I had a review deleted and then IMdB reinstated it and now it's deleted again. Can you help, please?

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I had a review deleted and then IMdB reinstated it and now it's deleted again. I think it's being targeted for censorship because it talked about gender issues. It was a very popular and highly upvoted review of the 2017 Murder on the Orient Express. Can you reinstate it again, please? The IMdB person who reinstated it before is "Michelle." You can read the original thread titled "My review was deleted and it did not violate the guidelines. How do I appeal? This is targeted politicized censorship." here: https://getsatisfaction.com/imdb/topics/my-review-was-deleted-and-it-did-not-violate-the-guidelines-...
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Amy Luna

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Posted 3 months ago

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ACT_1

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( This may get merged with your other message )


Murder on the Orient Express  (2017)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3402236/reference
Kenneth Branagh   ...  Hercule Poirot 
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3402236/reviews - 735 Reviews

- - -

amylunabelly
IMDb member since December 2015
https://www.imdb.com/user/ur64187819/
https://www.imdb.com/user/ur64187819/reviews - 5 Reviews

YOU see anything here ? ?
https://www.imdb.com/user/ur64187819/comments-deleted

This goes back to
https://www.imdb.com/user/ur64187819/reviews

- - -

See:

Deleted Reviews coming back any time soon?
https://getsatisfaction.com/imdb/topics/deleted-reviews-coming-back-any-time-soon

What was previously found via
http://www.imdb.com/user/ur0000000/comments-deleted
Any news here, imdb staff?
.

(Edited)
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Amy Luna

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It would appear that IMdB is a house divided against itself. My review was approved, then deleted, then reinstated, then deleted again. As I originally said, I think this points to bias in the IMdB editorial staff. Which makes all of IMdB reviews suspect, if there's a bias about which reviews are allowed and which are censored--and why. Rotten Tomatoes has taken action to avoid this bias. At least they are addressing the situation. It's just part and parcel of how so much of media is still holding on desperately to archaic gender binary tropes, from what movies get made, to what reviews get a platform and which ones don't. Here's the content of my review:

We actually know what Agatha Christie would have thought of Kenneth Branaugh's bastardization of "Murder on the Orient Express." She predicted, in "Mrs. McGinty's Dead," that some idiot would dramatize her books by adding sex and violence that was not in her original work and hypermasculinizing Poirot, while dumbing down her expert character development in a way that insults the audience's intelligence. She knew it had to happen. And it has.

So much about this movie was so bad, it was laughable. Branaugh's heavy handed direction--"Look at me everybody! I'm so clever! I'm going to put Poirot on top of the train! underneath the train! on the side of the train! And film the train from every possible angle like a fight scene from the Batman TV series!" was the worst kind of in your face grandstanding directing. The shots from above--and I mean directly ABOVE--the action were simply ridiculous.

Branaugh even MADE SURE we ALL KNEW his Poirot was HETEROSEXUAL by repeated non sequitur contrived references to a young, thin, pretty, white female love interest in a photo who had about as many lines (none) as the "prostitute" added to a scene with the creeped up Monsieur Bouc character, whose only line was to gush over meeting Poirot, when she wasn't simpering like a child. I honestly have never been so repulsed by a handsome male character in my life as Bouc's predatory lecher.

What the heck was Branaugh thinking? The only thing worse than dumbing down and sexing up the story with psychopathic violence and creepy lechers was the hitting- you-over-the-head-with-oh-so-unsubtle white savior references to the terrible evils of RACISM!!! Please, someone save us from Hollywood white male liberals bending over backwards to be politically correct about race and thinking they are sooooo progressive while maintaining the worst female madonna/whore lampshade character tropes and adding stabbings, guns, fist fights and shootings not in the original story. 

"Yes, I took a masterpiece and made it into a self serving piece of crap--but that's OK, because there's a black doctor who gets to make some great speeches about how his white male friend helped him get into med school."

So...let's review. Branaugh ADDED to Christie's original story 1) Poirot's righteous finger pointing at the horrors of racism (adding an empowered black MALE character) and 2) Poirot chuckling with his buddy (wink wink) about buying and selling women for sex. In 1934. In Istanbul. Creating a disempowered female character known as "the prostitute" who does not even get a name and whose entire narrative purpose is to stroke Branaugh/Poirot's ego and 3) adding a female love interest whose only narrative purpose is to proof Branaugh/Poirot's "manhood" who is literally an inanimate photograph and 4) male characters punching walls, fist fighting, stabbing and shooting people and 5) giving Poirot himself characteristics completely antithetical to Christie's beloved detective. As if we needed any more proof of Hollywood's hypocrisy in the treatment of women and sex in our films and normalizing toxic gender stereotypes in both male and female characters.

And the script! It read like some high school freshman TRYING to sound erudite. "Overt overture?" Uh...I was waiting for them to serve a "cheesy cheeseburger" in the dining car. Many of the lines would have been more appropriate in a Steven Seagal movie--"Why won't you DIE!" What!??!?!

Only a fool would take one of the masterpieces of British literature by the great Agatha Christie and make it into a pandering show of ego and arrogance, while insulting the audience's intelligence and perverting Christie's moral dilemma on the definition of justice into a tale of vigilantism and revenge by a bunch of thugs little better than the man they murdered. I am HORRIFIED to think a whole new generation will think THIS detritus has anything to do with Agatha Christie's novel. If I could, I would give this film negative stars.

Do yourself a favor. Watch David Suchet's virtuoso performance in the 2010 Murder on the Orient Express. That production did Christie justice and then some. Or better yet, read the book. Remember reading? Then you'll know that Branaugh should be tarred and feathered for what he did to her epic magnum opus.

No, Ken, you didn't have to mutate Christie's story to pander to today's audiences. She is literally the best selling author of all time. Christie needs no help. She appealed to people's humanity and intelligence, creating one of the most popular characters in the history of literature, not to mention a pantheon of assertive female characters and humane male characters, breaking stereotypes 80 years ago that, unfortunately, still survive today. All you did was play to the lowest common denominator, appealing to our baser instincts while maintaining arguably the most brilliant whodunnit plot of all time. So, new audiences think this "cheesy cheeseburger" is great, not realizing that they could have had filet mignon.

And the tragedy is--she even predicted you would do it. Strip her legacy of it's intelligence and humanity, add male and female stereotypes and neanderthal violence all the while using her brilliant plot to make money. 

And you STILL did it.

(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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I think the whole editorial staff should do a thumbs up or down on this review. The findings of the vote puts it in or out.

Personally I give it a thumbs down on incessant whining about Branaugh.
Nothing personal mind you!
Cheers
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Jeorj Euler

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The movie got off on the wrong foot, and did it on purpose.
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IMDbmember

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That's a well-written review--especially compared to the vast majority of trash passed off as reviews and published on the website.  Agree with it or not--and I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know--it presents a solid argument with evidence and context.

I don't know about "archaic gender binary tropes" having anything to do with the rejection of the review, although IMDb does seem to be overly and inconsistently aggressive sometimes in barring politics in reviews.  It would be ridiculous if that were the case here.

Also, I've had reviews myself that were declined for such seemingly-acceptable words as "bastardization," while others with the same words are approved.

I wish the staff would spend time clearing the review sections of illiterate and uninteresting one-to-two sentence clutter instead of bothering to try to purge the heap of any of the few actual reviews hidden in there.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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the staff would spend time clearing the review sections
I do that in my spare time as a contributor. The staff does not do it. They just approve the deletion contributions. Or Not!
(Edited)
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Will, Official Rep

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Thanks Amy. Ed is correct, though we should have rejected the attempt to remove the review. I've reinstated it now and taken further internal steps to ensure that this doesn't happen again.

Regards,
Will
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ACT_1

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amylunabelly
https://www.imdb.com/user/ur64187819/reviews - 6 Reviews

https://www.imdb.com/review/rw3856470/
Murder on the Orient Express (2017)
1/10 
A Blasphemous Offensive Steaming Pile of Dung 
12 November 2017
We actually know what Agatha Christie would have thought ...

298 out of 522 found this helpful.
- - -

Murder on the Orient Express  (2017)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3402236/reference
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3402236/reviews - 736 Reviews
.

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Thanks, Will.  For what it's worth, I think that while it may be possible to review a film that addresses real life without commenting on real world events in the review, as the guidelines seem to imply would be required, the result would surely be meaningless.  And I would be sorely disappointed, if for example a review of a documentary failed to identify matters that weren't addressed but should have been.  Amy's review does not contain the ranting and slurring that is common in some of the worst reviews, and you're right, it never should have been rejected.
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Amy Luna

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Thanks, Will. Much appreciated. I hope the steps you took solve the problem permanently. 
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Amy Luna

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Hey, Will. I'm troubled that "contributors" like Ed can just randomly submit reviews to be deleted (since it seems that happened to mine twice). I wonder if you would take the time to read through this comment thread in which he bullies and gaslights me with personal attacks, insists that his personal bias is objective and repeatedly changes the subject to score points. I'm wondering how and why my review was able to be deleted not once but twice, since we've determined 1) it does not violate IMDb policies and 2) It's in the top 2% (out of 736 user reviews) of reviews that users found "helpful." Perhaps Ed's troubling dynamics also exist within your staff? Possibly?
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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I did not have to look far to find that your review is "The" #1 Downvoted review.
224 Dislikes/Not helpful.
I only point out the obvious.
The truth is not gaslighting.
The truth is not Bullying.
And I only report reviews that don't review the title. Not ones I disagree with.
When I disagree with a review I vote on it.
Don't attempt to extrapolate what you believe to be true from your biased opinion of what constitutes truth.
If you'll recall way up above here I said "Nothing Personal"!
You are the attacker. I am replying to you with truths and facts from your own statements. Nothing more.
Cheers

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Amy Luna

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Now Ed is doubling down with more bad logic, gaslighting--and now we've got false equivalencies added to the mix.

1) "I said 'nothing personal.'"

According to Ed's logic, if I rob you and say "I'm not robbing you." then I haven't robbed you. Good to know. That will help to keep my bank account flush. :)

2) Talking about a person's specific stated ideas (as they stated them) and their demonstrated behaviors (gaslighting, etc.) is fair game and is not evidence that a person needs to examine their soul. On the contrary, both are necessary to a civil, thinking society. Making global statements about a person's character (such as them needing to examine their soul) is by definition controlling, bullying and gaslighting. It's also the ad hominem fallacy of argumentation. Just bad form overall.

3) People who bully don't like boundaries and having their ideas and behaviors criticized, so they will characterize boundaries and critiques of their stated ideas and demonstrated behaviors as "attacking." People who have normalized bullying also don't hear their own attacks--because they've normalized bullying--like telling someone to examine their soul. So, they don't hear their own bullying and hear others' boundaries (and calling them out on their bullying) as bullying THEM. Hence the false equivalency "You're the attacker."

Uh...nope. :)

4) My review had the second highest overall votes. Which means, that of the 736 reviews, mine was extremely high ranking for how many people read it. My review is ranked 13th for "helpfulness" with means that a 57% upvote ratio is actually in the top 2% of all reviews--making that a darn high ratio, comparatively speaking. My review also had the most down votes, sure. But that's more a function of the popularity of the review than its value to readers. It's "helpful" "upvoted" value is in the top 2% of all reviews. Period. That's a fact, Jack. :) Ed's negative opinion of my review is clearly and firmly in the minority of all those who read my review. His incessant need to try and skew "his truth" about my review being "the truth" about my review, despite the evidence to the contrary (a literal vote tally), continues to be a troubling indication that there is more at work here, under the surface, than a good faith assessment of my review.

Btw, in case you're wondering how I've developed the ability to analyze people's words so well, you can thank Agatha Christie for that.

Which is why I felt so passionately about Branaugh's bastardization of her work. We need more critical thinkers debating ideas with solid logic and less poor reasoning, bullying and gaslighting in this world. We also need more strong, righteous, persistent voices willing to call out bullying, gaslighting--and the unethical appropriation of a revered artist's work for personal profit. <3









(Edited)
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Amy Luna

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As to my claim that there are "archaic gender binary tropes" at work here, I think we can see some evidence of bias, just in this comment thread. Ed Jones (who apparently reviews reviews for deletion, if I'm understanding him correctly) heard my review as "incessant whining." While the user IMDbmember characterized the same review as "well written" that presents a "solid argument with evidence and context." 

There is research that men with an unconscious implicit sexist bias hear women's voices as "whiney," regardless of content. That confirmation bias then negatively colors their assessment of the content.

The person (male or female) pointing out the problem is not the problem. When a director perverts a work of literature as blatantly and unethically as Branaugh did (and as I demonstrated with a "solid argument with evidence and context") calling him out on it is not "whining." On the contrary, since my review is the second highest upvoted review out of hundreds, it would appear that Ed's opinion is not shared by the majority of people reading my review.

Again, I believe this points to the need for education for the people involved in the process of how IMDb reviews its reviews. 
(Edited)
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Jeorj Euler

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Well, the same review can be both crass (or even "whiney") and informative with solid arguments, at the same time. This probably has nothing to do with the reviewer being female and nothing to do with a reader of the review being male. The review is informative, but as I indicated before (in the previous thread), I find the references to dung to be in poor taste. On the other hand, the movie literally depicts dung (from a hoofed beast) for a short part of a scene so it is all good. Haha.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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thought of Kenneth Branaugh's bastardization of "Murder on the Orient Express." She predicted, in "Mrs. McGinty's Dead," that some idiot would dramatize
so bad, it was laughable. Branaugh's heavy handed direction--"Look at me everybody! I'm so clever!
Branaugh even MADE SURE we ALL KNEW his Poirot was HETEROSEXUAL
REALLY CAPITAL LETTERS no less

What the heck was Branaugh thinking? The only thing worse
"Yes, I took a masterpiece and made it into a self serving piece of crap--but that's OK, because there's a black doctor who gets to make some great speeches
So...let's review. Branaugh ADDED to Christie's original story 1) Poirot's righteous finger pointing at the horrors of racism
whose entire narrative purpose is to stroke Branaugh/Poirot's ego
is to proof Branaugh/Poirot's "manhood"
Then you'll know that Branaugh should be tarred and feathered
???????????
I rest my case.
By the way, I agree 100% with your assessment. Your review however is long winded and could use serious editing. In the days of Newspapers not so long ago, an editor would have handed this back to you and told you to tighten it up.

Here is a better way that mentions Mr B. just once.

Kenneth Branaugh has ruined Agatha Christie's Poirot to the point where he's no longer Hercule Poirot. His Direction is heavy handed, his portrayal of the master sleuth is laughable, his excessive artistic license with the material is undesirable and unwarranted, and in this reviewers opinion deserves a public tar and feathering.

Add more after this if you like to further your review. But to mention his name that many times is "excessive".

Cheers
(Edited)
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Amy Luna

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1) There are many ways to characterize my writer's voice. Characterizations like strong, sassy, bold, brazen, and audacious would view it as a unique and entertaining asset and invite readers to partake of my prose. Negative characterizations like "whiney" are more likely to silence a voice or direct others away from it. 

2) We can infer that hundreds of people found my voice a positive, since they upvoted it, while hundreds didn't. So that's evidence that the jury is out on whether my voice is a negative or a positive. In fact, the split votes would seem to say more about our culture than my voice and support the argument that we live in a world in which many people like a woman's strong voice and many don't--to the point of deleting my popular review not once, but twice.

3) And AS I ALREADY SAID, there is RESEARCH to support the view that we are a society divided against itself in which some folks hear a sassy woman challenging the status quo as being uppity and unfeminine while others cheer her on. And that even people who don't believe they have that bias against women writers, in fact, do carry it implicitly. J.K. Rowing was so aware of this bias against women writers that she deliberately used her initials as an author instead of her female name. One wonders if the Harry Potter series would have sold as many copies if the person who wrote it had a "girly" name.

4) It's interesting, in light of all this evidence, that you would err on the side of this "probably" not being about gender. 

Hmmmmm...
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Nick Burfle

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lol?  Much better writing, except for the incitement of violence against a real, living person, which I have flagged for removal in other reviews.
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Jeorj Euler

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Somehow I missed that part, Nick Burfle. That part should be removed.
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Amy Luna

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Ed,

Some people hear all caps words as emphasis, some hear them as "whiney." Again, I believe that how a person hears an all caps word or two tells you more about the person hearing them than the person using them. It tells you what the person is projecting onto the blanks slate of the writer.

Again, the person pointing out the problem is not the problem. My review focused on Branaugh because he was 1) the director and 2) the star and 3) his sins were so numerous, unethical, hypocritical and egregious. The repetition was warranted and appropriate.

As for your attempt to pivot the discussion away from your possible implicit bias in using the word "whiney" by offering me unsolicited editing advice:

The issue here is whether my review violated any policy that would warrant it's deletion. Not whether my review requires an edit. A good writer also stays on topic. ;)

See, I can use italics when they are available!

In fact, I'm so excited by their availability that I'm using them excessively! 

:D!
  
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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there is RESEARCH to support the view
There is research to support ANY VIEW. If you are debating any topic, research can be produced that supports opposing views. So to state that research backs you up is to put it mildly, "laughable".
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Amy Luna

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Nick Burfle

What is the incitement to violence? 

The only thing I can see that would come close would be "someone save us from." 

Again, what a person projects onto a blank slate tells you more about the person than the writer. "Someone save us from" means violence? In whose world? 

Other possible projections onto that blank slate:

1) Stop funding movies by these types of people
2) Remove these types of people from their jobs
3) Give other voices more opportunity

So, please, do not libel me as "inciting violence" against a "real living person" with no evidence of such other than your own projection.

:)
(Edited)
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Amy Luna

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Ok, so now we know that one of the people deciding which reviews are deleted does not believe in "research" and finds arguments supported with research evidence "laughable." 

Hmmmmm....

As to your claim that there's research supporting ANY VIEW (nice use of all caps, there!)...

I would invite you to produce published, peer-reviewed research that supports the following views

1) Humans can fly (using only their bodies)
2) The sky is green
3) Canines can speak and write in English
4) Julius Caesar was not stabbed to death in the Roman Senate
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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We are talking serious subjects, not idiotic ones.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Einsteins theory of relativity.
The Big Bang theory.
Global Warming.
Etc.
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Amy Luna

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Well, I'm not talking anything any longer that is an attempt to derail from the point. :)

Oh, and I guess "tarred and feathered" is the incitement to violence? 

Because Home Depot is having a special on DIY tar and feather kits this week? 

;)

I think yer reachin' 
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Amy Luna

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Well, I'm not talking anything any longer that is an attempt to derail from the point. :)

Oh, and I guess "tarred and feathered" is the incitement to violence? 

Because Home Depot is having a special on DIY tar and feather kits this week? 

;)

I think yer reachin' 
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Nick said it.
I thought it, but did not broach the subject.
You confirmed it.
Oh, and I guess "tarred and feathered" is the incitement to violence?
Look, your review was "angry".
It lashed out in an angry tone.
It rhetorically asked that violence be done to an individual.
If you cannot see this, then I wont say what you need.
Look inward please and "Be Kind..... Rewind" Your soul that is!
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Amy Luna

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And thanks for acknowledging that gender bias is a "serious subject." :)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Angry again I see.
“We are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike.”
― Maya Angelou
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Nick Burfle

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I must once again apologize for my sloppy communication.  Yes, the "incitement to violence" was referring to Ed's tar and feather comment, which I assume he used as an example of hyperbole and not as a serious recommendation of how to express one's opinion.  (One review I read a long time ago urged whoever saw director Peter Greenaway to punch him in the nose, which I feel goes too far.  )

I may not be fond of your review, but I wholeheartedly agree that it does not come close to anything that warrants removal.

I'll move on, and wish the both of you enjoyable movies to come.
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Amy Luna

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For the third time, tone is projected on to writing. You hear it as "angry." That's one possible interpretation.

It is disturbing to me that a person affecting which reviews are deleted has consistently demonstrated such insular views. Like that he gets to decided what tone is THE tone of a writer rather than realizing that there is more than one truth to how to interpret writing.

And further, that a person challenging the idea that there is only on "truth" needs to examine their soul? So, you've now added gaslighting to your list of derailing strategies because someone correctly called you out on the bias of characterizing a female writer as "whiney."

I don't interact with people who gaslight rather than debating ideas, so I will not be responding further. :)

That's called "healthy boundaries."

Also because I believe Ed has sufficiently proven my point for the need to more closely monitor the ideas, attitudes and behaviors of those making decisions about reviews. 
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Amy Luna

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"tar and feather" is idiomatic. Not literal.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Aye Carumba
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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298 out of 522? Seriously!
You made it sound like you had overwhelming up-votes.
43% of the viewers find your review not good.

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Amy Luna

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For those reading this thread, I'd like to summarize some troubling phenomenon illustrated repeatedly here:

1) The tendency to project onto women's voices the characterizations of "whiney" "angry" and "excessive" etc. rather than "strong" "righteous" and "persistent" for example.

2) The tendency to believe there is only one truth to how to interpret writing---your truth. In other words, not being hip to the fact that everyone brings their own bias to how they perceive the world.

3) The tendency to take criticism personally and respond by attacking the person making the criticism, instead of addressing the content of their argument.

4) The tendency to try to score points by putting words in the person's mouth whom you disagree with such as "you made it sound like." Which is a form of gaslighting. What I said was 1) I have the second most upvotes of any reviews (I do) and 2) hundreds of people both liked and didn't like my review (which is also factually true). You can't "make" facts "sound" like anything. The listener projects onto the facts what they "sound like." I could add, too, that my review is currently ranked 13th in "helpful" out of over 700 user reviews. :)

5) The tendency to avoid talking about the subject and bringing up a bunch of other stuff to deflect attention from the fact that the person you are debating with is making good points that you are not addressing.

6) How women who stand up for themselves, have a strong voice, don't back down to bullying and gaslighting and hold their frame are told they need to examine their souls.

Hmmmmm...

Have a great day everyone and Thanks again IMDb for reinstating my review! I have faith in you again!. :D!



(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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43% and #1 Not Helpful
Truth
Fact
Your words have taken up the majority in this post.
Truth
Fact
You have made my nothing personal statement, "Personal".
Truth
Fact
Reply all you like as I am,
Done!
Bye
Cheers