Birth names no longer a useful section of the database?

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I just noticed this article https://www.imdb.com/news/ni62580914 that links to this article https://variety.com/2019/film/actors/imdb-alters-policy-publication-birth-names-1203300451/. I just want a staffer to respond to this news. Is it true that IMDb allows birth names to be completely to be deleted from the database, nowhere to be found? If this is not true, that's good. If this is true, the database has been compromised and IMDb has made a step in the wrong, Orwellian direction.


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Marco

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Posted 1 week ago

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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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And the comments are against IMDb caving in.
Did you notice that!
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Marco

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I hadn't noticed, but I can't say I'm surprised. If a company makes a wrong move, it's only logical that people comment on that.
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Luke Davies

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Ya i just read that too.. I thought Imdb’s whole cornerstone was the fact that they never delete valid information.. like these 2 articles even state:


https://help.imdb.com/article/contrib...#


And


https://help.imdb.com/article/contrib...#


What the hell happened?
(Edited)
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Marco

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What the hell happened?

I sure hope a staffer will respond to this question.
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Luke Davies

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Imdb keeping all valid info permanently is one of the main reasons why I love this website so much..
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Peter, Champion

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The answer is in the article, no?
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Luke Davies

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What do you mean??
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Peter, Champion

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You ask what happened, and the article in the first post explains the background.
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Luke Davies

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My only worry is what will this end up leading to..
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Princess Perky Pants

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"Valid info" ??!  WTF do you knowing someones dead name?  You are here to look up movies, what you want is one of those investigation sites so you can dox people and harass them. 
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Marco

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"Valid info" ??!

Yes, valid info. This is a database. It stores data. In this particular case, about, among other things, people who worked on movies, series and video games. Someone's name as well as someone's birth name is data. It is stored in a database.

WTF do you knowing someones dead name?

I think that for literally 99 per cent of all famous people, it's easy to find out their birth names. So knowing the birth name of someone in this database is not that weird.

You are here to look up movies

Among other things. People are also here to look up actors, or directors, or simply people with whom they share a birthday. As founder and current CEO of IMDb, Col Needham, once said "IMDb means different things to different people."

what you want is one of those investigation sites so you can dox people and harass them.

If you are actually accusing people on this board of wanting to dox or harass people, you are way out of line and I feel you should take it back and apologize.
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Marco

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(if someone knows how to delete duplicated posts, I'm all ears)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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You cannot once a like has posted or a reply is made.
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Marco

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Thanks Ed, for clearing that up.
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MikeTheWhistle

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What's interesting, to me, is that the way the policy is written will apply to all birth names, not just transgender ones.

I'm not in the business, but is this something of concern across the industry like birth dates?  I can think of a whole list of security reasons why it might be the case, but just don't know.
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Luke Davies

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What about other factual information regarding films, tv shows or video games though? Will all that remain on imdb permanently?
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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Luke Davies, it most certainly will. It is evident that birth names are a notable exception and partial, at that.
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Princess Perky Pants

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This is a fricken  fan movie site, not the FBI  Luke. 
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Marco

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This is a fricken  fan movie site,

Well, partly, but more that a fan movie site, IMDb is a database (guess what the Db in the name IMDb stand for :) ) about films, tv series and video games and the people who worked on them. Obviously, such a database will draw a lot of fans of a lot of movies, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a database.

not the FBI  Luke.

You do realize that lots of internet sites mention birth names of well-known people don't you?

(Edited)
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Kati Knitt

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I'm with Perky Pants, IMDb has been way too bureaucratic about this very sensitive issue for way too long.
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Kati Knitt

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You can't put that over the well being of marginalized people.
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Marco

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You can't put that over the well being of marginalized people.

A database is neutral. It doesn't judge. It doesn't give one group of people an advantage or a disadvantage. It doesn't have an opinion about the people it lists, be they marginalized or not.
A database does not marginalize people. Other people do that. And that is terrible and should be stopped. But not allowing people to talk and know about FACTS is always the wrong answer, no matter what the question is.
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Kati Knitt

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Deadnames are used to hurt people. IMDb is providing deadnames. IMDb is hurting trans people.
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Marco

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Birth names can be used to hurt people, but stating that birth names are always used to hurt people is just nonsense and I think you know that. IMDb doesn't use birth names to hurt people. Other people might use these names to hurt people, but that can't and shouldn't be blamed on an impartial database, it should be blamed on the people who willingly hurt other people.
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Marco

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Birth names can be used to hurt people, but stating that birth names are always used to hurt people is just nonsense and I think you know that. IMDb doesn't use birth names to hurt people. Other people might use these names to hurt people, but that can't and shouldn't be blamed on an impartial database, it should be blamed on the people who willingly hurt other people.
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Eboy

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It’s good to read this part from the Variety article:

”The IMDb spokesperson also said for birth name removal requests pertaining to titles in which a person was credited on-screen as their birth name, their credited name will remain listed in the credits section of applicable IMDb name and title pages in parentheses.”
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Luke Davies

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What does that mean? That their original name will still appear?
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Kelly L.

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If I understand correctly:

If someone was credited under their birth (or other former) name, then the credited name will still appear for credit identification purposes along with the current name (but the birth name will not appear in the biography section if requested).

If someone was not ever credited under their birth name, and all of the other conditions apply, then you won't see the birth name anymore.
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Luke Davies

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Ya because Imdb stress that on-screen credits are what matter

But they also state that will go forth and erase ALL birth names of those who have changed their names for whatever reason..
(Edited)
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Luke Davies

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My big question is: with this new policy revision..

Are the rules in these 3 following articles still permanent

https://help.imdb.com/article/contrib...#

And

https://help.imdb.com/article/contrib...#

And

https://help.imdb.com/article/contrib...#
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Marco

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Are the rules in these 3 following articles still permanent

The way I understand all this bad news, is that the content of the first two articles needs an update and is currently incorrect.
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Luke Davies

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But the 3rd remains unaffected because it just has to do with film titles, tv show titles and video game titles, not their individual credits?
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Marco

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I think so, yes.
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Luke Davies

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This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled New imdb policy on birth names.

Because of this new policy on removing birth names

https://variety.com/2019/film/actors/...

Imdb will still keep all factual film titles, tv shows and video game titles permanently? Correct?
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Luke Davies

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The way I see it is, if IMDb caves for this.. soon other people in the industry will request removals of other valid information, then pretty much anyone will be able to remove whatever they want.. this new policy completely defeats the purpose of building a database.. it’s supposed to build and keep a permanent catalog of all things for film, tv shows and video games.. that’s its purpose
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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Wow, Facebook comments on this article appearing on IMDb are a tsunami of people overreacting and being unnecessary rude...  
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Nikolay, sentiment in America by your everyday American has been against very small special interest groups having their way at all, in the enactment of laws (Government) and policy changes (Private Sector) by way of Bully Tactics. If you will have noticed only Kelli and two others came here and kicked the hornets nest on this very subject. I am part of the majority, yet my voice is not to be considered in any fashion. Only the minority rules. When this happens, you get a lot of rude and angry people on facebook. They are outraged at IMDb. While IMDb catered to a very small segment of the population and caved in on this fearing a loss of income if they did not, it will most likely have that loss of income from the backlash of the Majority. And probably lose more than they feared losing by implementing this policy change.

Bad Call on IMDb's part.
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Luke Davies

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Ya.. very bad call..
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Luke Davies

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Being rude about is extremely unnecessary for sure.. my only concern is that hoping this nee policy doesn’t compromise the database where everyone will soon request removals..
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Luke Davies

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This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Question about the new policy.

Can a staff member please confirm this: So to be absolutely clear, will this new policy regarding name changes, will it affect film titles, tv shows and video game staying on imdb permanently? Film titles, tv shows and video games staying on imdb for good will never change, correct?
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Giancarlo Cairella, Official Rep

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Thank you for sharing your concerns about our new policy

As documented on the site, we will now review requests to remove a birth name from a person's biographical details if the birth name is not broadly publicly known (i.e. it's not already widely recognized and available elsewhere through sources such as major reference sites or publications) and if the person no longer voluntarily uses it (i.e. only uses their birth name when compelled to do so by government/legal requirements, but not in other aspects of their daily or professional life).



Names listed in filmography credits for titles in which the person was credited under their birth name will continue to be displayed. This is in order to continue providing IMDb’s hundreds of millions of customers worldwide with comprehensive information about film and TV credits, thereby preserving the factual historical record by accurately reflecting what is listed on-screen.


(Edited)
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Princess Perky Pants

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Dear Giancarlo Cairella, Official Rep
They are  transsexual . REMOVE THE DEAD NAMING YOU HAVE PLAGUED THEM  WITH FOR 15 YEARS. You have been the single source of harassment for transgender community because no other site does what you do . I hope Glaad continues the lawsuit because CLEARLY you have not learned a thing Economically you have caused massive discrimination against them .

"if the person no longer voluntarily uses it "

Is this as joke? Whether they have to use it for any reason is none of your business. There are legal issues that are none of your damn business.

"in order to continue providing IMDb’s hundreds of millions of customers worldwide with comprehensive information"

That is the biggest joke of all. You are a fan site and you use IMDB Pro to extort money out of people simply to control their own data. No person should have argue that they have changed their name  then watch you pull out those old names to abuse them with like it is some kind of "pure data collection".

"hereby preserving the factual historical record "

That is utter BS. Laverne Cox being Laverne Cox on previous films  does not alter the films credits. You do not create  or alter credits, you track them. Laverne Cox does not become a different person. It is an absurd argument. Historical record. For what  when NY falls and we become the Planet if the Apes?
(Edited)
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Princess Perky Pants

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Marco

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As documented on the site, we will now review requests to remove a birth name from a person's biographical details if the birth name is not broadly publicly known (i.e. it's not already widely recognized and available elsewhere through sources such as major reference sites or publications) and if the person no longer voluntarily uses it (i.e. only uses their birth name when compelled to do so by government/legal requirements, but not in other aspects of their daily or professional life).


So what you're saying is that birth names can be removed, even if they're factual?
Doesn't that go against the fundamental concept of a database? Isn't IMDb undermining IMDb here?
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Marco

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They are  transsexual .

Maybe I missed something, but I don't believe anybody said they aren't.

REMOVE THE DEAD NAMING YOU HAVE PLAGUED THEM  WITH FOR 15 FKING YEARS.

Shouting and cursing is rather unbecoming.

You have been the single source of harassment for transgender community

You have quite some nerve accusing a database that publishes data of harassment. If you don't want a database stating facts, I genuinely feel sorry for you.

Is this as joke?

That's what I thought when I first heard about this ridiculous policy change, but for a totally different reason.


That is the biggest joke of all.

Are you saying that you know what it is all these hundreds of millions of people look up while they're on IMDb?

You are a fan site

Database.

you use IMDB Pro to extort money out of people simply to control their own data.

You don't have to use IMDbPro you know. If you deserve an IMDb name page, you will get one. And on regular IMDb, your name and some information about you will be visible, whether or not you have IMDbPro doesn't change that.

to abuse them

Why do you consider it abuse that a database stores birth names of the people in the database? There's no shame in one's birth name. It's the name one is given around the time of their birth, nothing more, nothing less. There is no abuse in stating the fact of one's birth name, and especially not for a database.
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J.

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I'm in favor of IMDb allowing workaday non-celebrity actors and crew to remove personal information, such as birth names and ages, from the database. Anyone can make a YouTube video and put in on IMDb. What's to stop someone from thanking an enemy in his YouTube video, which allows him to create an IMDb name page for the guy, and put out his personal information?

But IMDb is only allowing the removal of one kind of personal information. And they're doing it because they caved in to a pressure group. I'm against caving in to pressure groups.

I hope IMDb notices that they gained NOTHING through this decision. One of the pressure groups is already calling the decision "a half-measure." The more they cave in, the more the pressure groups will demand more caving.
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Luke Davies

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That’s exactly what I’m afraid of
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Emma Arpin

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IMDb gets used as a resume in the entertainment industry, and the previous policy assisted discrimination of trans people in the industry. Lots of people who are "workaday non-celebrity actors and crew" were negatively affected by IMDb's previous policy. Also, IMDb assisted in discrimination, and to an extent still does, of people who work additional jobs outside of the entertainment industry as "workaday non-celebrities," along with other issues such as housing discrimination.
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J.

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My position is that IMDb should allow workaday non-celebrity actors and crew to remove personal information from the database if it did not appear in film credits.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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What if it was a news article in the Hollywood Reporter about that work-a-day actor. And what IS the definition of celebrity. If one person celebrates your existence, then you are celebrated. I was a minor celebrity in Drag Racing and in the Nightclub Industry in Denver in the 80's and 90's. I have signed a whole whopping 5 autographs on racing programs. So in reality celebrity is interpreted by an individual and not to be defined by an arbitrary policy.
(Edited)
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Princess Perky Pants

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Ok, like I have logic?  You mean logical people aren't allowed here ? ?????
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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Emma Arpin, just my five cents but I always thought of IMDb being used as a resume as a side effect. It was and is, first and foremost, a database. So from my point of view the process is a bit similar to, say, taking a dictionary or encyclopedia, or an archive and replacing all the legit info with resumes, with no discretion as to whether those are correct or not. It happened before you know. It, with people like Quentin Tarantino falsely putting credits/roles in Dawn of the Dead (1978) and King Lear (1987) on his resume, knowing they would be a hard thing to verify. They then ended up being on  Leonard Maltin's Movie and Video Guide and are still surface from time to time as a false fact. That is exactly what happens when people mostly treat databases and encyclopedias as promotional instruments. 
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Eboy

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I'm a strong supporter of (film/TV/video games) cast & crew credits, trivia and all the other info related to actual filmmaking process. People should recognize the historical value of IMDb, it's already huge. IMDb is not a CV or resume service (altough, as said many times before, people can of course use the site for that) and it shouldn't be controlled by agents, PR people, "Hollywood" executives or any "pressure groups" (all this generally speaking - there are total professionals in every area).

But sure, I can see the various problems related to information such as birth dates, residence, the names of a spouse and children, info of ex-wives-husbands/girl-boyfriends, divorces, criminal record issues (since now even an accusation seems to be enough - people want to add that to trivia or to biography), etc. Also "biography" is one of those areas where problems can arise quite easily. I personally feel that there's a difference between "biography" and "professional biography" and I support the latter.

I don't have any real answers, however, and I'm not sure that is this decision a good or bad thing for IMDb (maybe a bit of both?). But I do understand some issues behind it. Internet is a pretty nasty and dark place, especially nowadays. IMDb shouldn't give any additional "tools" for abuse. At least they should be very cautious with biography/trivia/etc information that is considered more "personal" than "professional" (there's a very fine line sometimes, but it's often there).
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MikeTheWhistle

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Your comment that "IMDb is not a CV or resume service" is wrong because of imdbpro. What's funny is I almost was going to comment yesterday regarding that the only reason this occurred is because imdb now gets paid by some. If it didn't, I bet the names would be there forever. Not saying if that's right or wrong, just the way it is.
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Eboy

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It’s not really wrong, since IMDB and IMDbPro are two different things. The latter is a paid service with certain benefits. It’s always best to talk about ”IMDbPro” if you refer to that service.
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Emma Arpin

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IMDbPro pulls from the same database.
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Princess Perky Pants

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Eboy  They are EXACTLY the same thing. IMDB PRO just allows pictures and self editing. Linkedin has since taken over as IMDB is intractable. There you edit your own work without nerds screaming  about missing details. 
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Luke Davies

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Hopefully a staffer can come in and answer this question but now because of this new policy, will these following articles be updated or will they remain the same?

https://help.imdb.com/article/contrib...#

https://help.imdb.com/article/contrib...#

https://help.imdb.com/article/contrib...#
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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OH........ THE SHAME OF IT ALL

Image result for augie doggie oh the shame of it all
(Edited)
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Luke Davies

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What?
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Yep, The Answer is Contained within the Topic!
They Will Not Reply!
Typing Is Futile!
We Will Be Assimilated!
A .5% of the population has made us Comply!
We are Borg!
(Edited)
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Luke Davies

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Ok ok ok..
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Luke Davies

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I read in another thread that iMDb is already in the middle of some california litigation to possibly remove ages too?
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gromit82, Champion

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Yes, but so far IMDb has been successful in that case. The State of California passed a law which would have required IMDb to remove birthdates in some cases. IMDb sued to have the law declared unconstitutional, and the district court found in favor of IMDb.

The case is on appeal, though. There will be a hearing in the Court of Appeals next month.

In case you are looking for more information about that case, it is called IMDb.com, Inc. v. Becerra.
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Luke Davies

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Ok so now there might be another thing that people can request to be removed, if imdb does not win this case.. uugh jesus, what next?
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Princess Perky Pants

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Luke, you can LEGALLY change your name and gender, you cannot LEGALLY change your age.  
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Luke Davies

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My big question is will this lead to people requesting to remove movies, or tv shows or video games? Will imdb then have to comply with them?
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Luke Davies

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That is my greatest concern..
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J.

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Ideologues are already requesting - no, demanding - that certain movies, TV shows and video games be removed from IMDb for political reasons. The question is not whether the demands will be made, the question is whether IMDb will cave in to them.
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Luke Davies

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Exactly.. at that point, what use is a database if all you’re gonna do is remove information from it? You cannot be the Internet’s most comprehensive database about movies if you end up removing data..
(Edited)
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Emma Arpin

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Deadnaming people—and in the case of this specific policy change people who were not widely known to the public by their deadname—does not add to a movie database. However, it does assist discrimination against trans people in employment, housing, etc.
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Luke Davies

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Look, as long as people don’t start removing films, tv, or video games.. then fine i guess
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Oh that part was when I was a Man or Woman and has my dead name.
I WANT IT REMOVED. Wah Wah it hurts me.
You wait
The Inch has been given.
The Mile comes next!
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Princess Perky Pants

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Luke, this is not about politics, it is about discrimination. You are talking about the trivial facts about  fantasy. No one lives or dies when names are changed, real people die, go homeless loss jobs and family when they aren't
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Princess Perky Pants

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Ed Jones (XLIX) you know you are an idiot right? You know that when you walk into a room  that people start whispering because they know who you are. You live on this forum. It is your life. You don't have one otherwise. The people you are talking about with your powerless voice do . 15,000 posts, unf***kingbelievable.  Get out, meet a girl or guy, get a life. 
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MikeTheWhistle

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Wow. talk about making it personal.
And what does this sentence me PPP?
"You are talking about the trivial facts about  fantasy."
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Princess Perky Pants

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"Ideologues are already requesting - no, demanding - that certain movies, TV shows and video games be removed" 
J.  You know the difference between real people and movies right ? You seem to be blurring the line.
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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PPP
GFOYSC
Cheers
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Princess Perky Pants

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MikeTheWhistle "And what does this sentence me PPP?" 

When your translator gets here......
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Princess Perky Pants

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How cute, you have your own language. Developed over a lifetime living on this forum no doubt. 
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Southie Slang.
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MikeTheWhistle

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LOL. You really seem to be taking this very personally when to the best of my recollection of what I've seen that's not been the angle.
So somebody taking the position that true info should be kept is a bad person to be attacked personally.  All at the same time you argue that keeping accurate info is de facto attacking someone.
And criticizing someone personally by their # of posts which you've had 10 posts in one day would mean that you're living on here.

And then to top it all off you pull out the race card to try and shame someone. Be proud of your position, be respectful, and quit trying to drag the argument into the muck.
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Luke Davies

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As i said.. my only issue is what this could lead to.. people requesting to take down their names.. then their ages, what happens when people start demanding their films, tv shows or video games be taken down??
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Luke Davies

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As i said.. my only issue is what this could lead to.. people requesting to take down their names.. then their ages, what happens when people start demanding their films, tv shows or video games be taken down??
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MikeTheWhistle

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What happened to posts disappearing??? Very odd.
And PPP you are ignoring my question about the sentence I didn't understand because it looked like it got clipped. I'm trying to listen to your argument, but you aren't making it easy.
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MikeTheWhistle

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What happened to posts disappearing??? Very odd.
And PPP you are ignoring my question about the sentence I didn't understand because it looked like it got clipped. I'm trying to listen to your argument, but you aren't making it easy.
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Princess Perky Pants

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"LOL. You really seem to be taking this very personally" 

No, Im just not an asshole. 

"So somebody taking the position that true info should be kept is a bad person to be attacked personally."

No, don't try and conflate being an asshole with keeping a proper data base. That isn't what he was  doing bigot, he was enjoying the suffering these people feel.He should be kicked from this forum. 
(Edited)
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MikeTheWhistle

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I've not expressed any opinion regarding this new policy because I don't understand all the angles of it. (Until yesterday I had never heard of the term deadnaming).
So thx for calling me an asshole. Been awhile that I've had a teen throwing names at me and it's just as funny now as it was then.  All you're doing is prove my point that you're taking this personally which destroys your ability to make any good argument.
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Princess Perky Pants

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"And criticizing someone personally by their # of posts which you've had 10 posts in one day would mean that you're living on here."

I've been here for an hour......... not 100,000 hours. 
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Princess Perky Pants

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"And criticizing someone personally by their # of posts which you've had 10 posts in one day would mean that you're living on here."

I've been here for an hour......... not 100,000 hours. 
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Princess Perky Pants

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MikeTheWhistle I never called you one, I said Im not one. 
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MikeTheWhistle

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My bad. Sorry 15 posts in 60 minutes. That's not overkill. LOL
So in less than an hour you started calling me curse names and going to the lowest denominator of using race baiting.
I was in the navy, attached to marines, so trust me I've been called everything in the book and it doesn't bother me in the least.
I'll at least say this, Ed can be sharp-tongued, but don't recall him calling people names.

But if it makes you feel better PPP, go ahead and call me names. I can tell this is a very personal, troubling issue for you for which I'm sorry for you. I'd really like to understand the angles as it's not something I'm familiar with. I've only known one person who was trans and that was about 20 years ago.  She was a friend and a fellow vet, and times or people were different because none of us cared. So it's something I'm ignorant about, but would like to understand.  So try and make a cogent, non-personal counter-argument vs saying someone is a curse word, bad person, or a bigot.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Spoken like a true under-educated "I"
100,000 equals 11 years and appox 5 months. That's based on a 24 hour day.
I own a business. I'm semi retired. I unlike you can multitask. I help people. You complain and are here to accomplish what? You have no agenda other that to agitate.
You are failing to do one thing correctly.
You have used crude language. You have demonstrated what our modern academia churns out. Every post you make embarrasses you and no one else. You are not capable of slinging an arrow in anyone's direction with anything that resembles a coherent well formed thought. Your 100,000 hours blunder is proof of your incapability to speak with any authority that commands any respect.
(Edited)
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Princess Perky Pants

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"My bad. Sorry 15 posts in 60 minutes. That's not overkill. LOL"

No, actually. 

"So in less than an hour you started calling me curse names"

That is a lie. 

"race baiting. "

Ohh a Trumpster. I merely demonstrated that you were using the same argument as bigots. 

"I've only known one person who was trans and that was about 20 years ago."

There it goes, I have a friend who was trans. 

" So try and make a cogent, non-personal counter-argument "

I've made the argument why you and yours are unqualified to decide.. Might want to look at one of those 15 posts in 60 minutes. 
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Kati Knitt

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Can confirm that Ed Jones really enjoys transphobia.
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Princess Perky Pants

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" I unlike you can multitask. "

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

"You have used crude language"

No, I choose to. 

". You are not capable of slinging an arrow in anyone's direction"


LOL! Sir, this is a case of pure projection. 


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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Absolutely hilarious. I could not write a character so unaware if i tried. Thanks for the inspiration. Will have a character based on you in a short shortly!
Keep on writing! It's Reese Witherspoonishnesly awesome!
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Kati Knitt

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Get your ----- Oscar man, I bet it'll floor audiences
(Edited)
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MikeTheWhistle

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Would you rather me make up having a dozen trans friends?? Again you're just attacking someone. And PPP I've only seen one post where you've tried to make any argument, but you started it off with cursing. And deny it all you want, your post did call me a name.
Frankly this isn't an issue that impacts me regardless. My friend committed suicide but it had nothing to do with being trans but instead with ptsd. But I should also say that I may have met other people that were trans but didn't know.  It's not something I care about. Kind of like someone saying they're taking a particular point of view and being nasty from the start. It makes me care much less about their position. Thus far I've not seen anything that is persuasive that the actual names in credits shouldn't be listed.

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Marco

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Cursing is rather unbecoming Kati.
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Marco

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Cursing is rather unbecoming Kati.
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Princess Perky Pants

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" I could not write a character " 

Why you are here and not working. 

"Will have a character based on you in a short shortly! "

No, you won't. You might try but it will be Ed Wood.  Let me describe my character. 40 years in the business, supervisor, member of the Academy, negotiated with unions. 26 features, worked in Europe  and every major in the US and Canada. Bow go write it Hemingway. 
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Kati Knitt

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Inspirational!
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Marco. I came to the conclusion long ago that Kati can't help "Themself".
They provides great entertainment. I just replied to see what They would say next.
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Kati Knitt

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Misgendering, that's a new one.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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No, you won't. You might try but it will be Ed Wood.  Let me describe my character. 40 years in the business, supervisor, member of the Academy, negotiated with unions. 26 features, worked in Europe  and every major in the US and Canada. Bow go write it Hemingway.

And hiding behind a pseudonym. And your real name is PPP?

(Edited)
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Princess Perky Pants

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"Would you rather me make up having a dozen trans friends??|

Making up one was enough. 

" And deny it all you want, your post did call me a name."

Now its just a name.  

"Frankly this isn't an issue that impacts me regardless." 

UHUH ! Wait for it....

"My friend committed suicide but it had nothing to do with being trans but instead with ptsd."

Well Dr Freud, so you KNOW it had nothing to do with her being trans, just PTSD. Excuse me if your assessment of a transgender persons motivations for suicide are  laughable. So 20 years ago when people  and the government were openly discrimination against trans people you somehow convinced yourself her suicide  had NOTHING TO DO WITH BRING TRANSGENDER!  You are a piece of work. 

Discussion over. 

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Princess Perky Pants

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Kati Knitt She and Patti LuPone are my heroes . Worked with Helen. 
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MikeTheWhistle

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PPP/snowflake,
I didn't see this until now, and was going to ignore it, but just for the record she left a note.  She had served in Vietnam and was haunted by what someone who has been in a war is haunted by. I know you know nothing of this because none of your comments reflect anything indicative you ever served, but that was your choice as was mine, my friend's, and many others who choose to serve so you could voice opinions.
As to the trans issue impacting the suicide, I guess I choose to assume that being in war had nothing related to her trans gender because if it did, then the whole concept of trans would be blown up because it's supposed to be about something more fundamental than just a tragic issue.
So again you fail to speak with anything inteligent, and no matter what name you choose to be here as, you fail to make any persuasive arguments as to the actual harm done to anyone is.
In fact I found a blog that gave me the best argument related to removing birth names and it's based on that unlike a stage name, someone who is trans it's not a stage name but a more fundamental name change as it's associated with a sexual identity change. Now that argument alone doesn't convince me that imdb should change it's policy, but it's a good argument and start.
See unlike you, I like to be informed and persuaded before making a decision.
And again I'm going to ignore you, although I wish I could just block you.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Tom? Where are you? You are here for this specific reason.
Waiting for your reaction to the Princesses abusive diatribe.
The last instance took 6 hours.
Faster than staff, but too slow in real time. We need three Toms!
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Princess Perky Pants

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For 15,000 posts you should get instant service. You should have an award. A light for your basement . 
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MikeTheWhistle

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There you go again making it personal. Not sure how old you are, but if you ever had classes in debate you'd know that isn't the way to win your argument. It only alienates people to your point of view. You've not convinced me of anything except to raise your point of view to a higher bar.
(Edited)
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Kati Knitt

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convinced me, but I'm biased
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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I'm not High Bar
I'm Lowbar
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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No Basement a dungeon!
No Dragons
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Princess Perky Pants

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MikeTheWhistle you seem to think you are the "decider".  That I NEEEEED to convince you. I don't. The lawsuit finally convinced Bezos. Didn't have to ask your opinion at all did we? Take your bar.... and shove it. 
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MikeTheWhistle

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There you go again being nasty.
And I wasn't aware there was any lawsuit over this issue.
As to my opinion, you had stated that I expressed an opinion which I had not until all this garbage you've slung which makes me believe that the counter-argument that the names on titles should be kept is appropriate if you can't make a cogent argument.
I'm done in this banter with you. I feel sorry for you that this is the way you act. It's just sad and if this is how you try to persuade people I hope that if there is a court case you're not called as a witness because you will lose the jury who's opinion does matter.
I wish you the best and hope that you can get some help for your situation.

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Princess Perky Pants

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" if this is how you try to persuade people"

I AM NOT TRYING TO PERSUADE YOU! I HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN FROM PERSUADING YOU OR ANY OTHER PREJUDICE PERSON ON THIS FORUM! !  You aren't a jury, you decide nothing. You just purvey your common ignorance to other ignorant people who validate your ignorance.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBvIweCIgwk
(Edited)
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Emma Arpin

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People are upset because the issue is quite personal for a lot of people, MikeTheWhistle.

Yes, this is a small step toward fixing the problem. However, listing deadnames in previous credits brings up all sorts of problems, including young people who made projects in their teens with friends before they were working professionally. They would be followed by their deadname and face discrimination in the industry, side jobs, and housing. IMDb significantly lowered the bar for what qualifies for listings some years ago, around when they still ran the now failed Withoutabox.

There are other fixes, including using the most recent credit, not the first credit, which would allow the database to stay accurate, in fact more accurate.
(Edited)
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Marco

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However, listing deadnames in previous credits brings up all sorts of problems

So after this, there are more facts you feel should be removed from the database. And after that, perhaps you feel people should be able to remove their date of birth? Or do you feel that I Am Not Your Negro () should be called I Am Not Your N-word? You can't have a proper functioning database and at the same time please every group of people who - for whatever reasons, some of them perhaps even rather understandable - wants to delete information from that database. You have to choose, you can't have both.
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Marco

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However, listing deadnames in previous credits brings up all sorts of problems

So after this, there are more facts you feel should be removed from the database. And after that, perhaps you feel people should be able to remove their date of birth? Or do you feel that I Am Not Your Negro () should be called I Am Not Your N-word? You can't have a proper functioning database and at the same time please every group of people who - for whatever reasons, some of them perhaps even rather understandable - wants to delete information from that database. You have to choose, you can't have both.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Back to Bellevue

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Kati Knitt

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Cranky because you're transphobic?
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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As usual you are calling people names.
Missing you.
Always love the joy and laughs you bring
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Yep, there are the few that try to debate an issue, and when they can't win the argument they go make a post and call it harassment or cyberbullying.

Puh-leese
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Hey Kati.
You only came here to gloat at your victory.
You need not have come here at all.
You could have remained silent.
You came here for one purpose.
You saw me replying and could not resist harassing me.
Well you got a couple of others here that don't like this idea of the far left in this country bullying corporations. Especially a very small fringe of the population mind you.
That you were not counting on. Were you.
I shall no longer reply.
You have become repetitive and petty.
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Princess Perky Pants

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Busy boy.
"Ed Jones (XLIX) has unrelentingly cyberbullied me into trying to stop an investigation
I have been the victim of an unrelenting attack of ridicule and harassment and belittling to try and stop me investigating a company registered with IMDb." 
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Kati, the Princess has been suspended.
Your rhetoric I believed emboldened the Princesses behavior. She no longer has a voice here because she assumed that your bad behavior and usage of colorful metaphors was acceptable.
You are responsible.
You should apologize publicly to her and to anyone else here you have insulted with your name calling and unfounded accusations.
(Edited)
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ACT_1

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? ?

Princess Perky Pants
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Princess Perky Pants's profile
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Mrs Potato
Joined community on August 15, 2019
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Mrs Potato :
I like how this forum is censored.
.


(Edited)
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Marco

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Snowflake, Kati (and even Princess Perky Pants): You guys just keep on being disrespectful without adding any new information or points of view. I think there are quite some issues you all have to work out for yourselves, away from this forum. I won't respond to any more of your posts because I don't see the point in it, but I really do hope that in real life you are not so extremely bitter as you seem to be on this forum.
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ACT_1

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Mrs Potato
Joined community on August 15, 2019
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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This is Proof Positive that IMDb should not have made this change at all.
Accommodating .6% of the population has now caused a false belief that 4 or 5 people can effect change. IMDb needs to reverse their decision on this and stick to their longstanding policy

IMDb aims to be the most comprehensive and reliable source of information on movies, TV and celebrities. We are committed to accuracy and it is our longstanding policy not to alter or remove correct factual information from our records.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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No you have used the WRONG word.
It is NOT MAJORITY
It was the MONARCHY
How smart can you be if you don't know your own history.
Get your facts right.
You are not debating a knuckle dragging Hillbilly!
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Wikipedia is INACCURATE.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Also this not a democracy.
It is a business entity.
You have ZERO SAY in how any business is run.
And the same exact argument can be used in Minority Rule too.
Or does that not make logical sense to you.
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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And another lesson. The US IS NOT a Democracy. It is a Democratic Republic.
Get your facts straight again!
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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1. Majority-rule maximizes self-determination

Self-determination refers to the ability to govern oneself and have one’s freedoms curtailed only through the laws that one consents to. It is arguably a good thing, since it maximizes personal autonomy in a society of conflicting interests. Majority-rule ensures that in any such clash of interests, more people ‘get their way’ than people who do not. This in turn increases the overall welfare of society.

On the contrary, it may be argued that counter-majoritarian solutions necessarily cheats a community of its sense of common adventure.

2. Majority-rule is likely to provide middle ground solutions

According to Anthony Downs’ Median Voter Theory, political preferences tend to be distributed over a single peaked ‘bell’ curve; the median voter will therefore be pivotal in securing a majority. Hence, majority-rule will tend to create middle ground solutions, which is arguably better than ‘radical’ outcomes.

3. Majority-rule is more likely than not to produce the ‘right’ answer to political questions

Based on Condorcet’s jury theorem, by applying the law of large numbers, if there are right answers to political questions, voters are more likely than not to identify them. This is because, while there will always be many people who will ‘get it wrong’, over the large number of decision-makers, more likely than not, people will get it right. For example, rarely do radical and destructive political systems arise out of majority rule. Yet, history is full of examples of oppressive regimes arising out of dictatorships.

4. Majority-rule is just

Majority-rule treats everyone equally. Allowing minorities to succeed would mean treating each of their votes as carrying more weight than members of the majority. This is wrong, since it fails to accord to the majority the equal respect they deserve as citizens in a political community.

 

The case against majority-rule

1. Majority-rule does not necessarily protect minority rights

The idea behind rights is that there are certain interests that we consider ‘overriding demands’. These are attributed to individuals in a society out of respect for their position as citizens, and their status as human beings. These rights are a constraint on society’s use of political power. However, majority-rule can deprive minorities of these rights. Take for example, the right to vote being denied to African-Americans for most of the USA’s history.

Hence, the argument that majority rule is just because it treats everyone equally falls apart when we observe the way permanent minorities can, and have been treated, such that they are stripped of their rights and denied a say in the laws they live under.

2. Majority-rule does not necessarily maximize self-determination or welfare

This is because of what is called the “secession paradox”. Majoritarian decision making presupposes the existence of a political unit, but says nothing about why that unit should be defined in any particular way. If 40% of a population constantly lives under laws they do not like, it is wrong to say that self-determination is maximized because 60% get their way. Instead, self-determination is maximized if the two groups separated, such that everybody would live under laws of their choosing. Whenever there is conflict, this can keep happening, up to the point where the benefits of co-operating with people one disagrees with outweighs the benefits of sovereignty.

In any case, it is argued that more people getting their way does not necessarily need to maximum welfare. Imagine that out of 10 people, 6 of them gain 1 unit of happiness if policy A was chosen, while the remaining 4 gain 10 units of happiness if policy A was not chosen. If welfare maximization is our goal, policy A should not be chosen. Yet, majority-rule says it should.

3. Majority-rule leads to disproportionate outcomes

Imagine two groups of people: economizers and conservationists. The former favours relentless economic growth while the latter favours environmental conservation. Economizers constitute 3/4 of the population, and conservationists constitute the remaining 1/4. Imagine there are 4 policy decisions of equal weight to be made; surely it is disproportionate that the economizers get their way on all 4 occasions. The proportionate outcome should be the economizers having their way only 3/4 of the time, or that each policy decision go only 3/4 of the way. Either solution is preferable to the winner-takes-all solution that majority-rule leads to.

4. Majority-rule reduces deliberation and compromise

A healthy majority has no incentive to accommodate, engage or convince permanent minorities, since they have the numbers to win every election. Deliberation and engagement is good, since it fosters sincere political discussions about important issues and leads to better policies. This is because, the practice of presenting reasons in the process of engagement and deliberation increases the likelihood that people are making sincere representations for the common good and allows proposals to be subject to scrutiny, and accepted or rejected on the strength of its reasons.

It also ensures that those in the minority are not denied the respect they deserve as equal members of a political community, and that their views and grievances are listened and responded to. This is important because a decision by a majority can only be seen as a decision on behalf of the entire political unit if all members, including members of the minority, see themselves as a meaningful part of that unit.

5. Majority-rule does not necessarily lead to right answers, if there even is such a thing as ‘right’ answers

Indeed, where large groups of independent thinkers are concerned, right answers are much more likely to arise than wrong ones. However, Condorcet developed his theorem in the 19th century; in our interconnected world today, there is much greater scope for propaganda and demagoguery than before.

Furthermore, there are often no ‘right’ answers in politics. Politics is not a scientific exercise oriented towards the pursuit of objective truth. In many conflicts, there are no right answers – merely a conflict of interests or ideas. For example, in terms of choosing between greater economic growth and therefore allowing income inequality to increase, or, reducing income inequality at the expense of slower economic growth, there is no right answer – it is a question of what people want.

Conclusion

I hope that the arguments above demonstrate that the appropriateness majority-rule as a form of decision-making is not as clear cut as many people might think. Many complex issues are involved, and we need to understand them in order to develop decision-making systems that serve our community best.

As noted earlier, this article is not meant to be exhaustive, and has probably left out some arguments that you might think of. For brevity, I have also declined to provide a detailed elaboration of existing arguments. Nonetheless, I hope that the ideas presented here will feature in future discussions that engage issues pertaining to majority decision-making, such as issues concerning ethnic, religious and sexual minorities.


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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Also you need to ratchet down your one sided rhetoric.
If I can present both sides of an issue. Why can't you?
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Another thing you need to read by James Madison

                               Federalist Papers: No. 10 – Full Text
The Union as a Safeguard Against Domestic Faction and Insurrection

To the People of the State of New York:

AMONG the numerous advantages promised by a well constructed Union, none deserves to be more accurately developed than its tendency to break and control the violence of faction. The friend of popular governments never finds himself so much alarmed for their character and fate, as when he contemplates their propensity to this dangerous vice. He will not fail, therefore, to set a due value on any plan which, without violating the principles to which he is attached, provides a proper cure for it. The instability, injustice, and confusion introduced into the public councils, have, in truth, been the mortal diseases under which popular governments have everywhere perished; as they continue to be the favorite and fruitful topics from which the adversaries to liberty derive their most specious declamations. The valuable improvements made by the American constitutions on the popular models, both ancient and modern, cannot certainly be too much admired; but it would be an unwarrantable partiality, to contend that they have as effectually obviated the danger on this side, as was wished and expected. Complaints are everywhere heard from our most considerate and virtuous citizens, equally the friends of public and private faith, and of public and personal liberty, that our governments are too unstable, that the public good is disregarded in the conflicts of rival parties, and that measures are too often decided, not according to the rules of justice and the rights of the minor party, but by the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority. However anxiously we may wish that these complaints had no foundation, the evidence, of known facts will not permit us to deny that they are in some degree true. It will be found, indeed, on a candid review of our situation, that some of the distresses under which we labor have been erroneously charged on the operation of our governments; but it will be found, at the same time, that other causes will not alone account for many of our heaviest misfortunes; and, particularly, for that prevailing and increasing distrust of public engagements, and alarm for private rights, which are echoed from one end of the continent to the other. These must be chiefly, if not wholly, effects of the unsteadiness and injustice with which a factious spirit has tainted our public administrations.

By a faction, I understand a number of citizens, whether amounting to a majority or a minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adversed to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community.

There are two methods of curing the mischiefs of faction: the one, by removing its causes; the other, by controlling its effects.

There are again two methods of removing the causes of faction: the one, by destroying the liberty which is essential to its existence; the other, by giving to every citizen the same opinions, the same passions, and the same interests.

It could never be more truly said than of the first remedy, that it was worse than the disease. Liberty is to faction what air is to fire, an aliment without which it instantly expires. But it could not be less folly to abolish liberty, which is essential to political life, because it nourishes faction, than it would be to wish the annihilation of air, which is essential to animal life, because it imparts to fire its destructive agency.

The second expedient is as impracticable as the first would be unwise. As long as the reason of man continues fallible, and he is at liberty to exercise it, different opinions will be formed. As long as the connection subsists between his reason and his self-love, his opinions and his passions will have a reciprocal influence on each other; and the former will be objects to which the latter will attach themselves. The diversity in the faculties of men, from which the rights of property originate, is not less an insuperable obstacle to a uniformity of interests. The protection of these faculties is the first object of government. From the protection of different and unequal faculties of acquiring property, the possession of different degrees and kinds of property immediately results; and from the influence of these on the sentiments and views of the respective proprietors, ensues a division of the society into different interests and parties.

The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man; and we see them everywhere brought into different degrees of activity, according to the different circumstances of civil society. A zeal for different opinions concerning religion, concerning government, and many other points, as well of speculation as of practice; an attachment to different leaders ambitiously contending for pre-eminence and power; or to persons of other descriptions whose fortunes have been interesting to the human passions, have, in turn, divided mankind into parties, inflamed them with mutual animosity, and rendered them much more disposed to vex and oppress each other than to co-operate for their common good. So strong is this propensity of mankind to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts. But the most common and durable source of factions has been the various and unequal distribution of property. Those who hold and those who are without property have ever formed distinct interests in society. Those who are creditors, and those who are debtors, fall under a like discrimination. A landed interest, a manufacturing interest, a mercantile interest, a moneyed interest, with many lesser interests, grow up of necessity in civilized nations, and divide them into different classes, actuated by different sentiments and views. The regulation of these various and interfering interests forms the principal task of modern legislation, and involves the spirit of party and faction in the necessary and ordinary operations of the government.

No man is allowed to be a judge in his own cause, because his interest would certainly bias his judgment, and, not improbably, corrupt his integrity. With equal, nay with greater reason, a body of men are unfit to be both judges and parties at the same time; yet what are many of the most important acts of legislation, but so many judicial determinations, not indeed concerning the rights of single persons, but concerning the rights of large bodies of citizens? And what are the different classes of legislators but advocates and parties to the causes which they determine? Is a law proposed concerning private debts? It is a question to which the creditors are parties on one side and the debtors on the other. Justice ought to hold the balance between them. Yet the parties are, and must be, themselves the judges; and the most numerous party, or, in other words, the most powerful faction must be expected to prevail. Shall domestic manufactures be encouraged, and in what degree, by restrictions on foreign manufactures? are questions which would be differently decided by the landed and the manufacturing classes, and probably by neither with a sole regard to justice and the public good. The apportionment of taxes on the various descriptions of property is an act which seems to require the most exact impartiality; yet there is, perhaps, no legislative act in which greater opportunity and temptation are given to a predominant party to trample on the rules of justice. Every shilling with which they overburden the inferior number, is a shilling saved to their own pockets.

It is in vain to say that enlightened statesmen will be able to adjust these clashing interests, and render them all subservient to the public good. Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm. Nor, in many cases, can such an adjustment be made at all without taking into view indirect and remote considerations, which will rarely prevail over the immediate interest which one party may find in disregarding the rights of another or the good of the whole.

The inference to which we are brought is, that the CAUSES of faction cannot be removed, and that relief is only to be sought in the means of controlling its EFFECTS.

If a faction consists of less than a majority, relief is supplied by the republican principle, which enables the majority to defeat its sinister views by regular vote. It may clog the administration, it may convulse the society; but it will be unable to execute and mask its violence under the forms of the Constitution. When a majority is included in a faction, the form of popular government, on the other hand, enables it to sacrifice to its ruling passion or interest both the public good and the rights of other citizens. To secure the public good and private rights against the danger of such a faction, and at the same time to preserve the spirit and the form of popular government, is then the great object to which our inquiries are directed. Let me add that it is the great desideratum by which this form of government can be rescued from the opprobrium under which it has so long labored, and be recommended to the esteem and adoption of mankind.

By what means is this object attainable? Evidently by one of two only. Either the existence of the same passion or interest in a majority at the same time must be prevented, or the majority, having such coexistent passion or interest, must be rendered, by their number and local situation, unable to concert and carry into effect schemes of oppression. If the impulse and the opportunity be suffered to coincide, we well know that neither moral nor religious motives can be relied on as an adequate control. They are not found to be such on the injustice and violence of individuals, and lose their efficacy in proportion to the number combined together, that is, in proportion as their efficacy becomes needful.

From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischief's of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions.

A republic, by which I mean a government in which the scheme of representation takes place, opens a different prospect, and promises the cure for which we are seeking. Let us examine the points in which it varies from pure democracy, and we shall comprehend both the nature of the cure and the efficacy which it must derive from the Union.

The two great points of difference between a democracy and a republic are: first, the delegation of the government, in the latter, to a small number of citizens elected by the rest; secondly, the greater number of citizens, and greater sphere of country, over which the latter may be extended.

The effect of the first difference is, on the one hand, to refine and enlarge the public views, by passing them through the medium of a chosen body of citizens, whose wisdom may best discern the true interest of their country, and whose patriotism and love of justice will be least likely to sacrifice it to temporary or partial considerations. Under such a regulation, it may well happen that the public voice, pronounced by the representatives of the people, will be more consonant to the public good than if pronounced by the people themselves, convened for the purpose. On the other hand, the effect may be inverted. Men of factious tempers, of local prejudices, or of sinister designs, may, by intrigue, by corruption, or by other means, first obtain the suffrages, and then betray the interests, of the people. The question resulting is, whether small or extensive republics are more favorable to the election of proper guardians of the public weal; and it is clearly decided in favor of the latter by two obvious considerations:

In the first place, it is to be remarked that, however small the republic may be, the representatives must be raised to a certain number, in order to guard against the cabals of a few; and that, however large it may be, they must be limited to a certain number, in order to guard against the confusion of a multitude. Hence, the number of representatives in the two cases not being in proportion to that of the two constituents, and being proportionally greater in the small republic, it follows that, if the proportion of fit characters be not less in the large than in the small republic, the former will present a greater option, and consequently a greater probability of a fit choice.

In the next place, as each representative will be chosen by a greater number of citizens in the large than in the small republic, it will be more difficult for unworthy candidates to practice with success the vicious arts by which elections are too often carried; and the suffrages of the people being more free, will be more likely to centre in men who possess the most attractive merit and the most diffusive and established characters.

It must be confessed that in this, as in most other cases, there is a mean, on both sides of which inconveniences will be found to lie. By enlarging too much the number of electors, you render the representatives too little acquainted with all their local circumstances and lesser interests; as by reducing it too much, you render him unduly attached to these, and too little fit to comprehend and pursue great and national objects. The federal Constitution forms a happy combination in this respect; the great and aggregate interests being referred to the national, the local and particular to the State legislatures.

The other point of difference is, the greater number of citizens and extent of territory which may be brought within the compass of republican than of democratic government; and it is this circumstance principally which renders factious combinations less to be dreaded in the former than in the latter. The smaller the society, the fewer probably will be the distinct parties and interests composing it; the fewer the distinct parties and interests, the more frequently will a majority be found of the same party; and the smaller the number of individuals composing a majority, and the smaller the compass within which they are placed, the more easily will they concert and execute their plans of oppression. Extend the sphere, and you take in a greater variety of parties and interests; you make it less probable that a majority of the whole will have a common motive to invade the rights of other citizens; or if such a common motive exists, it will be more difficult for all who feel it to discover their own strength, and to act in unison with each other. Besides other impediments, it may be remarked that, where there is a consciousness of unjust or dishonorable purposes, communication is always checked by distrust in proportion to the number whose concurrence is necessary.

Hence, it clearly appears, that the same advantage which a republic has over a democracy, in controlling the effects of faction, is enjoyed by a large over a small republic,–is enjoyed by the Union over the States composing it. Does the advantage consist in the substitution of representatives whose enlightened views and virtuous sentiments render them superior to local prejudices and schemes of injustice? It will not be denied that the representation of the Union will be most likely to possess these requisite endowments. Does it consist in the greater security afforded by a greater variety of parties, against the event of any one party being able to outnumber and oppress the rest? In an equal degree does the increased variety of parties comprised within the Union, increase this security. Does it, in fine, consist in the greater obstacles opposed to the concert and accomplishment of the secret wishes of an unjust and interested majority? Here, again, the extent of the Union gives it the most palpable advantage.

The influence of factious leaders may kindle a flame within their particular States, but will be unable to spread a general conflagration through the other States. A religious sect may degenerate into a political faction in a part of the Confederacy; but the variety of sects dispersed over the entire face of it must secure the national councils against any danger from that source. A rage for paper money, for an abolition of debts, for an equal division of property, or for any other improper or wicked project, will be less apt to pervade the whole body of the Union than a particular member of it; in the same proportion as such a malady is more likely to taint a particular county or district, than an entire State.

In the extent and proper structure of the Union, therefore, we behold a republican remedy for the diseases most incident to republican government. And according to the degree of pleasure and pride we feel in being republicans, ought to be our zeal in cherishing the spirit and supporting the character of Federalists.



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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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This article in short says that compromise is the true path. Calm & collected differences need be presented respectfully.
You must convince the majority of an overwhelming need for compromise. If you fail keep at it. But if you do not then you will initiate a breakdown of society as a whole and inevitably fail because of this discord. And if society as an established republic fails so does that radicalized minority that defied the majority.
Your basic Lose, Lose scenario.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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But Communal thinking is embraced by the left. That's why I used it.
Are you saying your a conservative? A Red Hat?
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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You are misinterpreting it. Plain and simple. You have a narrow prejudicial view on things in general. You site a leftest view as bad because it does not fit "Your" narrative. I can have a debate and not stoop to calling anyone a name. You however cannot.
This is usually a sign of someone that is losing an argument.
I can control myself. You however cannot.
It makes you impossible to be found credible.
Bye Bye
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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As I said...............
This is usually a sign of someone that is losing an argument.
I can control myself. You however cannot.
It makes you impossible to be found credible.
Bye Bye


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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Bye Bye
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Unfollow this thread
Delete your account
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Luke Davies

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Not sure.. i’m still trying to figure that out
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ACT_1

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On or Off topic here ? ?

Caitlyn Jenner
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0421063/
Born: October 28, 1949 in Mount Kisco, New York, USA
Birth Name : William Bruce Jenner

In June of 2015,
she completed her public gender transition
and introduced herself as Caitlyn Jenner
with an article and photo shoot in Vanity Fair magazine.

Actress: Movie (5 credits)
2014 - The Hungover Games  - Skip Bayflick (as Bruce Jenner)
2011/I - Jack and Jill - Bruce Jenner (as Bruce Jenner)
1999 - The Big Tease - Bruce Jenner (as Bruce Jenner)
1990 - A Man Called Sarge - Special Appearance (as Bruce Jenner)
1980 - Can't Stop the Music - Ron White (as Bruce Jenner)
- - -

Bruce Jenner Was an Actor way back then...
.

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MikeTheWhistle

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This raises a question I've not seen before. What about any pics?
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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There are both.
Before and after.

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Princess Perky Pants

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No Caitlyn Jenner suffered from GID since 1972 according to her first wife. There was no Bruce. 
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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Princess Perky Pants, not arguing that, but there were credits which said Bruce Jenner. There's certain legality of name and credits in this world which I'm not too happy about myself, so saying that "there was no Bruce" just does not work in this world, figuartively. And yes, we live in an imperfect crapsack dystopian world in which most of Earth's population still have way too much problems which they should not. We should not have as much problems with legally confirming who we are and who we are not as well as having that much problems thinking about credits in movies.  

Using your logic actual person named Divine never existed, but that's how Harris Glen Milstead was nearly always credited. And just in case: no, Divine reportedly never had GID, so in this case his birth name applies. Although IMDb trivia is perpetually confused and refers to Divine as both her and him, depending on perspective.  
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Princess Perky Pants

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Look  Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin),  I don't have time to time to explain the difference between a drag queen and a transsexual. Divine was Glens character, he never changed his name, never claimed to be transsexual. To spend more time here when the ignorance is so deep is a waste. Bigots and the incompetent  mod  who doesn't know the job make the discussion impossible.   Here in this world tyrants you do what you want. Lie, insult, make up bullshit.This is nothing but a fan run bullshit factory. Sorry but that is the truth. Have  great day making up nonsense. 
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Bderoes. Where are these removals please?
Thanks.
Take your ............ and Shove it?



Nerds being used in a derogatory hurtful manner. Purposeful Intention.




Where is your action on these?
Please be fair.
Thanks
:):)
Ed
(Edited)
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Princess Perky Pants

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And this bigot ....
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Princess Perky Pants

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Yeah let be fair so a jerk who belittles transgender people. Here is the thing Ed , you Marco and Mike will be here going at it for the rest of your lives. Little snowflakes :) 
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Snowflake is a 2010s derogatory slang term for a person, implying that they have an inflated sense of uniqueness, an unwarranted sense of entitlement, or are overly-emotional, easily offended, and unable to deal with opposing opinions. Common usages include the terms special snowflake, Generation Snowflake, and snowflake as a politicized insult.

If you don't know when or where the term applies???????????????
You have used another derogatory reference!
Mirror Time!
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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And that's my last for you.
You have not won the argument.
You have only made a small step.
Don't push your point too harshly as you will become what you despise..
(Edited)
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Luke Davies

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Dear Imdb,

Please continue with your policy, keep all valid information on this website permanently
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Marco

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keep all valid information on this website permanently

I second this.
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Luke Davies

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Those articles I presented earlier have remained the same, so maybe the new policy won’t have any affect on the valid info never getting removed from the site..
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ACT_1

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 ? ?


https://getsatisfaction.com/imdb/topics/imdb-needs-to-stop-deadnaming-trans-people

IMDb needs to stop deadnaming trans people
IMDb should not put trans people’s old names out there.
The site should make an exception for the policy
of not removing factual information,
since this is extremely disrespectful
to all trans people working in the film industry....

Kati Knitt
https://getsatisfaction.com/imdb/people/kati_knitt
Posted 3 months ago (May 27 2019)

This conversation is no longer open for comments or replies.
.

- - -

Poll: How do you think IMDb should handle birth/other pre-transition names of transgender people?
Kelly L.
https://getsatisfaction.com/imdb/people/kelly_l_6500954
Posted 7 months ago (Jan 27 2019)
.
(Edited)

This conversation is no longer open for comments or replies.