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I’m frustrated

Tags not openmeta-compliant

Tags not following standards (or just its own):
Tags appears NOT to write to "used tags" as openmeta does... this creates unnecessary problems if one uses several tagging programs. ironic's way of doing things (openmeta) makes more sense. In another message gravity stated that tags currently does not allow two tags which only differ in capitalization. Unfortunately that creates problems too when one tries to set standards (like all tags uncapitalized) because autocompletion within Tags gets in the way. The tag manager within tags is currently not (yet?) up to the task because it breaks down with a larger number of tags already present in the system. So we have a problem of scaling too. As a registered user of Tags I ask for full implementation of openmeta-code asap. This is even more important as a number of programmers (not just ironic-folks) currently work on the standards for the standard. Note: this refers to backing up of tags as well!!! Please let programs differ on how to use tags (best tags-manager for example), not the underlying code.

Oh and please, do away with this "getting satisfaction" nonsense. The use of this "forum" as a means of communication is a nuisance at best. On this particular issue I prefer not to use a private support-message.

Regards,
Rolf
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  • Yea, I'd like Tags to be fully OpenMeta compatible too.
    I'd like recent tags to show up in all tagging apps, tags be backed up altogether, a fix for the Adobe files losing their tags etc.

    It the Tags developers feel they can do some things better than OpenMeta currently does it then it would benefit everybody if they submitted parts of their code to OpenMeta.
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  • I’m frustrated
    I completely agree with Rolf. As an example of why full OpenMeta integration is needed, I bought Default Folder X to add tags as I save files, but those tags don't show up in Tags. It's really frustrating, please fix it.
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  • I’m wishing people would be nicer about reporting issues…
    Matthew: If you're writing OpenMeta Tags with Default Folder X, Tags will pick them up. Make sure you have "OpenMeta Tags" selected in the DFX dropdown in the Save Dialog.
    I just saved a file and tagged it MatthewAWean with DFX in the Save dialog (a tag I obviously would never have used). I then invoked Tags, started to type Matt and there was the Tag.

    BTW, the problem of a shared Recent Tags store is NOT just Gravity's problem. That being said, I still encourage them to join forces with the OpenMeta group to make this a system everyone can sue with no reverse-engineering on any developers' part.
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  • Well, it looks like it was caused by a particular program. Saving in other programs seems to keep the tags like you said.

    I am forceful in my complaints because it seems to be required. I am much nicer with other companies because I get much better responses than Gravity gives. It's been 10 days with no response from the company. After paying this much for an application this simple, I expect better support.
    • And so far your tactics have failed to produce the desired results. Instead of berating people about issues which you have obviously misjudged (and I quote, "Well, it looks like it was caused by a particular program..." - so do you proffer them an apology?), why don't you do a little more leg work before posting?
      These are indie developers, probably one or two guys, with a tough choice: take time to fix problems with the app or sit here waiting for more people to speak up. Don't make it harder on them, Support is a tough enough gig... and sheesh, you only paid $30 - I guarantee you pay more for your monthly cable bill and I'm sure their service is MUCH worse.
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  • gravity (Official Rep) April 24, 2009 06:43
    Hello,

    Short answer: We are looking into that issue (recent tags) and try to come up with a solution in an upcoming release.

    Long answer: When we released Tags, OpenMeta was not yet available. So we developed our own solution and made decisions on how to implement it. The OpenMeta solution differs in a couple of ways to our solution. At the end we write the same metadata but internally it's different. So it is for example with the handling of Favorites (which is not in OpenMeta yet) and Recent tags.
    Changing that code to OpenMeta will lead to a lot of work and testing which we decided to better spend in developing new features.

    We totally understand that you want the best interoperability and we try to improve that with the next version.

    Thanks!
    • That's totally understandable. I think we all realize that Tags and Open Meta both arrived in the same area from different routes. Tags is a winning recipe though and it's something that I know my mother could use to good effect which isn't saying that your product is a toy but rather you've tapped into masking the complexity of tagging with an easy interface. By riding you guys we're saying "your product is worth something to us and we want to help it get better" . Now go forth and code!
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  • I’m frustrated
    Hi,

    I am not particularly happy with that official answer... Though I have bought Tags I will stop using it if it just sits happily alone on an island... Please check out the discussion at openmeta-google and chime in. What had been at times more difficult has turned into a sober discussion of technicalities, problems and solutions and a collaborative effort to enhance the openmeta approach to tagging with xatr. Even though this is totally up to you I believe Tags would gain... Tags does offer a few things other tagging apps do not (easy email-tagging, global shortcut) but does offer less in other respects (browsing of files with tags interface issues)

    Note: currently the tags-manipulation via Leap 2.xbeta2's all-tags-HUD works much faster solid than Tags Tag Manager in its current implementation (testing on my +7000 tags). While I am looking forward to further installments of Tags I am currently using Leap-beta without any problems.

    Oh and please PLEASE get rid of the "(non-) means of communication" totally inadequately called "getsatisfaction"

    Rolf
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  • I’m frustrated
    Yea, I've had to stop using Tags.
    OpenMeta apps now have a solution that works properly with Adobe files losing tags. This was planned for Tags but I have no idea if/when it would be implemented, & until it does it's useless for me.
    Also OpenMeta has a backup strategy which (as far as I'm aware) Tags doesn't.

    As Rolf says Tags stands on it's own, but I can use all other OM apps (Leap, Tagit, Default Folder X etc. & soon Punakea) together knowing they use exactly the same method.

    It's a shame as the way Tags applies tags is the best method I've come across.
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  • I’m sure we can all play nice
    Gentlemen:
    I understand (and wish for) the collaboration of Gravity Apps with the OpenMeta group but haranguing and veiled threats of abandoning Tags isn't going to solve it. If you read the discussions on the Ironic Software forums you'll see that this isn't about strong-arming anyone into using the system. It's a voluntary project and anyone who wants to be involved is welcome.

    Gravity Applications has independent discovery of the same basic mechanism and has their own code-base that they are familiar with. We need to respect their stance, as it's not driven by a lack of respect for OpenMeta but by their desire to serve their customers as they interpret it. Also, Tags is using kOMUserTags so they are already "cooperating" in that sense. They could be using kGAUserTags or some other such thing!

    I do hope they will eventually join the OpenMeta group as I think they would have some valuable insights into making it even more reliable.

    Jim
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  • I’m --
    Sorry Jim,

    but I am not haranguing (had to look this up) and threatening (though me, for not being a native speaker of English might make it more difficult to be subtle enough in my statements). I am answering as a (simple) user who has paid for Tags.app and as such is supporting the development of Tags.app. I am most clearly not writing in name of ironic, if you thought it necessary to emphasize this. Nevertheless, as a user of Tags I try to influence things and offer opinion and observations.

    Currently not using Tags is not a "veiled threat" but a simple fact and I tried to explain my reasons for this. If development goes further and the usability improves (as well as interaction with other players) I might return. I'd like to point out as well that Jono made a qualified statement too in that he mentioned his particular problem with files written and changed by Adobe apps... Currently we heard for quite a while now that new development's) or Tags.app are coming but so far nothing has been seen and – to me – the way this goes is at least not very transparent . I believe this is partly due to this forum which I think is neither working very well nor particularily nice to use (from a usability point of view). I'd prefer a blog of sorts where one can see frequent statements on how things develop – as well as a steady number of beta_builds I'd most happily test out and send back detailed reports (as I have done in the past).

    So we definitely are playing it nice. I donot know if the people of gravity had a look at the discussion of openmeta at google, I just hope they will and chime in. Mentioning this discussion (as I did in my post) is not in any way suggesting that I am writing in name of ironic or openmeta.

    Rolf
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  • It's all good, Rolf.

    I know it's nice to have more transparency from companies and Ironic is unusual in that they hired me (whether for ill or good - your decision 8^) to help provide that. Gravity may not be in the position (or see any benefit) to doing a similar thing and probably choose to focus on their strength... programming. As much as I don't personally like this venue, GetSatisfaction is providing a simple place to get some feedback (and a general mood?). Not perfect, but better than just email.

    My vantage point is a bit unusual too. I am a User, but I'm also privy to the inner workings of the company and I see the decisions that are sweated over. I know Gravity is doing a great job with Tags (and remember they have other apps requiring their attention - just as we do) and have to weigh all these wants and needs with what's feasible. If a company only had 10 customers, it'd be a lot easier to keep them all happy! ;^)

    The people at Gravity Apps know they are welcome in the OpenMeta initiative. And if the times comes when they knock at the door, we'll tell them to "Come right in."
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  • Veiled threats Jim?
    I've stopped using the app because it doesn't work with the files I work with every day. Where’s the threat?
    Please don’t tell us how conduct ourselves & our comments on software we’ve paid for. Gravity can make their own decisions on which direction they take their apps. But as a paying customer I feel it’s my right to vent my frustration when something doesn’t work as expected.
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  • Jono and Rolf:

    I apologize if I've offended you. You, of course, have every right to state your case, as do I and anyone else coming through here. If Tags doesn't work how you need it to then of course you'd stop using it.

    Now speaking GENERALLY...
    I am just a little surprised and dismayed by the level of "frustration" exhibited in this venue (and not just in this thread). Maybe I have it good on my Forums (OK, I KNOW I have it good 8^) but I think the "(non-) means of communication" is often misinterpreted as cavalier at best and malicious at worst.

    Respectfully,
    Jim
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  • Hi Jim,

    I really prefer to post sober and focus on issues, not on moods. So that is one of the things I dislike about this place here. When posting one gets almost dragged into voicing a feeling/mood. Posts take up a lot of room, seem not to be sorted right, it is difficult to find things. In addition to this in my personal experience response time to user-posts have been slow to be answered by gravity. This is different with their email-based support! But then there are things which I'd like to take up together with others and a public forum is the best place for this. I have been active at many places on the internet as they developed, email-lists, user-forums and this place here feels different and I donot feel "at home". It indeed feels not as proper.

    I am not so sure what you mean with your last paragraph. Do you focus on a lack of transparency or communicating back (for example by gravity)?

    Rolf
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  • I would prefer enhancements to the tag manager in "Tags" (such as grouping tags into categories) over OpenMeta compliance if it's a question of where the developers focus their efforts. OpenMeta is good and I'm sure everyone will get around to conforming to it sooner or later. My concern as a customer is convenience, usability and reliability, and so far the non-compliance with OpenMeta hasn't inhibited me in applying and removing tags with "Tags."

    But if I back-up my files to a DVD (for example only), wipe my hard disk and put the files back after a clean installation of OS X, will a subsequently new installation of Tags pick-up the tags I formerly applied to those files?
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  • Short form: What Rolf Schmolling said (each time)

    Longer form:
    1. Ditch this idiotic Get Satisfaction "community." That would be a cause for satisfaction.

    2. More importantly, support OpenMeta. Fully. Immediately. Stop all other development efforts, save possible bug fixes, until full OpenMeta compatibility is achieved. While ontological diversity is a good thing in most contexts (biodiversity, cultural pluralism, etc.), we Americans live in a competitively binary universe (Coke vs. Pepsi, the home team vs. all others, Democrats vs. Republicans). Other options are, willy-nilly, just noise. I've followed the OpenMeta/no OpenMeta debate with great interest, and cast my lot with OpenMeta: I'm a registered (paid!) user of the Ironic suite, Default Folder X, MailTags (in hopes that its promised transition to OpenMeta goes smoothly); I respect Michael Tsai's and others' reservations. Progress comes from the clash of ideas, passionately expressed. What place has a third scheme presented by Tags? None. That Tags and the OpenMeta apps arrived on the scene at the same time (i.e. that Tags didn't set out to do battle with an already established standard) engenders a measure of wistful sympathy for Gravity but is, in the end, a footnote. That Tags' interface is so very felicitous (and that I've paid for the app!) is cause enough to root for evolution, rather than extinction.
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  • I’m concerned.
    For me the main issue is not so much OpenMeta compliance but minimized hassle.
    Because Tags does not have a method for applying tags during a save, I purchase DFX for that function only. I don't use the defaults functionality. The problem is that DFX does not see the list of existing tags applied by Tags, so I end up inventing new or differently capitalized tags. When Tags reads these, it sees them as separate tags and I end up with duplicates like "bees" and "Bees" which creates problems during a search unless I periodically go through an rename the tags. That's amplified by the fact that DFX remembers its own list of existing tags, so I have to figure out which spelling is in DFX if I don't want the problem to recur.
    I /think/ this would be solved by accessing OpenMeta's list of used tags, but really I don't know much at all about OpenMeta.

    BTW, I'm just fine with GetSatisfaction. No problem by me.
    • gravity (Official Rep) May 25, 2009 13:23
      That's one of the differences between OpenMeta and how we do it. We do not hold a list of previously assigned tags but instead ask the Spotlight system about which tags are currently in use. In our opinion this has a couple of advantages (think about mounting backup disks where old tags are visible immediatly....)

      In order to solve the "mismatch" we either change the whole tag management mechanism in Tags or OpenMeta switches.

      Switching to OpenMeta might seem to be an easy step but at the end there are a number of small and big problems.

      Regarding getsatisfaction: We abandoned to link to getsatisfaction from our website and encourage our users to contact us through email. We are working on a new website and probably will setup a forum.
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  • I completely agree with Tim. It's frustrating to open up Tags to make sure I'm using the right spelling. Is there any way you could continue using your system but read the OpenMeta tag list?
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  • Having read all of the posts above, I still want to urge Gravity to convert to Open Meta. I've played with all of the apps in this area, and I think that Gravity has the best, easiest, most intuitive to use product. I'm hesitant to spend the money for a license, though, if I feel like I will be in any way locked in.
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  • I’m Happy
    Gravity- That's great news. Glad I just bought in. I'll be upgrading as soon as the next paid version comes out. Tags is still the best front end for tagging and searching tags that I've seen.
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  • I’m excited
    Wow! That is fantastic news! Tags is a fine product and many of our Users have been waiting for this to happen. Feel free to come on over to our Google code site and join the discussion.

    Warm Regards,
    Jim
    The Ironic Software Team
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  • I’m happy
    Great news. Really looking forward to the new version.
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  • I’m happy
    How very nice. It takes real generosity of spirit to accede to the popular will, even when persuaded that one's own approach is the superior one. I can't say that I'll purchase Tags now, since I did so when the app was first released, but I'll be one happy user when the new, OpenMeta-complaint version becomes available.
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  • I’m curious
    "We do not hold a list of previously assigned tags but instead ask the Spotlight system about which tags are currently in use."

    Does this coming switch to OpenMeta mean that Tags will now "hold a list of previously assigned tags," and what does this mean for the advantages of using the Spotlight system?
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  • Any rough eta on the new version? (Weeks, months?)
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  • So the beta would be coming pretty soon, right? :)
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