image you've provided, but I remember seeing the temple icon next to the name that had an ordinance printed and others still in their original shared state. That was before Ordinances Ready became available.

      Something is going on and it would help if someone from FamilySearch would break down what we are seeing in terms of icon color, temple icon, and so on.

      At the present time, the temple icon indicates that the ability to unreserve the name no longer exists for that brown icon ordinance.

      Something that just crossed my mind. If you click the boxes next to the names in your second illustration and then "unreserve" them, what happens?
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  • Tom,

    I unshared what I could unshare. Then I get this:



    So, it looks like the temple icon shows up for a single line ordinance - regardless of Ordinances Ready.

    Amy
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  • I suspect it may be to indicate that ordinance is in the Temple system and you cannot select it (i.e., no checkbox) to unreserve, print for yourself, unshare with the temple, share with someone else, etc. This is REGARDLESS of whether the Temple printed it or it was printed through Ordinance ready.

    Of course like many other new ideas in FS, this one would be flawed because as soon as you have any other red ordinances on that same line (as E and SP ordinances in Amy's initial Forwinkles example), you cannot have that temple icon there because it would prevent you from being able to change the state of the normal red Shared with temple ordinances. I.e., no checkbox.

    I suppose the reason it has not been documented ANYWHERE (the legend for that page doesn't even have it) might be because it does not consistently behave according to its "meaning"--whatever that may be.
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  • Amy

    I understand what you are saying in your response.

    I am quite aware of that "Temple" Icon on the right-hand-side of the page/screen that indicates that the "Temple System" has "Printed" the Card (for want of a better term, for "Temple" File work) for that "Ordinance".



    But ...

    There is NO "Temple" Icon on the right-hand-side of the page/screen for, either, myself or my youngest Child, only the 'Empty' "Check Boxes"; nothing, to indicate that "OrdinancesReady" has "Taken" the "Ordinances"; and, that, in fact, they have been "Printed" on a Card by my youngest Child.

    The "Colour" of the "Ordinance" Icons for, both, myself and my youngest Child are as per the Images in my original post.

    So, in essence, as I have already indicated, the "Colour" state of the "Ordinance" Icons on our respective "Temple" Lists, for the situation is 'sort of' correct.

    That is:

    For my youngest Child: 'Dark' Green = Printed, by my youngest Child.

    For me: Brown = Printed, by the "Temple System"
    But, by the "Temple System"; NOT, by a Member User/Patron - Temporarily or not.

    Regardless, it is the state of "Text" for me, that is just plain WRONG!

    The "Text" for me implies that the "Temple System" (with total control) has "Printed" the "Ordinances"; and, NOT, another Member User/Patron (Temporarily or not), through "OrdinancesReady".

    The "Text" for me should indicate (imply) that, although I retain the "Reservation", another Member User/Patron, through "OrdinancesReady", has been given the "Reservation" temporarily for 90 Days (or until "Completed") - this is the 'bone of contention' (or Fault/Flaw) and reason for my post.

    Oh, yeh; and, I DO NOT want to "Unreserve"!

    Brett
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  • This is what I think is happening with respect to the temple icon and the temple-printed ordinance.

    I currently have two ordinances that show up with the temple icon and the dark brown ordinance icon. I had previously shared those with the temple system.

    Under another account and before Ordinances Ready prints the card the record will show the name who reserved the ordinance (or who currently has the ordinance reserved.

    Status icon can be

    * red -- indicating temple-shared but not printed (by me or someone else)

    * yellow -- indicating reserved but not printed (by me or someone else)

    * green -- indicating not reserved (by anyone).

    After the Ordinances Ready prints the card, the record will show the name of the person who ran Ordinances Ready as having reserved the name.

    Status icon can now be:

    * dark green -- indicating that someone has printed the ordinance card. Everyone sees this except for the person who reserved the ordinance. The person who ran Ordinances Ready shows up as having reserved the name. The date that Ordinances Ready was run now shows as the reservation date with Expires 90 days later.

    * dark brown -- indicating that the temple system has printed the card, but only the user who reserved the ordinance, sees this icon. That person's name shows up as having reserved the name. with the original reservation date.

    Two people can see this ordinance on their Temple page:

    * The person who originally reserved the ordinance: icon dark brown, temple icon covers checkbox, original reservation date, no expires date (as of now).

    * The person who ran Ordinances Ready: dark green icon, date Ordinances Ready was run is the reservation date, there is a Expires date that is 90 days from the date Ordinances Ready was run. They are now listed as having reserved the name. Checkbox is open, allowing the person the check the name, reprint the ordinance card (or FOR), or unreserve the ordinance.

    Note: This applies to all names where the person who ran Ordinances Ready did not originally reserve the name. If they reserved the name and Ordinances Ready pulled the ordinance, upon checking the box, they can then share their own names or the temple. They cannot share names pulled from other users's temple shared lists.

    About the only thing that can be confusing is what Brett has complained about:

    * The person who originally reserved the ordinance sees their name and a brown (shared printed) icon and their original reservation date.

    * Everyone else sees the name of the person who ran the Ordinances Ready, a dark green icon, the reserved date which was the date Ordinances Ready was run, and an Expires date.

    Talk about some weird action on the part of the person who reserved the name.

    Is it a problem? Not necessarily a flaw or fault, but yes, it is confusing and therefore a problem.

    How should the system behave for the person who reserved the name and subsequently shared the person with the temple?

    I like the present system the way it is. I know the name was pulled with Ordinances Ready by someone else. If I want to know who did that, I won't find out who from my account. I'm not sure if this was intentional or not, but it certainly leaves one scratching their head.

    On a personal note, I don't care, as long as the ordinance is completed. For others, such as Brett, I think it matters, but I'm not sure what Brett would like to see from his account.

    Only Brett can answer that -- Does he want to see the person's name who ran Ordinances Ready? Does he want to see the same color icons everyone else sees?
    Or would he prefer that the Ordinance that was pulled drops off his temple list?

    Brett, what solution would you want to see? And please keep the answer short. I no longer have the patience to work through your long and heavily punctuated responses.
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  • 2
    Tom

    'A Picture is worth a thousand words'; well, in my case, 10 000 words ...

    My "Reservation" List



    My youngest Child's "Reservation" List ... (ie. could be any Member User/Patron).



    Not only do we BOTH see the exact same and "Correct" situation; but, we also have the opportunity to "Message" each other - 'Wow', another Relative; and a Member of the Church 'to boot', who I may have never been in contact with or met!

    And, I even really do not care if the "Colour" of the Icons stay the same - the "Text" says it all.

    I hope that this is succinct enough.

    Brett
    • view 3 more comments
    • Brett, your disappointment should bring about the recognition that sometimes your responses are extremely difficult to read. If you stop with all the punctuation and simply your point of view with the K*I*S*S approach, it will really help.

      Again, what do you want to see in the banner as far as wording is concerned. Provide that much, at least.
    • Remember, the ordinances page is under the control of the Temple Department, or so we have been told.
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  • 1
    I think (?) I like Brett's idea here.

    I just put my Shared List into "Modified". I use this as a tool often. It appears (in MY account) that the names in Brown Box status that have been printed by a Temple, move to the top of this modified by date list.

    Interestingly, the ones that have been printed in "Ordinance Ready" (still showing Brown Box status for me) stay buried in my list as to when I first Shared them by that date. So I understand what you all are saying. Promise! But I still find this lacking answers for me as the Patron Submitter. Maybe now "confusion" is too strong a word to use. How about Vague?

    So I have to go hunting for the Ord. Ready Printed names deep in my list. At least I can quickly now see a distinction, I guess (FYI - they ALL have the Black Temple Icon printed on the left hand side).

    Suggestion: Move all names in Brown Box Status up in the Shared Modified List. Haven't they now really been "modified"? Then with an indicator of their true status (NEW color box and/or date expired).

    Suggestion: I still call for a new color box to indicate "Ordinance Ready Printed". Public/Patron Submitted View. ALL to see. So much easier than all this.

    Order and Simplicity. Please.
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  • The columns in the Temple list are sortable and by different parameters. Click the down arrow next to any of the column heads to see what is available for that column. In addition, up to three of the columns can be used to sort the list. Hold down the control key while you use the mouse to select the next column.

    The "Date Modified" has to do with the record of the person and not anything to do with temple ordinances (reserved or otherwise). It is pretty much useless in my opinion, so I don't bother with it, but that last column is sortable and by the modified date. The only Date Expires has to do with the Ordinances Ready that a user implemented for an ordinance for the person.
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  • 1
    Tom I understand what you are saying. But as one who daily uses this tool, I can tell you that once something has been modified by an Ordinance change (ie Printed), the person will now rise to the top of the sorted Shared Modified list to most current status. I, of course, can reverse the list and see who in each Ordinance is the oldest.

    Thus I am having issues with Ordinance Ready Printed Status showing as a Brown Box. In the past, if a Brown Box sat more than a month or 2, this would send up a Reg Flad that there was a problem in the System (Temples generally will complete printed Ord in less than 28 days). I have caught dozens!

    Again I use this everyday. Fabulous tool to use if I am working on a family and want to see if an Ord is now printed. In my case, I am waiting to personally do the Sealings in our local Temple. I like to Seal families all together at the same time. So I watch for the End. on the children and of course the parents. I do these Sealing weekly as these families are ready.
    • Mary

      I just do not think that some participants in this Forum 'get it'.

      If the "Text" in our "Temple" Lists, for those "Ordinances" that were "Printed" through "OrdiancesReady", were as per those "Images" in my response (above), prior to your response, we would know without question as to what is happening.

      Brett

      ps: No need to even 'Sort' - we could see/tell at a glance.
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  • Brett - I agree with your last comment about seeing at a glance...but those of us with an exceptionally long Temple Reserve List ...well even more important why to make this visually simple to read. Easy to sort. DIdn't someone say follow the "KISS" rule?
    Please FS! Do that!

    As of this morning, my frustration came to a boil and decided, one more time, to call FS and give my feedback to a person. Not just this Blog. As of 2 hours ago all my dates in Shared Modified Ordinances that I so proudly spoke of yesterday were now 80 % changed into Reserved Dates even in the Modified queue. The Brown Shared Printed Boxes were showing dates from 2-3 years ago, tho' this action of "Printed" had just changed.

    I spent over 3 hours combing thru my Temple List of Brown Boxes to decipher my ancestors' true printed position...back and forth between my account and using my daughter's. And there was great inconsistency on what their status was. Some were at the very top of my list, Some were at the very bottom. Many scattered throughout. Some I am certain were printed by a Temple...but others, I cannot confirm. Even looking in both accounts. Very odd.

    I do not "own" these Ancestors. They belong to hundreds if not thousands of their Descendants. But I have "responsibility" for them as I am the one who started them on their "Temple journey". I care for them. Otherwise I would not have turned in their name. I feel I need to be the #1 person who should understand what is happening to them. Not treated like a second class citizen.

    The very kind, patient Elder told me that there has been an incredible amount of feedback and frustration. Patrons are frustrated and FS Missionaries are frustrated. That the Engineers are very aware and making changes. What those changes will be and how soon all this will get resolved, I pray quickly!

    I wanted all aware that action is being taken. I'm sure it won't be a perfect solution, but it will get better.
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  • Mary

    Whether, you; or, 'Tom'; or, whoever, likes it or not, those "Images" of mine that I have suggested for the "Text" for our "Temple" Lists IS the "KISS" principle.

    How else can you display the situation, certainly NOT by "Coloured" Icons - hardy any new/novice/inexperienced User/Patron even looks or takes note of those Icons; and, they certainly never look at the "Legend" for those Icons!?

    I am sorry, you; and, others, have a LONG "Temple" List.

    Do not get me wrong, I totally understand WHY!

    I never really "Shared with the Temple System" before; but, I have started as of late; and, my List is climbing very rapidly.

    We ALL care about the "Temple" Work for ALL of our Ancestors/Relatives; and, in some cases, Friends, Associates and beyond - that goes without question.

    Despite that, I can think of NO other way to display/record the "Text" of the EXACT "Situation" with "Ordinances" that have been "Shared" (for want of a better term) through "OrdinancesReady"; and, ARE, in fact, "Ordinance" Work that is TECHNICALLY "Reserved" and maintained/managed by two (x2) separate and distinct Member Users/Patrons - a unique situation really.

    And, to placate and appease the 'naysayers' for this post of mine, I agree that "OrdiancesReady" is working as programmed/coded, the "Flaw"/"Fault" is, as I have always maintained, simply with the "Text" in the RESULTANT Display in our "Temple" Lists.

    I hope this clarifies my post.

    Brett

    ps:

    If anyone has ANY better and viable suggestion/solution, I am open to other options!

    But, PLEASE provide 'mock-up' "Images" to make those suggestions/solutions clear.
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  • FamilySearch

    Any thoughts or comments or 'sit rep' on this post from any "official 'FamilySearch' Representatives.

    Brett
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  • Brett

    Not sure why you grouped me with the "naysayers" on this. I'm with you. And as for mentioning the KISS rule that was Tom who had mentioned it to you about your posts. I only mention the KISS rule for FS to follow in keeping things as clear and concise as possible. The visual is what I am asking for, a new color icon.

    If I can see a color icon that represents this newly created situation, I can then go in and look for the details (ie names, date expires) that are going on. I think this is simple.

    I am a visual person. I just prefer and have become accustomed to to the Color Icon System that has been developed. I don't like that the Brown Temple Icon has now multiple or expanded meanings. Therefore, yes the System is working, but yes, I agree I see this as a "flaw" also.

    My post was to let all here know that as I was told by FS "they are working on it".
    I was hoping that would help all interested.
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    Sometimes "Simple" ain't so simple. With all the colors currently being used we are already having people who are color blind struggling some. Adding finer gradients in the color hues to get a larger number of colors in will only exacerbate that issue.

    Also, the brown icon always meant that the ordinance card for those ordinances has been printed from the temple reserve system. It still means that. It has always meant that the ordinance is soon to be done. It still means that.

    The dark green icon always meant that you have printed the ordinance card for that person (regardless of whether you reserved it directly or obtained a temporary "temple" reserve via Ordinances Ready). It still means that.

    The only "problem" arises when somebody wants to also know ALL THE DETAILS of how the temple system is handling it (i.e., who has the card, who is doing the ordinance work, who owns the ultimate "reservation", etc.) I don't believe it is necessary to add software to show all of these "footprints". I shared ordinances with the temple system and they are handling it. How they are doing it is of no consequence to me.

    All information shown to you through the view of an account should be correct for the OWNER of the account, which it IS right now. I think folks may be confusing themselves a lot by getting on to somebody else's account (which technically isn't even supposed to be happening in the first place), and seeing the status of those ordinances relative to that other person, and wondering why they are different.

    In this situation the statuses for each person ARE different so they SHOULD show up differently. If you ask the owner of the other account if the status shown to them is correct, they would have to say yes (e.g., they've printed the card). If you ask yourself (the owner of your account) if the status on your account is correct, you would also have to say yes (e.g., a card has been printed via the temple system that you shared your reservation with).

    I think that our curiosity about how the Ordinances Ready application of the temple system works may be causing us to look beyond the mark.

    If you have a Brown icon, it usually disappears completely when the ordinance is done. If the temple that printed it out has anything that would reverse that action (including an Ordinances Ready reserve timing out), it will turn red again.

    If you have a yellow or dark green icon, you know that you have some temporary control over that ordinance in the form of a "reservation". Normally it will only remain for about 2 years and will go back to its previous unreserved (by you) state (light green). If you have reserved and printed it via the temple system (i.e., Ordinances Ready) it is under your temporary control for a much shorter time after which it will go back to its previous unreserved (by you) state but reserved and shared with the temple by the original person with the reservation (red). The only significant thing that I would want to see on the Dark green icon is an indicator of the reserve time that is left or the reserve termination date. Who has which reservation and how it got there is of no consequence.

    The person getting an ordinance that was from the temple system doesn't really have need to know who put it there in the first place. Only that if they don't do the work quickly, they will lose it back to the temple system (I.e., the original person's reservation as a red icon). Again they don't need to know any more than that.

    The system currently does all of this and the status of the ordinance relative to the person owning the account is correct. I think that the addition feature requests are more of the "nice to have" nature.
    • Great explanation, Jeff. Not adversarial (thank you!). Very Clear ...especially for those who do not understand how the Color Icons work and their meaning. I do. Let me clarify this - I needed a little rethinking with Ord. Ready. I also understand your viewpoint that I am looking "beyond the mark". That all this is just a "nice to know" situation.

      Also great comment about those that are colorblind. Average 4.5% of the population (mainly male - less than .5% female) has this as an issue in varying degrees. And aging eyes seem to fall into this world. Something to consider. Right now my 65 year old female eyes like the Color Icon System. I depend on it daily with my lengthy Temple Reserve List. I am in the 99.5% of females that sees color.

      But we will agree to disagree on a couple points. Just because the Temple System has assigned a Shared name from my account to another that has printed it, is of no consequence to you, doesn't mean it isn't to ME.
      Please respect that! Maybe the average user to FS is not that wrapped up in the details ...they just want to see if their ancestors' Work has been completed or they just want some family name to take to the Temple (which is awesome on both accounts!). I work with these type of individuals consulting. As one who has been at this since 1978 and very involved with the various BETAs of Temple Ready to present, I feel VERY responsible to know about an Ancestor and their progress in their Temple Work. That has HUGE consequential meaning to ME. And after decades and seeing to our present day FS and computer systems/programs come to where they are, I am still not ready to 100% trust that errors won't happen. I believe the Engineers would say the same. The goal is perfection. The System is not there yet. Never will be. 2008-2009 was a mess with 1000s of names "trapped" in the System. Yes, a decade ago, but I still currently find names "trapped" and calls need to be made to alert FS. Those brown boxes with action dates are vital to know if a problem exists. Yes, we Genealogists/FH Folk can be a "prickly brunch". Do we miss "the mark"? Get into the "thick of thin things"? Or see it as coming to the rescue of a Ancestor or their spouse's Work because someone trusted the System years ago. I therefore cannot turn over my feeling of responsibility just because I Shared with the Temple System.

      I do (very sheepishly) go into my daughter's account to see what is going on and who now has printed the card. It's either that or I have to call FS and to see what is really happening. I don't think they want that daily! And the person that has printed the card is a Cousin! A new found Cousin...that I can now contact and collaborate with. This is one of the founding, guiding principles that
      Pres. Gordon B. Hinckley wanted when all this was started. By not allowing me to see that information, you have just taken away one of the top goals of this program. Collaboration.

      And again, I, as the original Submitter/Sharer of an Ancestor's Work, feel I should have #1 priority over the details to follow their progress. No special privileges asked here - Please - Just make the details equally available.

      How we get there now?

      #1 New color icon for "Ordinance Ready Printed"

      #2 View in Submitter's account detail of action taken (Temple, Patron and date)

      #3 All printed actions rising to the top of the Subitter's Shared Modified list to most current date (right now I see the brown Ord. boxes buried sometimes deep in my Shared Modified List depending on when I reserved them)
    • Mary Evelyn Jones Tady,

      My "of no consequence" comments were really all over stated. I apologize for that. I guess I was trying to emphasize the fact that currently these things function more or less consistently. There certainly are things that might be done to improve the information available to those using the system But if you use the current general meaning of the icons as shown in the legends, it is basically correct.

      Your point about the Use Cases where you feel responsible for seeing to it that the work is completed is totally valid and I agree whole-heartedly as I feel the same way. I suspect that part of the reason the issues exist is just from the evolution of the system as they try to figure out how it is actually used.

      For example, the temple system can essentially assign the ordinance work for your reservations shared with the temple to anybody and ultimately you still hold the reservation if things don't proceed as expected. And yet, if you want to assign the ordinance work for your reservations to family, you must give up your reservation and all practical visibility on what is happening there. Why? It's probably just the way the system has evolved and it hasn't gotten there yet. Hopefully it will become more cohesive over time.

      So yes, I don't quite "trust" the Ordinances Ready system yet. This whole discussion is based on the fact that the "signals" being put out for the status of things are not intuitively obvious (even though once you learn the inside manner of viewing those signals in different accounts, it can make more sense). I went through the same thing when it first was introduced since understanding it was rather convoluted.

      For example, why in the world is it that when we get home from doing some ordinance work at the temple, that we have messages telling us what we have just done (which we ALREADY know)? This in light of when somebody ELSE does the work on one of our reservations shared with the temple, we DO NOT receive any notification and we have no idea that it was done. Instead, that ordinance on out temple list just silently disappears.

      The Use Case for a person being able to take on the responsibility to ensure that their ancestor's work is being completed HAS NOT BEEN COMPLETELY ADDRESSED at this time. This seems pretty odd to me since I thought THAT was the top priority the church had in setting up this system in the first place. I think that this priority may be forgotten occasionally during development on the system when the "Hows" starts taking priorities over the "Whys".

      I'm not sure that the best solutions here are by adding on more clutter to the system since it seems that the structure itself needs to be improved. The only practical ways forward may very well be along the line of the 3 items you mentioned.
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