First Man Imdb rating& controversy

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  • (Edited)
I have just heard about the controversy surrounding Damien Chazelle's new film 'First Man' regarding the presence of the American flag and what-not. Because of that, I have noticed First Man's rating on IMDB is peculiarly now (5.2/10 out of 686 votes at time of writing), and surely that must be because of many people intentionally giving it a 1/10 rating just because of this controversy. And considering critics are giving the film good reviews (as you can see on MetaCritic and RT)... this rating can't be reflective of what overall audiences think of this movie.

It's true that IMDB functions as a democracy, so to speak, in that everyone has the right to vote however they want. And generally the website shouldn't have a right to remove ratings or terminate accounts as and when they please. But when it comes to a case like this, which could potentially involve people creating accounts just so they could give 1/10 to First Man... is there anything IMDB can do about it?

Just to be clear, I hate to see political correctness or historical revisionism infiltrate movies too. But my concern is that the accusations towards this film, that it propagates deceitful, anti-American ideology, is potentially based on vastly overblown reports and claims from other people whose meanings have been greatly exaggerated. And that would be very unfair to everyone involved in the making of First Man. I'm sure most people who see it later on will be able to appreciate the USA's space achievements (and for Americans, revel in their own nation's accomplishments).

Anyway whether IMDB is able to fix up this rating, that's not very crucial. But for everyone else I would just say please don't hate on this film and give a low rating before even seeing it. At least watch for yourself before making a judgment, and know reports given by others about it are not always entirely accurate.   
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Gerald Koh

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Posted 1 year ago

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ACT_1

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I have just heard about the controversy surrounding Damien Chazelle's new film 'First Man' regarding the presence of the American flag
by Gerald Koh
Joined on September 2, 2018
https://getsatisfaction.com/imdb/people/gerald_koh
- - -

First Man  (2018)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1213641/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1213641/reference
A look at the life of the astronaut, Neil Armstrong,
and the legendary space mission that led him to become
the first man to walk on the Moon on July 20, 1969.

Director: Damien Chazelle
Ryan Gosling   ...  Neil Armstrong

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1213641/releaseinfo
USA 31 August 2018 (Telluride Film Festival)
UK 12 October 2018

- - -

September 2, 2018 :

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1213641/reviews - 6 Reviews

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1213641/ratings
726 IMDb users have given a weighted average vote of 5.1 / 10
Arithmetic mean = 5.3   Median = 5.5

Rating .......... Votes
10 .... 33.5% ... 243
09 ..... 4.4% ..... 32
08 ..... 6.9% ..... 50
07 ..... 4.0% ..... 29
06 ..... 1.2% ....... 9
05 ..... 1.2% ....... 9
04 ..... 1.5% ...... 11
03 ..... 1.1% ....... 8
02 ..... 3.9% ...... 28
01 .... 42.3% ... 307
- - -

FAQ for IMDb Ratings - What are IMDb ratings?
https://help.imdb.com/article/imdb/track-movies-tv/faq-for-imdb-ratings/G67Y87TFYYP6TWAV

- - -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_11
Apollo 11 was the spaceflight that landed the first two people on the Moon.
Mission commander Neil Armstrong and pilot Buzz Aldrin,
landed the lunar module Eagle on July 20, 1969

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Buzz_salutes_the_U.S._Flag.jpg/238px-Buzz_...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Flag_Assembly

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing_conspiracy_theories
The most notable claim is that the six manned landings (1969–72)
were faked and that 12 Apollo astronauts did not actually walk on the Moon



(Edited)
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ACT_1

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September 7 2018

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1213641/reviews - 3 Reviews

 8/10
Spectacular movie ! 
Beast Incarnate (HorrorFan6969) - 1 September 2018

10/10
Incredibly Moving, Visually Stunning, and Simply Breathtaking. 
jlthornb5 - 15 September 2018

10/10
A Spectacular Achievement 
erikat-35187 - 3 September 2018

- - -

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1213641/ratings
No Ratings Available
Ratings are not available for this title

(Edited)
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Ken Stallings

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So, the censorship is complete!  All the ratings have been purged and all but three "top notch" reviews have been removed.  

Col, you started this website, and so as one of those "unwashed" Americans, I firmly believe in the Constitution, which among many other liberties, gives people the right to run their businesses as they wish.  You sold IMDb to Amazon, but under terms that reserves to you control over the website.

But, people are taking notice of what your staff -- presumably with your approval -- has chosen to do here.

This wasn't some orchestrated conspiracy.  People independently chose to learn what was done in this movie (or more critically ignored) and decided to make their views of this movie known.  Is your website still dedicated to the free exchange of reviews or not?  It doesn't look so free to me!

I have a full time job and a family to raise.  So, I don't have tons of time to devote to this.  But, as someone who watched live the Apollo 11 landing, I can tell you that in my large circle of friends and co-workers, there isn't one who wasn't outraged by the omission of the actual flag planting, and for that reason alone, will not patronize it.

If you think purging ratings and reviews of this movie is going to prevent people learning the truth and making their own free choices, then you are wrong.  Most critical of all, if you cannot understand how important this issue is to millions of Americans, then there lies the real problem -- an industry that has lost its way, and by it lost connection with the very people it must rely upon for economic survival.
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Jeorj Euler

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On a side note, the United States Constitution does not give anything to the non-polity but rather helps protect what is already had, while specifying the authority (duty) of the government and the limitations of that authority (duty), as far as enforcement of "protection".
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ACT_1

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Ken Stallings :
Col, you started this website, and so as one of those "unwashed" Americans, I firmly believe in the Constitution

Jeorj Euler:
On a side note, the United States Constitution does not give anything

- - -

Just to add this . . .

- - -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Col_Needham
Colin Needham (born 26 January 1967)
is an English entrepreneur who is best known as the founder and CEO of IMDb.
He has served as general manager of IMDb since its acquisition by Amazon in 1998
Residence: Stoke Gifford, Gloucestershire, England
- - -

He does not need to follow the rules here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution

Maybe Amazon ??


(Edited)
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Jeorj Euler

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Hi, ACT_1. Nobody claimed that he had to follow those rules.
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ACT_1

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Hi, Jeorj Euler

Ken Stallings :
the omission of the actual flag planting...
- - -

Maybe the omission of the actual planting of the American flag  ? ?

Ryan Gosling   ...  Neil Armstrong

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0331516/

Born: November 12, 1980  in London, Ontario, Canada


(Edited)
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ACT_1

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.
Not the 1st  Trip to the Moon  !


A Trip to the Moon  (1898)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0000211/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0000211/reference
Director: Georges Méliès
Writer: Georges Méliès
this has no relation to the 1902 film A Trip to the Moon.
- - -

A Trip to the Moon  (1902)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0000417/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0000417/reference
Director: Georges Méliès
Writers: Georges Méliès, Jules Verne, H.G. Wells


https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=a+trip+to+the+moon+1902


(Edited)
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Col Needham, Official Rep

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Thank you for sharing your concern, all we can say about voting is covered in the FAQ at https://help.imdb.com/article/imdb/track-movies-tv/faq-for-imdb-ratings/G67Y87TFYYP6TWAV
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Ken Stallings

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What I will say is that your website's staff has chosen to censure nearly every single review and have chosen to only allow three extremely positive reviews to remain.  I have been a member here for over seven months and have received extremely positive feedback for those reviews.

My review of First Man was factual in that we know what the issues are as a result of the details from the film's premier being reported on.  One negative review was written by an 11 year member of IMDb who says he watched the movie at one of these premiers.  That review was likewise removed well after being published.

The truth is that many people object to the obvious PC based historical revisions of this movie.  The producer.director can deny them all he wishes to, but he must have known how this gross omission of the planting of the flag would create significant controversy.

I am personally appalled at the naked censorship applied to this movie, and it is a singular experience for me.  Before this, I never had a review I wrote declined.  Moreover, no explanation was even given for why my review was removed over a day after it was approved and posted.

One last point, I am not some internet conspiracy hack.  I am instead a 30 year USAF officer, retired,  and former Air Force pilot and navigator.  So, I think I speak with a certain kinship about men like Neil Armstrong who were too humble to call himself a hero, but doesn't serve an actor using that humility as an avenue to say that he wouldn't have considered what he did to be a patriotic achievement.

The problem with Hollywood today is that they have so thoroughly purged conservative and traditional voices from their ranks that they no longer understand the values of millions of their potential audience.

To assert that all the negative reviews were works of ignorance reveals a terribly warped and condescending viewpoint.  

Lastly, I point out to other salient facts to the folks here.  Both Buzz Aldrin and Chuck Yeager are critical of this movie and how it chose to portray the Apollo 11 landing as well as how it represented Neil Armstrong.  Are these two people also part of the "ignorant knaves" coalition?  I think they knew Armstrong better than any of the actors in this movie did!  And yes, I am aware of what Neil's two sons are saying, and while I respect their views, I don't agree with everything they have said either.
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Vincent Fournols

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I do not understand your worries about international audiences: the movie has premiered in Venice a couple of days ago, and will be released internationally (theatrical releases) in October... (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1213641/releaseinfo)

And out of 354 votes (at present), 192 US identified users give it an average mark of 3.0 (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1213641/ratings). My 2 cents that it is a pure 100% US controversy, that makes the rest of the world laugh, or cry, accordingly.


(Edited)
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Ngọc Thái Nguyễn

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This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Change the rating System NOW!.

You can see the problem with the movie First Man! So many people didnt even watch the film but leave cmts about "be not going to watch the film because the film doesnt have the flag scene" and Rate this movie 1/10??? I mean What the hell is that??? 
I suggest you guys have to change the system like this: you have to answer some questions about the film so that you can rate a film, less than 50% correct answers  you out of the game.
Please listen to me. This is serious!
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Ed Jones(XLIX)

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As long as Hollywood takes Political Correctness to the extreme, there will be consequences resulting in this type of protest. And your theory of people "creating accounts" just to give it a 1just for this controversy is highly unlikely. I would be willing to bet that over 75% of those 1 votes came from long time registered users.

By the way these are the ones that cared enough to write. The others were probably so angry they knew that they could not put into words their displeasure.

First 1 Vote With a Review...
1/10 Will never see this movie rbern11162
2 September 2018
Hollywood , they just can't help themselves. You make a movie that would appeal to patriotic Americans. And you go and disrespect them by not honoring the country that put the man on the moon. I should be running to see this movie. Instead I will never spend one second watching it .
See here this person 7 Year Member


Will not see.
nittlion

2 September 2018
Omitting the planting of the American flag cheapens what millions of Americans of all diversities who came together to do this. A ridiculous and pointless omitting of facts.

2/10
Historical revisionism! kenstallings-65346
2 September 2018
No matter how hard a small group of like minded people conspire to deny the truth, the truth always remains in place. Professional critics who HAVE seen this film are ripping it to shreds for the needless and PC historical revisionism it represents.

Such a negative reaction resulted, that the star actor, Ryan Gosling, was asked about the controversy during his time at the Venice Film Festival. His response has already been equally ripped in media the world over.

No matter how often individual reviews of this film are censored, such as my first one was a full day after it was initially approved, and no matter how many people choose to dislike comments that point to the truth, the truth shall always remain the truth.












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Vincent Fournols

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Thank you Cliff.
Are there any "Review editors" who can remove the rating (not the review, only the rating) from people who admit they have not seen the movie?
In a way, is not that an implicit breach of policy?
(Edited)
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Ed Jones(XLIX)

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Hi Vince, I'll wait for an answer on your question from someone that knows that. But also ponder this. Open forum. 1st Amendment (Right to free speech) Registered user expressing said right. Does The IMDb want to inhibit his right to state facts in a thoughtful, respectful manner? Theoretical. If he was "Forced" to watch it do you not think he would give it the same ranking?
(Edited)
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Vincent Fournols

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My question was targeted to IMDb staff of course.

I am not calling for the reviews to me removed, just that the rating is not aggregated to compute the IMDb rating. Because this wa,y I, as a non US-person (and I do know what a US-person means and covers for the US administration), is what I expect from IMDb.
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Ed Jones(XLIX)

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Hi Vince, I'll wait for an answer on your question from someone that knows that. That's why my first sentence was this statement. Of course IMDB will answer on your question from someone that knows that.
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Ed Jones(XLIX)

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I look at rankings a little different than most. Think about this.
A 1 vote more than likely came from a voter that has not seen nor will ever see the title.
A 2 vote watched for 15 or less min. Could not go on. Bad writing/offensive material
A 3.. 1/2 the title. Could not go on. Bad writing/acting
A 4.. Whole/three quarters. Did not care how it ended. Stopped watching.
A 5 ..Saw Complete. Conclusion. Don't watch.
A 6 ...OK to pass the time if there is nothing better to watch
A 7...Worth your time Not Bad
An 8...Recommended you see
A 9...A must see.. Excellent writing, cinematography, locations, story.
A 10 Fanatical Voter territory, or a real possibility of getting into the AFI top 100.

I trust all these votes...They speak for themselves when you look at them as I do.
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Marco

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A 2 vote watched for 15 or less min. Could not go on. Bad writing/offensive material


My two cents: Don't vote for a movie if you have only seen 15 minutes or less. I feel you can't judge a whole movie based on 15 minutes or less.
I personally feel I can only vote for something if I've seen the whole thing.
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Ken Stallings

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It's a bit different when the movie openly says it is a biopic, meaning a biographical motion picture.  When dealing with historic, factual events, one must endeavor to be historically correct.  Omitting vital events from a biopic because it doesn't serve some political calculation is a terrible injustice.  

A star actor implying in his post-production interviews that the man he portrayed on screen did not consider himself to be an American when carrying out the historic mission depicted, is likewise a terrible insult.

Given all this, one doesn't have to sit to watch the entire movie.  The planting of the American flag wasn't some superfluous event.  Historians roundly consider it among the greatest actions carried out in the 20th century.  Yes, planting the flag was part of the Apollo 11 mission, but it was directly mandated by act of US Congress.  So, it was that important then.

This isn't a movie producing a fictional event.  Save such political messaging for fictional works.  As I wrote in my review of the recent Moe Berg film, when you care to produce a movie about an actual person, you owe it to that person's memory to sweat the details and get the presentation accurate.

Omitting the flag planting is as serious an omission of that Apollo 11 mission as omitting Buzz Aldrin being with Neil Armstrong would have been.  The flag, as eventually shown in the movie, didn't get there by happenstance.  It was deliberately planted there by two patriotic Americans, who were willing to risk everything to beat the Russians to the moon.  And in that simple act, seared the memory of that precise action into the hearts and minds of hundreds of millions of Americans who sat glued to their televisions watching it.  I was one of those Americans who watched it live. 

President Kennedy laid out the justification for the mission in his speech to Rice University.  And in that speech, he carefully laid out the rationale for the United States, and not the Soviet Union, being the first to the moon.  My censored reviews included all of these historic references.  In the world of IMDb, even quoting John F. Kennedy is considered now a censorious act, worthy of purging!  

Bottom line, if Hollywood wishes to link its productions to actual people, then get the details correct, else, sink or swim with fictional presentations.  And while on this theme, the famous producer's line remains true:  "if you want to send a message, use Western Union!"
(Edited)
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Vincent Fournols

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Ken,

I respect your views, but I find them absolutely full of prejudices.

A film is, among other things, a work of art, and the producer, the writer, the director have the absolute right to treat their story the way they want it. As you have the absolute right to refuse to pruchase and see it, or walk out at any time.

There is no such thing as a clear divide between fiction and a fantasized belief that "reality" can be represented objectively. And there are litterally tons of biographical movies (and books) that have been challenged by people who know better. Truth will never be found in a movie. Only humanity at the best, and beauty. Or fun, or entertainment, all mixed together. But not universal Truth.

I was 11 in July 1969 and I very distincly recall the time and the period. And if Ryan Gosling says that Neil Armstrong "did not consider himself to be an American" because he felt more as a member of the Human race at the time, there is no way for me to challenge this (I attended a lecture by Mr. Armstrong a couple of years later).

Very respectfully.
(Edited)
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Ken Stallings

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You cannot respect someone and at the same time call him prejudiced.  You have to make a choice which way you see it.  I would submit for your consideration to leave the rhetorical dog whistles out entirely and just focus on the objective points!

Of course Hollywood is filled with terribly inaccurate biopics.  In fact, this is a theme I carry out when reviewing biographical pictures.  I evaluate them on their accuracy.

One of the most egregiously poor efforts was the remake of the classic Memphis Belle, which originally was truly an official production of the actual mission the crew flew.  For authenticity, you cannot find better.  The remake was a terribly warped and distorted effort that earned rebuke.

But, previous bad examples hardly diminishes the need to focus on encouragement of better efforts going forward.  If a producer wants a blank slate, then produce a fictional work.  It's easy enough to do.  But, if you choose to treat a chapter from history, then sweat the historic details and get them correct.  That's hardly prejudice, but instead simple respect for historical accuracy.

I'm sure you are familiar with Chuck Yeager.  To Gosling's statements, Yeager pointedly said, "that's not the Neil Armstrong that I knew!"  Yeager commanded one of the training schools that the astronauts studied at, including Armstrong.  

There is no doubt that Armstrong -- like all the astronauts -- appreciated the manifest human achievement.  We planted a plaque, which was included in the movie, that commemorated even the Soviet efforts.  But, that effort at magnanimity should not be used as a justification to obscure other salient actions.
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Randy Lewis

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I have posted - three times - my opinion on the omission of the American Flag planting in the movie. It has been deleted twice, literally for no reason stated. Didn't realize IMDB was in the censorship business. BTW one comment I made was that, using Gosling's logic, the title should have been "First Human" not "First Man". After all, wasn't the moon landing a "Human" not a "Male" achievement?    
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Vincent Fournols

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Randy,

If you have posted your opinion three times and it was deleted twice, therefore at least one posting is still live, is not it?

Regarding the gender thought, Neil Armstrong has always being referred to (so far) as "the first man on the Moon". Even though he explicitly mentioned "mankind" in his famous sentence.
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Randy Lewis

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Hi Vincent - I just reposted my review today. The last two times it took a day before IMDB decided to delete/censor my review. If IMDB follows form, they will delete/censor my third review by tomorrow. Hopefully they will change their censorship policy, we will see. The American planting of the flag has always been referred to in talking about the moon landing.         
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Vincent Fournols

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Just beware to analyze thoroughly IMDb review posting policies, which might explain the rejection, before invoking censorship!
If you have posted the same review for the third time, it will surely be rejected a third time.
(Edited)
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Randy Lewis

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The landing on the moon has always been referred to as an American achievement. Americans such as the three American black ladies highlighted in the movie "Hidden Figures"  
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Vincent Fournols

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And?

We are not discussing the movie here (which has hardly been released, as a matter of fact) but the capacity of IMDb to fullfill its objectives in providing information about it.
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Randy Lewis

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I have, and have violated none of the posting policies. This is perhaps why they say "Your contribution has been declined.We did not capture a specific reason during processing". Until IMDB actually gives a reason, it is my opinion that they are deleting my review, and others BTW, because of ideological reasons, but they don't want to say that. THAT is censorship!    
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Vincent Fournols

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You can forget about the ideological reason :)

Please post the 18 digit submission ID, so an IMDb staff can shed a motivated explanation.
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Randy Lewis

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We are discussing "First Man IMDB rating and controversy". IMDB is not fulfilling its stated objective of allowing free expression, subject to IMDB's stated constraints, none of which I have violated.      
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Randy Lewis

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Many of us will not forget the ideological reason, until IMDB provides an alternative reason for the deletions.      
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Randy Lewis

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Many of us will not forget the ideological reason, until IMDB provides an alternative reason for the deletions.      
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SeventhAr7

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Your review is on-line, I saw it.
Go check again
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Vincent Fournols

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What a big silence...
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Randy Lewis

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I got bored ... in any event, Hi SeventhAr7, the reviews are on IMDB for a short while after submission, then deleted after the review is seen by IMDB. All of my submissions of the same review for this movie have been deleted/censored in this manner. I notice all but three reviews on the site currently have now been deleted/censored. The titles of these three reviews are "A spectacular achievement", "A Spectacular Movie !" and "Incredibly Moving, Visually Stunning, and Simply Breathtaking". Would be interesting to know what pressure the studio has put on IMDB to suppress negative opinion, given the no flag planting scene gaff and subsequent statements by the lead actor. If IMDB wants to simply function as a PR firm for big studio movies, fine, but then be honest and admit that is what you are. Do not claim you are allowing "free expression" by reviewers, when clearly that is not the case for this movie. BTW, my one other review, submitted years ago, and posted on IMDB for years, has also been deleted! Is IMDB guilty not only of censorship, but of blackballing as well?          
(Edited)
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Vincent Fournols

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Randy,

Why don't you just share the 18 digit submission IDs and wait for an IMDb staffer can say about them?
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Randy Lewis

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Hi Vincent - Here you go: 

#180902-113034-243604
#180903-091411-730504
#180904-022424-217004
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Vincent Fournols

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Randy,

This thread is tagged as "Answered" and your issue is a different one than the one initiated above. So it is very unlikely that IMDb official will browse it. I suggest you create a new on to require justifications.
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Randy Lewis

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Not true - my issue is well within the parameters of the initiated title "First Man IMDB rating and controversy". IMDB has not answered my question and is engaging in censorship. The fact that IMDB is deleting mine, and other peoples negative reviews, demonstrates that IMDB officials have indeed browsed our reviews and are determined to display only extreme positive reviews.     
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Randy Lewis

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Not true - my issue is well within the parameters of the initiated title "First Man IMDB rating and controversy". IMDB has not answered my question and is engaging in censorship. The fact that IMDB is deleting mine, and other peoples negative reviews, demonstrates that IMDB officials have indeed browsed our reviews and are determined to display only extreme positive reviews.     
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Vincent Fournols

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What I mean is: since this thread is flagged as "Answered", it is unlikely that an IMDb staff will review it. So if you want to draw an authoritative attention on your issue and get explanations, you'd better create a new thread about it. Before jumping to censorship conclusions, it would be good to have IMDb's position on it.

I do not agree at with your perception, as you may have noticed, but willing to help so you get a proper answer. Now, it's your game!

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Ed Jones(XLIX)

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Revisionist: One small step for a human. One giant leap for humankind. Where no one has gone before. Oh Supreme Being won't you by me a Mercedes Benz!
It was the 1960's. Neal's a spinnin. So much controversy over such a small thing. What part of this timeline, right now, will somebody not learn from 50 years from now, and be doomed to repeat it?
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Tim

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Actually it was: Quote: "That's one small step for man , one giant leap for mankind ."
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Ed Jones(XLIX)

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Tim Tim Tim......I watched this LIVE at age 14. First word up there "Revisionist" That's what the post is about. Good memory though. Thanks for piping in and being a "Nice" guy. That's what this place is about. Nice people helping others.

Trivia.......
1)Where no one has gone before.
2)Oh Supreme Being won't you by me a Mercedes Benz!
Those are revisionist. 1 is a revisionist saying actually used as a PC correction. 2 Is my rewrite of who's song line?
So what 2 do they refer to?
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Tim

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Cliff Cliff Cliff... lol You're doing a good job on here. Lots of interesting and informative posts.
(Edited)
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Ed Jones(XLIX)

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Thank Thanks Thanks!
1) Star Trek The Next Generation.
2)Janis Joplin – Mercedes Benz Lyrics | Genius Lyrics Lord = Supreme Being
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Ed Jones(XLIX)

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You cannot respect someone and at the same time call..... "him?" ......prejudiced. Ken Stallings

Vince was not saying ....You're..... prejudiced per se. He was referring to your prejudicial "View" on a particular subject. Why is it the minute that that word is spoken it is always taken the wrong way. We should not become so defensive when it is used. Yes some use it "That Way" but Vince was not. Reading your replies I can see you are very intelligent. Taking offense to Vince saying it was a little over the top. Would you not agree?


Prejudice is like a hair across your cheek. You can't see it, you can't find it with your fingers, but you keep brushing at it because the feel of it is irritating.     

Marian Anderson