Gender ratings up front in movies

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Six years ago user Jay Butterfirld proposed having seperate ratings for genders on the front page of each movie. Yes, I know you can click on users and break down the demographics, but I think recent experiences, most especially the ratings for Captain Marvel 2019, show that there can be some drastic differences in gender preferences. Would it really be so difficult to give each movie its current overall score, and then have two extra bits of info alongside for how male and female users rated it? Would it not help people make a more informed decision?
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Brett William C

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Posted 1 month ago

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Nick Burfle

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There are also noticeable differences by age group and by U.S. vs others.  I'm not sure why gender would get priority.  It takes only one click to pull up the data you want?
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Brett William C

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There are many demographics, but the male female is the one that splits movie goers neatly in half. Also, there is often a wide distance between the two and especially in movies with a female lead or leads. As evidence looking at female to male polling - Wonder Woman 2017 7.4 vs 7.8, Bad Moms 6.6 vs 6.0, and Hunger Games 7.8 vs 7.1  Further, the one click search assumes that one is on the IMDB website, but a google search will currently ONLY bring up first the rating that appears in the front of house, and predominantly only more closely reflects the attitudes of female voters than male [for example, if you google Hunger Games the search gives you a rating of 7.1 - MUCH closer to the male polling than the female audience.]
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Brett William C

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So really, the question becomes why should we update a system that currently skews the front of house ratings heavily to what men think of a movie?
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Absurd Mathematics.
There is absolutely no way you can be serious about this topic.
You are asking for a way to do what precisely. Be divisive. An Average is simple math. A weighted average is still also a formula that is GENDER BLIND.
Pointing this out and asking the IMDb to acknowledge this as a some form of bias is ridiculous.
As Nick pointed out you can see the difference simply by looking at the breakdowns and formulating your own personal opinion as to what those breakdowns mean. To force your own small fringe idea on what a rating means is truly unwarranted. It serves no purpose except to satisfy a minority of individuals who cannot except reality.
Cheers.
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Brett William C

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So if IMDB gives you the breakdowns anyway, presumably you object to that and would prefer to ONLY see the total average. Presumably when you talk about a minority of individuals, you are talking about people who are what... not men? Still not seeing a compelling argument here, just some seemingly defensive attitudes about the idea of the gender ratings being shown separately up front. :)
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Puh-lease
Info overload.
Too much clutter.
Lets put Stop lights on every corner too.
Hug a tree.
Save a whale.
Blame Men for ratings.
One overall rating is fine.
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Presumably when you talk about a minority of individuals, you are talking about people who are what... not men?
Answer. NO
Talking about you. And the minority of like thinkers (Very small minority) that are brainwashed into thinking that something is wrong with being male.
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Brett William C

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Hyperbolic rhetoric aside, I don't think rational debate allows that having two scores instead of one clutters anything :) I like being a guy, dude, but I don't see that should give me any special privileges.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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give me any special privileges.

I rest my case!
You are brainwashed into thinking that something is wrong with being male.
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Brett William C

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Just relax, man. The world is not going to implode if male voters lose the controlling interest in deciding on what rating a movie or tv show gets. :)
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Brett William C

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Ed, I just literally said it just means no special privileges. What special privileges do you think males SHOULD get?
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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You just are blind to your plight.
I'm never gonna implode unless you make me chuckle too hard.
Seriously keep your Superior/Inferior ideas to your self.
You are part of a minority.
Misguided I might add.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Your just silly. I'm not replying further to you.
Your comments are based on a delusional hypotheses.
You need deprogramming.
Bye Bye.
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Brett William C

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I don't think I'm the one who needs to shed some faulty programming, actually.
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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I Can't resist.
Science Fiction Award!
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Brett William C

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National Science teaching, actually ;) edit - But props for banter LOL
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Same Thing
I would not let my kids anywhere near you. Male or Female.
You are defective.
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Nikolay Yeriomin, Champion

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Ed Jones (XLIX), just my five cents, but such views does not make one a minority. Moreover, it shifts towards prevalent public opinion, for better or for worse. 

In my humble opinion: for better. We had a world where anyone who is slightly different had two choices: either be afraid or become aggressive and bite back. It took world literally centuries to understand that different people are not only have as much value, we're all different, so trying to segregate as much as we did before is nonsensical, counter-productive and, in long term, threatening for society. It's hard to say whether word "minority" will even stand the test of time when people reevaluate what it means to be normal and what majority is every year and inevitable conclusion is that "being normal" and "being in a majority" are constructs that doesn't hold up well. Simply because in all it's vagueness both of them became almost synonymous with dictating mediocrity.  

I would say that it's a bit of a mistake to think that people were brainwashed into thinking that it's wrong being male. People just looked back and had an interesting show-stopping thought that it's not wrong being anyone and anything unless it violates the laws, and not just decadent artifacts laws of yesterday, but fewer laws that stand and are almost universal around the world, safe for a fewer countries anyone in one's right mind would consider avoiding.  
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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You know me. I am open to all thought. Everyone has a right to be free thinking. To publicly declare that the male race is responsible for the ratings on IMDb as being biased is at best incredulous.

In America there has been a movement on the part of academia to squash the maleness out of males. No more Boys will be Boys. To have a person such as him to have the awesome responsibility of shaping minds of others, and to have that person only give his one sided view of society as the only way, is scary.
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Brett William C

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Males are a race now? But I think information is the best cure for being scared.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Done.
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Brett William C

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I will never understand why the idea of women being able to see right up front what other women as a group think is so utterly terrifying.
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IMDbmember

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Not that I especially care, but IMDb voters are disproportionately male, so this would bring attention to a fact that I doubt IMDb is especially proud of.  It may also risk unnecessarily bringing attention to the touchy binary gender politics.

Plus, I also don't see the point in privileging one demographic over others.  Personally, I'm not usually interested in the difference between ratings between sexes unless there's significant polarization such as the titles mentioned here or something such as The Godfather.  I've seen a couple articles on IMDb's top rated movies by the sex of the voters, and there usually isn't a big difference.
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Brett William C

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How is it privileging one demographic but saying that this is how the members of 50% of the audience voted? I think its pretty obvious when you look for the votes for movies like Hunger Games than men and women as large groups look at the same movie in different ways.
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IMDbmember

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I meant to say privileging one set of demographic data (such as sex) over another set (age, nationality, race, etc.) and not to say privileging men or women over the other.

I don't disagree that there are titles where the ratings of men and women are significantly different, but I suspect from what I've seen that usually the difference isn't significant and, thus, uninteresting.
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Brett William C

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Actually, the data where both genders are close to agreement is quite interesting, as is the ones where they are far apart. The 0.7 difference for, say, Hunger Games, could be pretty significant if one is deciding whether to spend money on a movie. But hey, it's an idea, not a manifesto ;)
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IMDbmember

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Also, men significantly outnumber women as IMDb voters and that negatively reflects on the confidence in IMDb's ratings especially when splitting them based on sex.
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Nikolay Yeriomin, Champion

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Brett William C have you ever considered that there is a confirmation bias around the subject and it affects both sides?  

Despite it's partially true that women and men view the same movie in different ways... Simply the fact that everyone is entitled to one's own opinion makes it a segregation which might offend every gender equally: because every single person views the movie in a unique way, be it closer or further from approximation that we for lack of better terms consider as general, public opinion. I would say that in a perfect world people probably will be smart enough not to differentiate the movies in terms of "feminine" and "masculine" simply because both men and women are perfectly capable of understanding both sides, unless something really stands in a way of their comprehension of the movie. 
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Brett William C

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And is not the fact that the ratings are skewed towards the views of the male audience by virtue of more votes not a reason to question the confidence of the voting system. It is a choice about whether to deal with the aberration either by proactive change or pretending it does not exist,
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Brett William C

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Nikolay Yeriomin I agree that all views of a movie are, in some way, unique. However, one can track trends and patterns across large groups pretty effectively. Also, this is not voting for someone to run the government. The views of 200,000 males give you a good sampling for what men thought of a movie, but the views of 60,000 females are, for the sake of this argument, not really less significant. They are both VERY large samplings and therefore likely to give you an accurate result. It's not like we are talking about a quarter of a million males and ten females, after all.

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IMDbmember

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Oh, there are plenty of reasons to question the confidence of the voting system.  It's an Internet poll, after all.  Not Gallup.

I'm not sure highlighting sexual difference would help the situation any, either, but I haven't thought about what would.
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Nikolay Yeriomin, Champion

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To be honest, Gallup poll has its own share of questionable methods to be cautious about it. As any poll does... 

That said, I'm not as familiar with Gallup poll as with some others out there, so I don't know a whole lot about it. Whenever I encounter it my foremost association is this very short but very funny (and somewhat thought-provoking) essay by Josh Becker, one of my favorite directors.  
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MAthePA

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I just want to bring the fact to your attention:
Users who rates the movies are not obliged to prove their gender and age when they create their profiles on IMDb.
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Brett William C

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Another point worth considering
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MAthePA

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Again. It's not a point. It's a FACT.
People usually have different opinions and "points" when analyzing factual data.

In view of the above fact, my point is that any serious discussion for this matter can not live long. But sure, other people may have their own, different opinions.
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Brett William C

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MAthePA Point and fact are synonymous in this instance. If I say it is a point to consider, it means I accept it as a fact.

On the other hand, while all facts are significant they do not all have a significant affect on the outcome. Does not IMDB use the genders identified to produce the male female demographics on the second page? Clearly if people are giving false information regarding gender, IMDB does not consider the practice so widespread as to significantly distort that result.

So again, what we are back to would simply be moving those two ALREADY EXISTING GENDER AVERAGE ratings to the first page one sees when one pulls up the movie data.

(Edited)
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MAthePA

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"Already existing" averages are additionally provided as is, and they include much more other statistics that should be used carefully and (again and again) with definitive understanding that those include unmeasurable part of hidden data.

E.g., the geography from where the ratings originated. This is more important and interesting information for much greater part of users. But such statistics may and do include the hidden data, because the end users may be hidden thanks to DNS and VPN.

No matter how huge is the volume of hidden data, the final ratings provided on the main page of IMDb are correct and trustful because the hidden data have no influence on the final rating.

In view of all the above, you are asking to initialize a mechanism that should result more in misunderstandings than a real practical advantages. Moreover, users often plead to simplify the main page for more comfortable access to every-day features (there are dozens of them hidden), and you propose an opposite thing.
(Edited)
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Nick Burfle

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And some of us, usually a small percentage, choose not to provide age/gender.  Personally, I don't usually look at how others have rated a movie to determine what to watch, since I've found that movies with high viewer ratings and low Rotten Tomato scores can be great... but so can movies with low viewer ratings and high Tomatoes.
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Brett William C

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Baffling to see people scared of such a Basic idea. This is what the guys thought. This is what the girls thought. It's like a control obsession
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Brett William C

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The Idea that lumping a Whole lot of numbers together to get a vastly simplified average as a final result that tells you everything you need to know doesn't meet the rigors of good data interpretation. IMO as someone who analysed data for a living.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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In all this you have neglected the, "I chose not to Gender Identify" crowd. If The IMDb chose not to make any gender available because it can no longer with a certainty state the "actual" Male vs Female numbers because of that very option of I chose not to say.

For all you know they may all be women in that category!
So if statistics matter as much as you say they do than the statistics cannot back you up unless you want to "GUESS"!
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Brett William C

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Whether a person is or isn't the gender they say they are is, for this discussion, no different that whether a person has or hasn't seen the movie they are voting on. Neither can be absolutely confirmed, and yet all votes are used by IMDB to determine its sites ratings.

So really, you seem to be arguing that all of the statistics are equally valid or invalid, so your point is moot. If IMDB is going to remove the gender option because the statistics are unreliable, it might as well remove the ratings option entirely for exactly the same reason :)
(Edited)
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Nikolay Yeriomin, Champion

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Stating that point and fact are synonymous seems a bit controversial. 

Also, most of the people are not scared of the idea. They don't see the point
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Brett. You are ignoring the third gender as if it does not exist. The Weighted average IS the result of the combination of Male, Female, and None of your Business what my gender is! LOL
You keep ignoring them as if THEY don't exist.
Your argument cannot be proven.
So Mr. Mathematical College Educated Expert Brett. Calculate the real Male to Female Ratio. YOU CAN'T.
You theory is debunked.
Move along.
Cheers.
Se ya
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MAthePA

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As mentioned above, the gender statistics is additional, a-d-d-i-t-i-o-n-a-l statistics that is not intended for extra-relying or using instead of the general means.

When someone keeps buzzing a fixed idea with no concern to all the rest what matters, an allegory helps sometimes. So...

To save lives, some clever people invented the emergency (reserve) parachutes. Very good idea! But then some idiots used both parachutes at once resulting in fouls and their deaths. The rare deaths that resulted from the stupidity did not make the emergency parachutes disappearing. Thanks God!
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Save the Horse!
Ride a Cowboy!
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Brett William C

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Nikolay Yeriomin,fact
/fakt/
noun
noun: fact; plural noun: facts

information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article.
"even the most inventive journalism peters out without facts, and in this case there were no facts"
synonyms:detail, piece of information, particular, item, specific, element, point, factor, feature, characteristic, respect, ingredient, attribute, circumstance, consideration, aspect, facet; More

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Brett William C

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Ed - either the data is good or the data is useless. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If people say they are voting on the movie because they have an informed opinion based on seeing, then IMDB takes them at their word. Same as for the gender identification. And considering the identified votes rank in the tens and hundreds of thousands, that is well enough to create a credible trend. Your arguments are debunked. Sorry :)
(Edited)
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Brett William C

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MAthePA - if the gender data is not intended for use, then why is it listed at all. That statement simply makes no sense.
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MAthePA

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If the crash helmet is intended to protect your head, then wear it to visit restaurants
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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You cant determine the gender of the ones that choose not to provide it.
Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?

THE ANSWER IS NO.

You cant tell me that without that data you can form a supposition.

Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?

NO AGAIN

Stop pushing this dead issue.

All your are providing is comical laughs for all to see.
You are fun to box into a corner.
Give us more ammo to poke holes through.
C'mon.
Need more.
Go ahead "Make Our Day"!
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Jurgen Geevels

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Literally the worst idea ever. Stop putting people in boxes, it's medieval.
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Brett William C

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Jurgen Geevels IMDB already put the people in boxes. The discussion is only about where we put the boxes after that ;)

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Brett William C

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Also honored to be the first person whose conversation you post on :)
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Brett William C

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Nikolay Yeriomin, - you have to admit that ALL of the people who have commented to say the information is not necessary are males, and that by virtue of the number of votes cast by men the informaion on gender is not as important to them because the number is largely reflective of the male voting pattern anyway. So for example, the vote on Hunger Games overall is 7.2. For male voters it was 7.1, but for female voters it was 7.8. In other words, there was a MUCH bigger variation between the actual score and what female identifying voters thought. This in turn is reflected in a casual search of movie ratings on google. It's simply a question of giving women a better idea of what other women thought, and wondering why such information is a bad thing that all these guys seem to really hate?
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Jeorj Euler

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The creator of this topic is also male, though, right?
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Nikolay Yeriomin, Champion

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Brett William C, I can admit that. Moreover I actually wanted to do that myself for a while, albeit I've never found whether I actually have a point about that or that will end up being just admitting the fact. 

I am actually curious as to why this thread notably lacks feminine presence. 
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Brett William C

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jeorj_euler yes. Male.
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Brett William C

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Nikolay Yeriomin regarding the lack of female users providing input, it may be another reflection of the number of users of each gender? Or perhaps they don't see it as a burning issue either.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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We are gonna end this stupidity with your own example.
Hunger games.
The Male and female votes add up to 633,897.
Total # of votes is 789,173.
There are 155,276 that do dot chose to give their sex.
Men don't seem to care about giving their identity as men.
Women generally do care and feel it is an invasion of their privacy.
And don't give me some silly argument about that number is the same split right down the middle as male female.
Without knowing the data contained within the "Chose not to identify" your argument is at best SILLY!
Also you have literally been the only one pushing this nutty idea.
No one has spent any time on this on your side of the debate.
You are championing nothing good here for society as a hole.
You are creating a divisive counterproductive wedge between all people on earth.
If, and I mean a really BIG IF this was really a problem, a solution does not exist.
If 95% of the choose not to identify are female then the voting reflects the current western civilization statistical data of the census figures of male and females, then there is no male bias. PERIOD.
Here are the stats

(Edited)
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IMDbmember

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It seems impossible to me for IMDb ratings to be in any way a trustworthy reflection of the opinions of the movie-viewing public at large.  IMDb doesn't collect enough information on voters for that purpose, for one, but even if it did, you're still dealing with data from a self-selected group (i.e. IMDb voters), so it can never be akin to a scientific or professional poll.

I also don't know how IMDb weights its overall rating.  It doesn't seem to factor the gender imbalance.  Some say it should, and the proposal here seems to be a different approach to seemingly rectify that imbalance, but, then, the rating would still be imbalanced in other ways.  What is the age distribution of IMDb voters versus the movie-viewing public at large?  Geographical distribution?  Isn't there an obvious and potentially bigger imbalance than sex between native English-language audiences, especially Americans, and others, for instance?  What about data that IMDb doesn't track?

For the record, since a couple posters seem to be keeping count, my position on the original proposal is ambivalence.  The seemingly misplaced importance people, myself included, tend to put into IMDb ratings interests me, though.  Anyways, below are a couple articles on this issue I was thinking of, if anyone's interested.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-if-online-movie-ratings-werent-based-almost-entirely-on-wh...

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/which-film-ranking-site-should-i-trust-rotten-tomatoes-imdb-metacrit...
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Nick Burfle

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Agree with most of what you said here.  I would caveat that when I'm trying to decide what to watch, even imperfect data is better than none.  I use IMDB's ratings occasionally to make that decision; it counterbalances the more artsy-oriented Rotten Tomatoes or Metacritic ratings.  And even with the data available (other than reading reviews ahead of time, since they have too many unacknowledged spoilers), it's still a crap-shoot!  I may think the difference between an IMDB 8 and a 6 irrelevant, but between a 6 and a 2 gives me pause for thought.
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Brett William C

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Agreed Nick Burfle. Even the most well received movies are usually only in the high sevens or low rights on the average. Ultimately individuals are the best judge of what they will like but if you've got a choice of two or more options for an evening out a rating might be the tipping point.