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some patrons need temple cards back.

I heard that you are not going to give back the cards after the ordinances are done. Why? I need those cards. I know that you post the work that is done on the message area but I like to double check the work, specially when I give a name to someone in my ward. I guess I am old fashioned but if there is still work to be done ( sealing to parents or to spouse) I like to have that in my hands. please let us have our cards back if we want them.
I have had occasions when the temple work was not recorded, when I called family search they wanted me to show that it was done. I save my cards and I can give the date and the temple that was used. If I do not get my cards back I have no proof.
Sister Overstreet
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  • 1
    Sister OVERSTREET

    Firstly, "Welcome" to this "FamilySearch" ( "GetStaisfaction" ) 'Feedback' Forum.

    Secondly, "Official 'FamilySearch' Representatives", do monitor; and, sometimes, participate in, this Forum.

    Thirdly, I am just another User/Patron, just like yourself (and, happen to be a Member of the Church).

    Many Users/Patrons who regularly participate in this Forum who have a great deal of knowledge and experience with "FamilySearch", like to assist/help other Users/Patrons like yourself.

    Finally, from whom; and, when, did you hear that the "Temples" are not going to be giving back the "Temple" Cards after the "Ordinances" have been "Completed"?

    This is news to me; and, perhaps, many!

    Exactly as you implied in your post, those "Temple" Cards that are "Completed" that we, get back; and, retain, are REQUIRED, as "Prima Facie" Evidence to support a Case that the "Temple" Work was, in fact, "Completed"; but, NOT recorded in the "Temple" database; and/or, "Family Tree".

    The situation were the "Temple" Work was, in fact, "Completed"; but, NOT recorded in the "Temple" database; and/or, "Family Tree", happens quite frequently - I have had to help many Members throughout the World, "Scan" the "Temple" Cards that they hold (ie. retain) with the "Ordinances" that have been "Completed"; and, submit those "Scanned" cards through a 'Support' Case, to get the "Temple" Work that was "Completed" recorded.

    If what you suggest is the case; then, this is of a critical concern!

    Lets hope that an "Official 'FamilySearch' Representative" WILL take the time to join in on this post of yours; and, 'shed some light' on this concerning matter.

    Brett
    • view 11 more comments
    • Any printed card is valid see this help center article. --- https://familysearch.org/ask/productS...
      However you will note that you can verify if ordinances have been done before using so that you do not duplicate (earliest completed ordinance is the one that displays)
    • This comment was removed on 2019-09-07.
      see the change log
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  • I’m frustrated
    thank you for your response. I heard it just yesterday from a friend who helps me with doing ordinances for my male cards. He told me that after the 21 of May they will not be given back at the Provo Temple where he attends. But I heard that is already the case at an other Temple in Utah. But that it is only a trial at that temple. I cannot remember the name at this time. It is the 4 corner Temple.
    This is a critical concern for me.

    Sister Overstreet
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  • Well like my previous post suggested it could come. 2 Temples are in pilot phase.
    • view 17 more comments
    • The problem is speeding up the process. The originals will be kept by the temple for the purpose (or so we have been told) of auditing the ordinance(s), to make sure they were recorded correctly.

      The temple staff may be willing (if they are authorized to do so) to scan the card(s) and give the copy to the patron. We don't know and are speculating what might be the case.
    • Tom, what originals? They get shredded per the ordinance secretary I talked with earlier, if not picked up promptly by patrons within specific time periods. Salt Lake Temple is already on new system. Ditto for Bountiful Temple. It is responsibility of the patrons to make advance arrangements for certain ordinances to pick up the cards promptly, not weeks later.

      No such scanners to scan whole cards. Only the bar codes.
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  • I like keeping the cards because I often go back through old cards and recheck those families. I often will find a spouse and children of someone I did ordinances on years ago. Sometimes I find a sibling I didn't when I researched them before. I am puzzled why this would be considered a benefit.
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  • 1
    I can see one advantage that the temple workers wouldn't be rushed to to get all of the cards recorded immediately after a session so that the owners of the cards could get them back before leaving.

    However, we do have cases where cards sometimes don't get recorded (possibly due to the rush?). In these cases, without the original card and the completed date, it's hard to go back and have the error corrected.
    • view 7 more comments
    • That said, Ron Tanner has told me he is aware of my feedback and they are exploring options--what more could I ask? I am especially appreciative of how FS has acknowledged and participated in this discussion. It has been enlightening and helpful.
    • Yes I have been assured that the cards that I have printed that were reserved by my deceased wife will be released in two years, and the work will be done. That does not allow me to keep my promise to her, that I would do the work. This is personal commitment that I made to my sweet wife of 53 years. I want to try to keep that commitment.
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  • 1
    I suspect this practice applies to those cards for which all ordinances are completed or otherwise hashed out. I doubt seriously that it will apply to those cards where ordinances have yet to be completed.

    But I don't know. I do know that this gets back to checking to make sure the ordinances are marked after returning home. Practice keeping a copy of the cards (print them twice) so you can mark the duplicate with the date you went to the temple.
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  • This applies to all cards that you take to the temple. Once an ordnance is done the temple will keep the card for a very short limited time.
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  • 1
    It is my understanding in the temple districts where it is being tested. Patrons are being asked to only print the ordinances they plan on doing that day. This is a significant change. Many print all of the ordinances and then keep the card or pass it to other family members to complete certain ordinances and then get the card back. Others print all ordinances and then recover the card and keep it for the next trip. The system being tested would possibly require several cards be printed for an individual to complete all the ordinances if they are going to be done on different days or in different temples. It will take some significant re-arrangement in thinking if the the system is implemented in all temples.
    • view 4 more comments
    • Before we accuse others of forgetting the bigger picture and ignoring the needs of others, we should seek to understand their perspective. Perhaps their hoarding isn't usually all about selfishness?
    • I do not think my wife and I hoarded any names. We were in the temple every week for the past few years. I am retired and was a temple worker in TOnga when she and I served a mission there. Had she not gotten sick and died, we would have completed all of her cards in less than 6 months. I see the BIGGER picture, but also have a personal commitment to my sweet wife of 53 years. THis is one of the last commitments that I made to her that I can carry out at this time.
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  • 1
    You know, this is really excellent! Whether you like the direction this pilot is going or not, it has been great to have a member of FS staff participating here in and providing rumor control :-) All topics should be like this.

    Thank you Phil Jeffrey!
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  • AFAIK, when the cards are not picked up promptly, at least Jordan River and Bountiful (I haven't seen Salt Lake drawers yet) they get filed in stake drawers to be picked up within certain time limits. Jordan River, it is 2 weeks.

    At Jordan River, they have rubber stamps for each stake specifically assigned to Jordan River Temple, stamp on the back of cards before distribution, NOT afterwards. I haven't checked Bountiful and Salt Lake thoroughly.
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  • I’m frustrated
    3
    I have enjoyed the messages that have come on family search showing when the temple ordinances were done. But I still worry about some names that would be showing recorded and actually not being recorded.
    I am a Clerk Support Helper and also a Ordinance worker at the Timpanogos temple and I understand the extra work that is being done with having to scan and stamp the cards within a reasonable time, and return them to the patrons.
    So please give us an option whether we keep the cards or not.
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  • 1
    Emmanuella

    Exactly.

    At least, give us the choice/option to request the RETURN of the "Cards" after each session.

    "Free Agency"; and, all that ...

    I would rather WAIT, for the "Completed" Card(s), to be processed; and, get it/them BACK.

    Brett
    • Brett, just my guess - but based on what I do know about these changes - if everyone was as diligent as you seem to be about getting cards back and then turning around and getting the uncompleted ordinances done in a very timely manner, it's possible we would not be in this situation. But unfortunately there are very, very large numbers of people that are very casual about the cards they bring to the temples, and in some temples those cards have sat for years without being discarded - in hopes that people will come back and get them. After years of sitting, many of the "uncompleted" ordinance turn out to have been done anyway, apparently by other people when the 2-year reservation runs out, or as temple file names. The whole world does not work by any one individuals personal "rules" or preferences (for better or worse). ;-)
    • This is a good point. If cards are not returned, it is less likely that ordinances will be duplicated. We should all check all ordinances before we take a card to the temple in case it was a duplicate that has been merged and ordinances have all ready been completed or it is so old that someone else has reserved and completed the ordinances. We don't want to be doing ordinances more than once with so many backlogged. I personally have only been printing one ordinance at a time as many people help me do our family ordinances and some prefer one ordinance or another. This works fine and is easier to track in your reservation list, as only ordinances assigned to a person show as printed. We can make this work. I also liked the idea of printing a duplicate or writing down the number, then checking online to make sure it was recorded. If we called the temple right away about ordinances not recorded, they would still have the card.
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    • view 1 more comment
    • Well... we can also provide feedback on this forum. :)
    • True, but in this case, I don't know if the feedback gets back to the appropriate ruling body (the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve). The best we can hope for in providing feed back on ordinance matters is that our thoughts are passed back "up the line." . . . hopefully.
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  • You ask hard would it be maybe, pretty easy in Utah or Idaho as we have plenty of staff but that doesn't fit everywhere. There is no option to return the cards doing so would just place FS and the temples in the same situation we are now in. Keep in mind also this wasn't a whim that FS or the temples "just wanted to do" this was talked about for a long time and approved by the 1st Presidency and to change it would take the same level .Suggestion I have heard people use is print a double set at home before you come and manually mark the day you did the ordnance if you need a physical card. Mt Timp typically scans the cards and you often get a message they are done before you get home. If you don't get a message in a couple of days you can call the temples as the cards will be held for a short period of time. The temple system was enhanced with some additional checks and balances so you shouldn't have to have cards or call the temple going forward and its working very well in pilot temples.
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  • 1
    My suggestion is to either print duplicate cards with those we take to the temple, or to print (as Jeff suggests) a pdf file, and print the cards from that file. For the most part, a pdf file is produced anyway, so keeping that in its own directory is certainly an option.

    That way, when we return home, we can check to make sure the message we get shows that the ordinance(s) were completed.

    I'm not sure what will be done with respect to taking a name to the temple and going through all the vicarious ordinances for that person in one trip. I would check with the temple as to how they plan to handle that. My thought is that they could use some special holder that goes back to the patron each time they complete an ordinance, with the ordinance checked by pencil. Then after the final ordinance is complete, all of the ordinances could be stamped and scanned.

    That will take some training on the part of the staff, but I suspect that kind of patron temple use is rare and not common. Some of the remote temples may have special provisions that apply, especially for those who have to travel some distance to attend the temple.

    We won't know fully what will apply and what won't until this is put into place in all temples.
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  • 1
    There are many kinds of temple attender. They are all good but have different needs.
    There are those who come to the temple and take a temple name from the temple file. Very good
    There are those who go to their family files and find a name that fs sent to them. Very good.
    There are those who help family members or ward members with their family cards. Very good.
    And there are those who do research and share their names with the temple and with other family members or ward members.
    At this time of my life, I have time and desire and ability to do research of my ancestors, and attend the temple multiple time each week. When my family was young I could not do that.
    Those of us who have the time and do research like to have our cards back.

    But I will follow the prophet and do what ever the first Presidency wants me to do.
    • view 2 more comments
    • Let me pose this question. I worked in what is called DQ (data Quality) they are the group that makes corrections, bad merges, pre 1500, missing ordinance data etc. I have done thousands of cases of missing ordinance dates. The question is how many of you have had to show a temple card for proof when the ordinance was done after the year 2000 ? Everyone of the ones I corrected were typically 1930-1950 time frame ?
    • For me, a few times for post-1950 (mine have typically been in the 1970s-1980s range). But I am pretty sure never (to a FH consultant) for anything post-2000. But the reason it is never, is because I can typically look at the card myself and unmerge/adjust it in FSFT myself for recent problems. The card is an extremely helpful investigative tool because it has readily-available information that FSFT doesn't have.

      I want to be clear--using the FSFT it is technically possible to dig through the change log from the record inception until now, and the change logs for all merged individuals, and after much effort find out whether a listed person's ordinances actually belong to them or to someone else. So cards are technically not needed as long as you are willing to put serious time into investigation for every individual with heavy edits in their years-long history.

      But the card pairs vitals and relationships together with the ordinance date--it is a snapshot of that crucial point in time. Thus, with the card, it takes seconds rather than hours to confirm whether the FSFT-listed ordinances actually belong to that individual, or whether they are mis-assigned.

      I keep cards not just for me, but for my children who will look at the system many years from now and ask, as I do for every single ancestor and relative: "Despite what FSFT says on its face, does that individual *actually* have their ordinance work done?" The physical cards will save them countless hours of research trying to answer that question, all over again, for every relative.

      A short, small pilot is not likely to reveal this problem, as it usually takes years for a record to be muddied to the point of uncertainty in this way, and most users don't even know that the data in the "ordinances" tab could be wrong.

      In my view, the best solution would be to expand the viewable data in the "ordinances" tab to show all ordinances (duplicate or otherwise) assigned that individual, together with the name, vitals, and family relationships that were present *at time of ordinance.* Then any user could decided at a glance if a listed ordinance really belongs to that person. This solution would be better than a physical card, as it would help every user discover the truth, not just the person who has the card.

      Presuming that is off the table, the confirmation message could list not just a name (like it currently does), but vitals and family relationships like the card does. Then that confirmation message could serve the same purpose the card does, in terms of this future investigative need.
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  • 1
    I have shoeboxes full of completed cards, and have shared, or hope to share, these boxes with my grandchildren. Many records are added each month to FS. SOME might be siblings, wives,cousins, or parents of my ancestors represented by the card.
    By using the PID, I am sure they will find "green temples" of those whose reserved ordinances have expired, or some "unshared" with the Temple.
    I guess I will strart a PDF file of future "finds", to assure ALL possible relatives are found.
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  • This reply was removed on 2019-07-05.
    see the change log
  • So let me pose another question for a topic of discussion based off those answers above. I am not sure how many of your are old enough to remember the old family group sheets we use to submit to do the work. Lots of the same comments came when we discontinued them. I need proof, I want to give a copy of  them to my children, grandchildren etc. How many of you got pages of them and what did you do with them after a while ? I got lots of pages from my dad and since it all was recorded and really had no value other than sentimental they got tossed. My children saw no value in them and my grandchildren who are tech savvy say why are you keeping that old stuff it's recorded ? Hmmm good points. I took digital images of them and why I suggested you do that before you go into the temple. 
    • I have the cards my parents gave me and I use them! So do they! I also use scanned paper submissions from the old IGI system. See my extensive response above to determine how they are used and why they save hundreds of hours of research. Please--you have experience with this--if you know of a better way of accomplishing the same task noted above, educate me!

      The only answer I've ever gotten from FS is that it may often be less effort to redo all the ordinances than to dig through all the change logs to make sure the ordinances are accurately assigned. A card shortcuts that.

      Again, I don't need the card! I do need a snapshot!
    • The question is will the Uah Temples accept a copy of a card, say for initory work that has a handwritten date and name of the temple on it as opposed to one with a stamped date and temple name when you take that card to the Temple to do the endowment? I guess I can test that. I have a feeling they will want a card with a stamped date and temple name.
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  • 2
    I am old enough to remember all those sheets. I still have some of them (souvenir).

    But in those days they used to send you a sheet with the name of the person, and date of birth, place of birth etc. and also the date of the ordinance done and the person who performed it.
    When the computer came into being, I recopied those names into the computer. That is how I learned to use a computer. My mother who had done all that research and sent the names to Salt Lake, was too old to want to learn.

    So i copied all of that into the old FS, and also into the PAF program. then I tossed the evidence. ( big mistake)
    Later on when the old FS became what it is now. A great number of the ordinances dates did not make the transition.
    So when I would call, they would say that there was a glitch in the transfer and that I needed to redo the ordinances.
    That is why I need proof. (In case at some future point there is a glitch again). If when I pass on my family decides to throw the cards away, that will be their demise as mine was when I thru away the sheets.
    I can say that familysearch has fixed some of the problems but I still have some names in my old PAF, that need to be fixed.
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  • I received on July 3rd an official church announcement, telling me that as of July 16, the Mt Timpanogos temple, Payson Temple, Provo City Center Temple and Provo Utah temple will NO LONGER return family name cards
    • view 1 more comment
    • I would be concerned that Facebook is not an appropriate forum to discuss sacred temple ordinance work procedures in public.... Those that don't believe as we do could twist and "use" discussions such as this for purposes that would be neither fair nor in the Church's best interest.
    • Ron Tanner does discuss temple ordinances from time to time. He spent quite a bit of time talking about the SP ordinance where the parent's vicarious ordinances could not be performed, but the names were known.

      As one of the main managers over Family Search, Ron is perhaps in the best position to discuss these kinds of matters.

      The church is working toward more transparency including what goes on inside the temple and certain aspects of our lives as it pertains to sacred covenants that we make. For instance, see https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/t.... Something of that nature was never brought up not that long ago (maybe a decade or less).

      Talking about things of this nature in the correct context is clearing away a lot of the mystique that has (in the past) surrounded our way of life. The Joseph Smith Papers, a large multi-volume set, provides details about the life of the Prophet that had often been distorted in the past. So I'm not surprised to see Ron discuss temple ordinances and the policies concerning them.
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  • Dear brothers and sisters, 

    When taking the name of an ancestor to the temple, please be aware that after July 16 the Mount Timpanogos Utah, Payson Utah, Provo City Center, and Provo Utah Temples will no longer return family name cards. Instead, you will receive a message through FamilySearch Messages confirming that the ordinance has been completed. This change in procedure will reduce recording errors and eliminate time you spend waiting for cards to be returned to you. 

    As part of the change, please print only the ordinances that you need for each visit to the temple. You can track the progress of your ancestors' ordinances on the FamilySearch website or Family Tree app by viewing your list of reserved ordinances. 

    Thank you for serving in the house of the Lord. May the Lord bless you for your efforts! 

    Sincerely, 

    Temple and Family History Departments
    • view 15 more comments
    • "The most important question people should be asking is will this change increase the accuracy of the recording of ordinances?" I disagree. Long-term preservation of accurate records is just as important as recording it correctly the first time.
    • No one is assigning a mythical status to cards, but many here have pointed out specific example use cases that describe their very real value--value that goes far beyond preventing a few duplicate ordinances.

      The claim that cards are no longer authoritative once the ordinances are entered into the database is false. Physical cards are commonly used to correct the digital record.

      Disclaimer 1: To be clear since I was called out on this earlier--I am not claiming that the cards are infallible, nor am I claiming that cards could never be trumped by other records under certain circumstances.

      Disclaimer 2: To be clear, I am still not advocating for keeping the cards.
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  • Oh, OK, so then here's why I will be boycotting the Utah Valley temples after next week:

    Yesterday my wife and I did 12 sealing-to-parents (SP) at the Jordan River Temple. Though we got the messaging in FamilySearch showing they were completed, they are still showing as waiting to be performed in our Temple reservation (Printed) queue.

    This is one example (from L8QB-VCD Leslie Jones) of how they were recorded in FamilySearch by the Temple department (about 20 hours ago), which explains why the above is happening:



    So I need to get dressed and go visit the recorders office at the Jordan River Temple, and show them this card, and ask them to fix it:



    But the same thing also happened (and is still happening) from the Logan temple on June 18th (2 1/2 weeks ago) on KLC2-4T5 Ephraim Boomer. But that's too far to drive just to show the card. And we could just do them over again, but the red mark would prevent that (so we could just print them again). But then it would probably record the same way (to unknown parents), which puts me into an infinite loop.

    • view 5 more comments
    • Ron Tanner (FamilySearch.org Product Manager) July 13, 2019 21:48
      This is a bug. We are working on a fix but it is complicated as we are rewriting the software for performance.
    • Thanks, Ron. And for the rest of us, THAT is why the Church wisely institutes test programs in limited areas before rolling out something Church-wide. Yes, a few of those in the test areas may be inconvenienced, but the greater purpose behind all this isn't always going to be fully visible to all of us at the general level. These changes are NOT being done at lower levels outside the awareness and direct involvement of the most senior priesthood leaders.
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  • 2
    Which brings up another topic I've been meaning to post:

    Please get agreement with the temple department, to include printing of the PID of each parent on the temple cards. Because I've been watching sealers comparing the parent names on other cards, from which they have been assuming the parents are the same just because the names match.

    But some of these names are merely a coincidence because of common names used (especially if the wife has a common maiden name or no maiden name). Whereas printing the actual PID for each parent (in small print below their names) could clarify. (As well as help the recorders know for a fact that these are indeed the correct parents to be recorded as linking to.)
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  • 1
    But I just tried to re-print the Leslie Jones sealing-to-Parents card, and I got a big red-over-pink error message saying: "! There was an error printing your card."

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  • 2
    Seems to me that a lot of folks are overlooking what has been told to us by FamilySearch:

    1. "this was talked about for a long time and approved by the 1st Presidency and to change it would take the same level "

    That means that any concerns really need to be taken up with your local Priesthood leadership. That is the only way that the concerns will go up through the proper channels.

    2. "Many of the errors were caused by the human factor of rushing to get the cards to the office so patrons could get them."

    3. "Temples don't want to be card repositories and have to manage that. My temple has a massive desk full of cards that go back years in many cases." (Phil Jeffery)

    4. "If you get outside of US and specifically outside Utah and Idaho many new smaller temples don't have the space, temple workers and organization to manage cards. Many have very limited hours as well."

    5. "This applies to all cards that you take to the temple. Once an ordnance is done the temple will keep the card for a very short limited time."

    6. There was a comment somewhere that there will be additional training for the staff of the temples as the program is implemented. I could not find the thread in which that comment was made.

    7. "The temple system was enhanced with some additional checks and balances so you shouldn't have to have cards or call the temple going forward and its working very well in pilot temples."

    The above points (except #6) were made by Phil Jeffrey.
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    7. "The temple system was enhanced with some additional checks and balances so you shouldn't have to have cards or call the temple going forward and its working very well in pilot temples."

    Failed in my most recent case - 3 baptisms were not recorded. I discovered them after reviewing the cards against the FamilyTree on account of need to check for new hints, etc few days later.

    These 3 were very new additions to FamilyTree.

    So the person responsible for recording failed to catch these 3 out of more than 100 baptisms done that day (I was there good 4 hours overseeing the distribution and return of the family cards.) And no I can't return to the same temple since it is closed July 1 to 15th).
    • view 8 more comments
    • Brett, I like your idea of scanning an image.
    • And, STILL returning the "Processed"; and, "Completed" CARDS, with the "Tick" and "Date Stamp", back to us
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  • Tom, Salt Lake Temple is using new system already and practically enforce the Law of Two Witnesses and this temple does NOT have file drawers at all.

    Out of more than 100 cards, 3 slipped through. Keep in mind in the baptistry - the youths are delegated the responsibility of scanning the completed cards under watch of the worker before the cards are stamped.

    On that particular day I was there, everybody got 3 cards to do baptisms in the afternoon. One youth obvious did not do it right, meaning I have to be on watch for those that slipped by. These 3 baptisms have to be redone after July 15th.

    Jon Thomas,
    It is clearly the sealing office workers did not follow the Law. Each card has to be scanned in presence of another witness before the card can be stamped. In your case, the cards were not scanned properly.
    • view 7 more comments
    • The responsibility is delegated to the patrons to do the scanning and recording after ordinance is done. This was started last year according to the supervisor I asked about the increased delegation of responsibilities I've seen lately.
    • According to the ordinance secretary (yes there is such a position) in Salt Lake Temple, Salt Lake Temple is considered a tourist temple.
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    Just take the cards back to the Temple (any Temple) and the workers at the Family Desk will take care of them. I always check to make sure that all my cards are scanned and ready for the next ordinance or, if completed, filed away.
    Erika
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    Have anyone bothered to check the prices of paper and ink? Reprinting after each ordinance drive up the cost.

    The paper isn't cheaper any longer. Especially white. Ink prices are actually creeping upwards.
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  • The scanning at completion of each ordinance (baptism/confirmation, initiatory, endowment and sealings are separation steps), requires certifying that the scan is done. Otherwise the temple recorder has to be called in.
    • W David

      'Yes', correct.

      But, ... Errors/Mistakes ..., are still being; and, will still be, made.

      Hence, the reason WHY I want those, supposedly, "Processed"; and, "Completed" CARDS, with the "Tick" and "Date Stamp", back, to retain those CARDS as 'Evidential Proof' that the Work was actually undertaken - and, NOT have to be told (Oh, you will just have) to do it AGAIN.

      Brett
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    Without a doubt, errors will occur, but the new system is designed to minimize the human error element. Will cards not be scanned? Perhaps, but the process should reduce that possibility significantly.

    Only time will tell.

    My local temple (Chicago) is now closed for summer cleaning and renovation. I suspect (but do not know) that the new system will be in place following the renovation.
    • view 2 more comments
    • I do not think any cards will be destroyed until the temple workers are certain the work has been recorded. Without the time constraint of waiting patrons there will be greater accuracy. We do not need to worry. I have every confidence this will be good thing.
    • Brett, we have been told that the temple will hang onto the cards for a period of time (two weeks has been mentioned). The patron will know whose cards were taken to the temple. They will know what ordinance was performed from the cards. The information is in their Temple list, or, if smart, the PDF they used to print the cards.

      You don't need the proof, they will be sitting with the temple for a period of time after the cards were completed.

      In essence, it will be the same as it is with temple-shared ordinances. We will become the one to determine if we took the card(s) to the temple and if they were recorded per our record and that has to take place within a few days of completing the ordinance(s).

      Again, if you have concerns, take them to your Priesthood leaders. Continuing to argue the concerns and demand that the cards be returned is like asking for the major change made almost a year ago be rolled back.

      Finally, FamilySearch, because this was basically decided outside its purview, is not going to change the process. That has to come from the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve.
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    Had a very good chat with ordinance secretary at Provo City Center Temple.

    The shocker? 6 percent actually picked up their cards. The rest are left and not proceeded.

    The responsibility is shifted from the temple workers to patrons to do and pick up promptly same day (carry in and carry out). PCC has file drawers only for next ordinances to do. Completed cards will not be returned unless arrangement had been made with the recorder's office/ordinance secretary.

    Salt Lake Temple does NOT have file drawers - no rooms due to sheer number of stakes covered by Salt Lake Temple district (from Elko Nevada all the way to Park City Utah.)

    You can get your cards back *IF* you made arrangements with the offices.

    And the secretary is very much aware of missed scanning problem and efforts are being ensured in all temples that there be two witnesses at all the time of the scanning and stamping.
    • view 14 more comments
    • I go with scanning the cards twice. then returning them to the patrons. Years ago we did scan the family cards twice but not the temple list.
      We scanned, stamped then scanned again. It was quick and accurate. I don't know why they stopped doing that way. Let's go back to it.
      If a patron cannot wait for their cards, they are kept at the temple for 1 month at Mt. Timpanogos. I know other temple also keep them for a certain length of time.
      If a patron wants their cards they will come back and pick them up when they do another ordinance.
      Emmanuella
    • All shifts are on 4 hours.

      Baptism office, the patrons do the scanning themselves under watch of the baptism supervisory and they do get them back immediately after scanning and stamping.

      Initiatory - request BEFORE start if scanning is not at iniatory desk.

      Endowments are taken by the workers and taken to the office to be scanned and stamped. It is up to the patrons to pick them up if they want them back.

      Sealings - request the recording (scanning and stamping) while you are in sealing office BEFORE start of sealing session. It will be done promptly and picked up at office. (Verified after I made the calls).
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  • Ron Tanner (FamilySearch.org Product Manager) July 11, 2019 04:55
    We are also considering providing a completed temple list where you can go, find your reservation and print the card. It will have the date and temples where that reservation was done. Would this be helpful? If so, why?
    • view 4 more comments
    • Jeff, if it did not show up within 24 hours, then the person did not follow the procedure (2 witnesses to ensure the scanning is actually flashed on computer monitor.) I know because I saw with my own eyes that the scanning has to be done carefully to ensure the bar code had been scanned. After all I had more than 600 baptisms in one month and I had to watch most of time to ensure the proxies do them right, even taking part as needed if staff is short-handed at times (that is Salt Lake Temple, which can be busy at times.)
    • If I can't get the physical cards back (which would still be my preference), having a "completed" temple work tab with all the work which has been done for the relatives I have reserved work for would be helpful to me. Since I share the actual cards with my relatives, I would more easily be able to find what work has been completed to track it. With the current message system (which I do like), I am not able to search for a specific person to see their completed work. Being able to sort that list in various ways would be helpful.
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    I wonder if one of the reasons (aside from accuracy of completed ordinances) that many desire to keep the card is because many of us are not screen driven. I don't know if this makes sense to anyone besides me, but when I hold that card of my relative that I spent hours in finding (often through miraculous means), documenting, praying over, sheding tears for, and serving in a tangible, spiritual way, I feel the deep connection to them and remember all of those experiences again.

    For years on each card I have written my relationship to the relative through a line pedigree and how they are connected. "Christine - Elden - Theodore - Julia - William. William's cousin's son." I write little snippets of their life - "father died in a Civil War prisoner of war camp in Elmira, New York 2 days before the Civil War ended." "Mother of 10 children - 8 who died as infants." "died in a coal mine accident at 16 years" "died as an infant 1 day old - also had 5 other infant siblings who died less than one month old" All of these examples are from real people in my family. While waiting in the temple to perform the temple ordinances I (or my family who I share my cards with) read the back of the card and think about that person and their life experiences - the joys, challenges, trials and hardships they experienced. Because of this simple documenting on those physical cards the temple experience is deeper and more personal.

    Do I need the card to feel and remember those sacred experiences? No, but looking on a computer screen does not bring those feelings and memories back to me. Perhaps for some people the computer or screen can bring those connections, but for me the card represents much more than simply a name.

    However, because I support the Brethren, I will happily reprint new cards for each ordinance (as I usually do anyway since it is an easier way to ensure no extra duplication which may have occurred since the time I printed the first ordinance) and spend the time writing the relationship and reminders on the back of the card multiple times. It seems a small price to pay in time and effort to reap such bounteous blessings.

    In answer to Ron's question. Yes, a completed list might be helpful. :)
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  • "I wonder if one of the reasons (aside from accuracy of completed ordinances) that many desire to keep the card is because many of us are not screen driven."

    Yep. That is at least partially what I meant about investing an almost mythical status in the cards. People focus on the wrong thing. They focus on the representation of the process, rather than the process itself and the result of the process. A secular equivalent is people waxing lyrical about the smell and feel and look of paper books. They don't seem to realise that with modern screen-reading devices text can be very much easier to read in terms of clarity and that you can do things like text-to-speech, or even via things like Audible's Whispersync get an actual unabridged audiobook read out in time to the highlighted text or search the text. With paper books there are genuine advantages they have such as not having any vulnerability to power cuts (at least during the day!). With the ordinance cards I see perceived, but not actual advantages for them, unlike paper books v ebooks or optical discs v downloaded or streamed music where I can see actual advantages for the physical medium.
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  • Transition in technology is always hard at first as we often have no idea what the unknowns will be. For example going from PAF to NFS was very hard for many and still is as I see cases all the time about PAF. I really believe this will work out and we will look back later and wonder why it wasn't done before. Bumps in the road will get worked out and those that really, really want cards will find options till they feel comfortable.
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  • Scanning the card twice will not help with the problems I have been experiencing. I have had multiple SP ordinances show up as having been recorded. But when I go into the actual ordinance page I see that the original entry showing when I printed the card and to whom the child will be sealed is still there. There is a new entry showing the date of the sealing (which is the date stamped on the card) and then a message stating that the parents names are private or that they do not match those listed in FT. I have had this happen 7 times this year. I am not sure the new process will improve this as the summary page and the person page both showed the work was done. I went into Roots Magic and for some of these (2005 and 2011) it shows that I transferred over the SP and the parents names and now it shows the sealing date with no parents. It will now allow me to request the SP to the parents, which are the same parents that came over with the sealing into RM. This issue doesn't sound like a recording issue. If I didn't have my cards, how would I prove it to correct the problem.
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    • Thank you for your comments. In reference to RM, I was referring to transferring ordinance work from FT into RM, which you can still do. I have checked for merges, and didn't find any after the ordinance work was done. There have been some name changes, like adding middle names or removing names to align with how they were known as. I will continue to double check each one. Though on some of them the change log ends in 2012, when the moved over from nFS. The only one that has been corrected is one in which someone else came in and deleted the parent-child relationship instead of merging the parents. I restored and merged and now the ordinance is displaying correctly.
    • I was able to correct all the errors in the display of the SP.

      One involved a parent-child relationship deleted in 2018. The relationship was deleted because it was a duplicate that could not be merged due to identical PID's The child was removed, which removed the SP to the child, her 3 siblings and her 8 children. When I restored the relationship the SP for all were restored. I then removed the parent and the SP's for all remained correct.

      The others were due to merges in 2018. The incorrectly displayed SP occurred for all siblings. I had to restore the deleted person, then I looked for any children in the deleted persons record that had the SP ordinance done. When I re-merged, I look for those children, then I clicked on replace and moved them over to the left side. This cleared up the problem for all the siblings.

      If the merge was with the child, I restored the deleted person and switched the position so that the person remaining had the SP ordinance.

      Everything is displaying correctly.

      Until the bug is fixed, I will check for the SP ordinance for the person and/or their children associated with the soon to be deleted person in a merge.

      Thanks for your help. This has been a most informative group.
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  • That is a tree Data Quality issue and having cards or not wouldn't make any difference since they were recorded but just may not be showing because of a merge or some other factor. Those get sorted out by sending cases to our Data Quality Group
    • view 2 more comments
    • Like Tom said the more details you provide the better it will be and not get a boilerplate template. I can't tell you how many cases I have seen like my uncle John Smith has the wrong ordinance dates. Like how many John Smith's do you think we have? Even with dates and places that can be difficult but with a PID maybe parents' name if you have them or a spouse or children the better document the case the less chance it will come back to you for more details. Here is a little inside knowledge. DQ is extremely backed up and in some cases months, rejecting a case for lack of details can push you back sometimes to the end. Document, document, document if you want it to get it resolved ASAP.
    • It's like the people who post here that Uncle Bob has the wrong date of birth. They have no comprehension of how many Bobs and Roberts there are in FSFT.
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  • Having the physical card helps me with the flow of monitoring completed temple work, and I do keep them permanently for a record.

    Your previously stated ideas about printing a PDF file of the cards, or taking a picture before you go in the temple only works if you are doing the temple work yourself. I give the physical cards to relatives to help do the work. When the ordinances (except for sealings) are complete, they give them back to me. I can then check to be sure all the appropriate ordinances (parents are sealed, etc.) are completed before we do the sealings together as a family. Having to only print one ordinance at a time to give to my relatives will be very time consuming and expensive.

    I know that I can "share" through FS, and they can print the cards themselves, but I spent the time to find my ancestors, and I want to be sure that their temple work gets done, and then recorded in my desktop program. The best way for me to do that is to have the physical cards to track the work.

    I have also had work that hasn't been recorded and I have had the "proof" because I had the card, not only when the work is done, but recorded work has disappeared and I have had to contact FS to get it restored.

    I have enjoyed getting the messages that temple work from my file is completed, as I can see who in my family did the work by the temple the work was done in. But, as has been previously stated, if the card doesn't get scanned correctly, it won't show up in a message. My relatives that have the cards would have to go to that person in FS to check if it got recorded, because I won't know that they even attended the temple, and they won't have the names on their FS temple list to check.

    My temple (St. Louis) only keeps cards for 30 days that aren't picked up, so it doesn't take much space.

    If we aren't going to get cards back, it would be nice to have some sort of tracking list print when the cards are printed, but again, if only one ordinance is printed at a time, that increases the cost of paper and ink and storage of all those separate tracking sheets.

    If this is what the First Presidency want us to do, I will adapt and find a way to make the new system work, but I wish I didn't have to!
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    Have ANY of you actually call the temples in questions related to YOUR cards and ask to speak with ordinance secretary. They are more than happy to explain what is expected in their specific temple districts.

    I know what will be with Provo City Center Temple, Bountiful Utah Temple and Salt Lake Temple concerning the cards.

    Don't be afraid to call your respective temples and find out exact how to take care of your cards.

    Be specific about each ordinance steps (baptism and confirmation are combined as one).
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  • Ron Tanner (FamilySearch.org Product Manager) July 17, 2019 16:30
    The following is an updated proposal on a "Completed" Temple list to help with card replacement. I have been discussing this with the teams and we believe we can print the card exactly as it was when it was originally printed - regardless of changes that occurred on the PID post printing. We do save some data now.

    Would this satisfy the needs to have a card available (but not given back at the temple) - instead you print it from your completed list?

    For future we are also looking at recording more information about relationships, the family and more details in the future and can consider, when we do this, to change the "Completed" document to include more information printed on the memento which represents what the "family" looks like at card printing time. If we decide to do this sometime in the future.
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  • All

    Here is another extended idea/though on this matter:

    Please create a complete ordinance format card "download or save as"

    https://getsatisfaction.com/familysea...

    Brett
    • Doesn't your system create a PDF when you print a card?

      Mine does and from Ron's comments above, it appears that we will be able to print a completed card with all the ordinance information and the person's details as they existed at the time the person had their vicarious ordinances reserved.

      When the feature becomes available, then that will likely serve the same purpose as the suggestion in your referenced link.
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  • I have also suggested to family search the other day, when the ordinances are completed for a person, to include in the page of the ordinances an option for us to print or save to the computer the completed ordinances in a card format as the one we print at home and take the cards to the temple to do the work. Several times I had the same situation, where someone merged the person or done something bad in the record where the ordinances for an ancestors was gone. Family search wants proof of the ordinances that were done but i can't give them the cards with the completed ordinances because they are missing. So the alternative is to do the work again when the work was done already for that person. The program is to avoid precisely that "DUPLICATION" of the work. We've come along ways and it is getting better but this feature that i have suggested would eliminate exactly that "DUPLICATION in these situations.I hope that seriously take that in consideration.
    • view 5 more comments
    • Review the "Latest Changes" and see if there were any merges done, take a closer look there. This is how I was able to recover the good ones away from bad ones, even to the point of total undoing the merges until all are separated. Be surprised to fin there are wrong relatives buried deep.
    • Christopher Schmink,

      "Excellent answer! If the temple presidency is not available due to other duties within the temple, I believe the temple recorder could also be of significant help as well with special cases. "

      It's the Recorder's office that does this. I should know because I made special arrangements for few couples coming in from out of state for Salt Lake Temple.
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  • Wallace Ellis Smith,

    That is not accurate about temples not giving back cards.

    I already called them earlier (suggest you read what I said and posted)

    only 6 percent of patrons retrieve the cards promptly. Not 94 percent who left in files.

    They will return the cards while you are there doing the ordinances. They are shutting down the file drawers because the patrons have NOT followed through to complete in timely manner.

    Baptistry has separate scanners and you get them back while you are there.
    Initiatories - they have separate scanners, you get them back while you are there or made advance arrangement for certain number of cards to be done.
    Endowment - they are waiting for you at the table or desk at end of your session to pick them up. Any cards not picked up promptly will be shredded.
    Sealings - they have separate scanners. Make arrangement to retrieve them BEFORE you do sealings.

    Salt Lake Temple has no file system for some years. Still can get cards back while there.

    Be sure to count the cards before going to temple so you know exact how many to get back.
    • view 6 more comments
    • Finally--a comment that makes sense instead of argumentative! Thank you. I've also worked in the temple and found all this to be true.
    • I did talk with the office and I did get my wives cards back after I did the baptisms and confirmations. Thanks
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  • 1
    W. David, be careful about this. Unless a temple is part of the new process, it will be following the same process that it previously used. The Salt Lake Temple is such a temple, so do not think what it does represents what is done in those temples where the cards are not returned.

    The following is as I understand the situation to exist. If I am incorrect, then please let a FamilySearch representative say that I'm incorrect:

    1. There will be no rush to get the completed ordinance cards back to the patrons, which will go a long way to prevent cards from being missed.
    2. All the cards will be (separately) audited which, from what I can determine, will include being scanned a second time.
    3. The patron whose card it is will receive a message through Family Search that the ordinance has been completed. If no such message is received in a day or so, the patron needs to call the temple involved with the information so they can look through the cards, which will be retained by the temple for a period of time before being discarded (a month has been mentioned).
    4. Temple staff will receive additional training with regard to this process.
    5. The decision was made by the General Authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which included the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. And concerns about the process need to be addressed with your local priesthood leaders.
    6. If there are special needs (and one has been brought up), this should be discussed with the temple president by the patron when the new process is already in place. We have been told that the needs will be accommodated in some way.
    • view 1 more comment
    • That disagrees with what we have been told by Ron Tanner and other employees of FamilySearch. I'm sorry, but I do not believe that you have been accurately informed about the process. Or, and I believe this was the case, you called before the process was actually put into place in those Utah County Temples.

      We have been repeatedly told that the problems involve missed card scans and the major purpose is to get the ordinances properly recorded, which involves an audit pass that otherwise is not done if the cards are returned to the patron shortly after the ordinance is completed.

      I accept the information that we've been told, but if I'm wrong, then I want a FamilySearch employee to correct my understanding.
    • W David Samuelsen, I suspect you could visit the 150+ operating temples and get differences as well as similarities in how each one handles these various situations, ~as well as~ differences between who you ask in any one of those temples. Everyone does the best they're able, and sometimes mistakes are made, somebody misses a training meeting in which a change is announced, or misses some of the details, etc. Reading through the entire history of the original question, ~including~ the hidden comments that can be expanded out for visibility, yields a rather good overall picture of a changing process and exactly why the Church wisely starts with a small-scale pilot program in anything significant, perhaps expands it a bit to further check for glitches, errors, etc., and only once they've got all that ironed out they expand it Church-wide. As huge as the Church is, with as many levels of ecclesiastical authority, employees, and people faithfully serving in a selfless volunteer capacity, communication will ~never~ be 100% accurate or complete, "attitudes" will crop up at times, and each one of us will be inconvenienced at times. But in the end, there will almost always be a way of resolving individual issues, and there are appropriate ways of doing that. Asking questions here for understanding is always appropriate, but resolution will always come through proper leadership channels, whether at an individual temple or up through ecclesiastical lines - this isn't the resolution area.
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