IMDb needs to stop deadnaming trans people

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IMDb should not put trans people’s old names out there. The site should make an exception for the policy of not removing factual information, since this is extremely disrespectful to all trans people working in the film industry.

Trans people’s deadnames aren’t information that people are entitled to see. It’s equivalent to posting someone’s home address. Just because it’s true, doesn’t mean people should see it. It is information that can and will be used against them. This needs to stop.
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Kati Knitt

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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Sorry to disagree but that is giving them special treatment that no one else gets at IMDb.
Also Governmental agency's and Birth Records are never changed. You are what you are at birth. From this you cannot hide.
John Wayne was Marion Michael Morrison
Cary Grant was Archibald Leach
Kirk Douglas was Issur Danielovitch
Karl Malden was Mladen Sekulovich
There are thousands in the database that have their birth name listed right along with their stage names.
It is interesting trivia.
IMDb is a database of Hard and Trivial Facts about Actors.
No one has "Special" Status.
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Blah Blah Blah. you said that already
Go away please.
Thanks
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Kati Knitt

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There's no reason to be disrespectful, Ed
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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You are being disrespectful Kati.
Blah Blah Blah.
You are repeating yourself over and over.
Please go to to twitter and facebook.
The p[olicy discussion is over.
Wait
Yes "wait" for a reply from staff.
I'll bet you can't.
Be respectful and wait.
PLEASE
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Jeorj Euler

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Ed, I would not tell them to go away. It may be better to ask them to prove everything they claim, as they are in no position whatsoever to make demands.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Kai talked about having long identified with “effeminate, foppish” males in literature, from Romeo to recurrent types in romance novels, and about adoring Julie Andrews as a gender-pretzeling nightclub performer in “Victor/Victoria.” He wore, that day, another dress shirt and vest — blue and red, floral-patterned, flashy. Underneath, as always, he wore a binder. He said he’d decided on top surgery, the removal of his breasts, as a next step, to be taken soon after graduation.



But he was still debating hormones, whose effects are unpredictable — frighteningly so for Kai. There would be facial hair, sparse or thick. His voice would drop to an unknown degree. His wish was to be perceived as more masculine yet not male, feminine yet not female. What precisely he desired, physically, was a puzzle he was forever trying to solve. And he treasured singing as a mezzo-soprano; he dreaded that loss. But when I asked about the first time he felt the heavy punching bag swinging back to strike him, or any hint that he couldn’t fit into conventional notions of gender, Kai replied with resolution. “There are ways I could speak retrospectively,” he said. “The way I was terrified of getting my ears pierced and fled the mall when I was 11. The way I freaked out over my period. There’s a temptation to shape a narrative about how it’s inherent in me to be nonbinary. But I want to go the other way and say, we’re all born nonbinary. We learn gender. And at some point, some of us can’t stand it anymore.”

Kai grew up in the Maryland suburbs outside Washington; both his parents are economists. He came out to them as genderqueer a year and a half ago, and they, as he put it, were willing “to step through the door” he held wide for them, the door into his way of seeing himself. They read a piece of creative writing he gave them, a meditation using Dadaism to explicate the nonsense of either-or. His mother asked if she could buy him new clothes. “Shopping for clothes was something we’d always done,” he said. “It was her way of saying, ‘I want to keep being part of your life.’ That was really stepping through the door. And then, all the nerve-rackingness of shopping in the men’s section of a department store and trying on pants and worrying about how people are looking at you and reading your gender, it would have been really hard to do on my own. But my mother was there. Just like when we’d shopped together before. And that made it normal.”

[Read about gender-neutral design for children.]

Not everyone in Kai’s world, though, has been so willing. Coming out requires preparation, putting on emotional armor. On a road trip through Pennsylvania, he confided recently in one of his closest childhood friends, hoping for the intimacy of the sleepovers they’d once had. The woman listened. She wasn’t critical. But as they drove, and as Kai invited her repeatedly to ask questions, she remained disengaged. Recounting his friend’s resistance, pain caught at Kai’s quick words, making him pause. The pain came both from without, from the friend’s refusal, and from within. “One of the hardest things for me,” he said, “is to say to myself, Yes, I’m real.” His voice trembled. “I don’t make sense. I have this theoretical framework which I think is better for the world, a framework where we have different bodies but where gender is almost entirely socially constructed, where people can articulate whatever they want about their gender. But if the theory is right, then I wouldn’t care at all about transitioning” to some undetermined physiological midpoint.

Logically and philosophically, for Kai, bodies signified nothing; physiology was without meaning. “But I do — I care, very much,” he said. Logic and longing were irreconcilable. And for someone as smart and scientific as Kai, this was barely endurable. The contradiction between anatomical irrelevance and anatomical yearning was an existential challenge. “What I’m feeling is that there’s this internal, eternal thing that is always going to be saying, ‘You as you exist are not real.’ ”

He was on the brink of tears. “I’m sorry,” he said. “I didn’t mean to get all dramatic on you.”

When Salem was 8, their family moved from Plaistow, N.H., to Indian Land, S.C. Sometime before then, they recalled, their sister was learning to paint her fingernails and asked to do Salem’s. They let their sister use only clear polish, for fear that they would like the colors too well. In South Carolina, they endured almost a decade of bullying — for being “borderline obese from big stress eating,” Salem told me (since then Salem has slimmed down by running late at night, when the roads around their town are empty), for their good grades (until, in high school, anxiety kept them home so often that their grades bottomed out and they barely graduated) and maybe, they can’t be sure, because other kids detected a difference that Salem wasn’t yet admitting to themself. Salem was called porky and brown-noser and faggot and punched in the chest and hit in the groin with footballs and dodge balls and a makeshift ball and chain wielded at high velocity by a boy they considered a friend.



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Salem withdrew to a mostly online existence, in which friendships — with three classmates, counting the bully with the ball and chain — consisted of playing video games, each kid in a separate, solo space at home but communing over shared screens, gunning and grenading enemy fighters. Salem invested so much time in the warfare of one game that they eventually rose past two million other players, they said, murmuring with enough modesty to be believed, and were fleetingly ranked first on the game’s leader board.

“I was very angry at that time, really miserable,” they said. Online, they and their friends lured solitary, hapless players into the front seat of their armored vehicle with promises of safety. Salem, sitting behind, shot them in the back of the head. In the mirror, Salem despised their new facial hair; they tried to overcome the repulsion by growing mutton chops and a scraggly beard. They spent uncountable hours on YouTube channels that espoused white nationalism and denounced, as one alt-right ranter declared, the “feminization” and “mass, uncontrolled third-world immigration” that was destroying Western civilization. They steered their three friends to these channels: “I was spreading my awful views.” With these friends, Salem mocked binary trans people and cracked jokes about nonbinary gender and gender fluidity, saying there was no such thing. But they didn’t let themself think too much about the terms they scorned, “because,” they told me, “I guess my self was trying to protect itself. If I had thought about gender for any length of time, I might have come to some uncomfortable conclusions.”



For Salem, as for so many, the internet wound up being an inadvertent route to self-recognition. In the late summer of 2016 — soon after Salem finished high school and their family moved to North Carolina, where their father had a new job managing an auto-repair shop in Raleigh — they first stared at manga featuring feminine men having sex with women. Salem was attracted to the women, while finding themself wishing they looked like those men. Before that, something else had happened online. Despite their alt-right allegiance, they were drawn to the economic ideas of Bernie Sanders’s presidential campaign. After the November election, Salem’s new politics took them to anarchist sites and from there to videos posted by people announcing themselves as nonbinary. They were taken with the caustic style of a video called “I Am Genderqueer and Wtf That Means” by a YouTuber named ContraPoints.

Yet self-recognition, for Salem, wasn’t liberating; it was the opposite. It required secrecy. It deepened Salem’s hiding, their isolation. The pain of self-concealment accumulated for months, until, Salem said, “I would rather have gotten kicked out of the house and become homeless and died than go on the way I was living.”

[Read about social media as a tool for nonbinary people.]

They decided to tell their sister, who is two years older, before telling their parents. The talk, in the summer of 2017, did not go well. Their sister, in Salem’s memory, was bewildered and dismissive: “I explained to her that I planned to present myself as more feminine and change my name to something more feminine, and she was like, Well, if you don’t feel like you’re a woman, why would you want to do any of that?” Salem had no coherent answer. Language eluded them. She later told them it must be a phase, that Salem would get over it, all of which, for Salem, felt like a drubbing of their reality.

Their sister remembered this conversation somewhat differently, when I spoke with her by phone, with Salem on the line. “I was confused about what they were telling me,” she said. “I think I reacted fairly positively.”



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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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gromit82, Champion

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Ed: That link goes to an unrelated thread that neither Kati nor Col participated in.

The only thread I can find that both Kati and Col participated in would be https://getsatisfaction.com/imdb/topics/birth-names-arent-showing-up-on-profiles, but I don't know if that's what you meant to link to.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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My Bad
Thanks.
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Kelly L.

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Do you have credits under the old name or not?

If so, it's pretty difficult to retroactively change how you're credited in a film, show, etc. that many people likely have a copy of. Therefore, regardless of why you may have later changed your name, your credits need to match how you were credited in said work. (This policy applies to everyone, even if they may personally want to become disassociated with their past work - including for example former porn stars.)

If your IMDb history is entirely after you (socially) transitioned, and the issue is IMDb putting your birth name in the biography section, you probably have a better defense (especially if you're not out to the public, since this runs contrary to IMDb prohibiting mentioning medical information on their pages - and in most cases a transperson's birth name effectively gives away their history). However, if there is a pragmatic reason for mentioning the birth name (like matching up work history that is under that name) then you are less likely to be successful.

If you look at Wikipedia's policy on handling transpeople's birth names it follows a similar spirit as my opinion - if you were notable under the old name and mentioning it is necessary to meaningfully identify what you're known for then they list the name, otherwise they typically don't (or at least not mention it in the first sentence like they generally do).
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Shall I start telling stories?
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Kelly L.

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You ARE getting correctly named - exactly how you appear in the credits of your works. What you are asking does put a burden on others - when someone can't make a connection between how you are credited in your works and what is shown on IMDb that leads to confusion and questions about the accuracy of both the credits and IMDb.

You have the right to go by whatever name you like, identify as you wish, and ask people to respect that in the present and future. You cannot go back and change how you were credited in works that were created before you started using your current name. You cannot discard part of your history or split your filmography just because you don't want to be associated with what you did in the past (this goes for any reason, not just for being transgender).

I am not denying science or disrespecting transgender people. This policy of credits being under the name that you were credited under does not exist because IMDb does not respect transgender people. It exists for a practical reason - to match credits and filmography.
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Kelly L.

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Sorry about the duplicate comment - technical issues (I tried deleting one but it didn't process until it was too late).
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Kelly replying to Kati is just prolonging this agony.
If no one replies she cannot keep repeating herself.
The only way for this to end, is to not reply to her ridiculous request.
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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Kelly L., removed the duplicate comment. 
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Jeorj Euler

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Kati Knitt

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I'm not surprised that the outcome is pretty negative, given there are mostly cis people here and they usually don't give a f*** about trans issues.
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Kelly L.

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I do care about trans issues, but you need to understand that although people can and should respect your chosen identity going forward, you cannot change how you were referred to in the past before your transitioned. Just like if your birth name had been carved in some monument prior to your transition, you can't expect things like that to be retroactively changed.
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Kati Knitt

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Yeah, I can.
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Rob Sieger

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"Yeah, I can" -- Kati, you can expect WTF you want; hold your breath. It is understandable, I suppose, considering that the all-powerful LGBTQ cartel always gets its way even though it likes to pretend, increasingly flimsily, that it is the underdog not the overlord.
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Captain Pipsqueak

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They don't deserve special treatment. They'll be credited with the name they were born with and like it.
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Jeorj Euler

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So? People with normal eyesight do not have the problems that the blind do, and with context, there is vice versa. People with normal hearing do not have problems that the deaf do, and with context, there is vice versa. Those are just two examples. Disinterest in establishing double standards or making accommodations for a particular class is not equivalent with disrespect.
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Kati Knitt

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Blind people get dogs that lead them around, why doesn't everyone get dogs that lead them around? I feel so left out as a person with eye sight. This is clearly discrimination of people with eye sight and we need to stop this double standard.
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Captain Pipsqueak

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Frankly the fact that the actor in question has decided they'd rather have a vagina now doesn't fall under the definition of useful information here.

Have you tried Wikipedia?

They care about that sort of thing.
(Edited)
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Jeorj Euler

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IMDb is not responsible for "everyone". Wikipedia is also not responsible for "everyone". The list goes on.
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Jake Freedman

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If something as trivial like 'deadnaming' can cause a traughny to off itself, then maybe they're insane? DUH?
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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It's a very sensitive issue and although I sympathize with those who experience the problem, there is a side to it that compares badly to home address: in case of home address it's extremely unlikely that one would be able to find one watching some of the movies in filmography, while with credits it is practically a certain fact. 

That and even if fully deleted attributes will be reinstated on short notice by users who casually re-check the credits for differences.
(Edited)
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Kelly L.

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How about this if you're so intent on removing any references to your birth name: Contact the producers of every work mentioned on IMDb that you worked on under your old name, and ask them to change your name in the credits on releases going forward. Even if such a thing were possible, people will still have copies that were released before so you probably won't have success with that either.

You need to understand that there is a difference between people in the present (and post-coming-out past) refusing to acknowledge your gender identity, and asking that references in credits that were accurate at the time (and practically impossible to change in said works) be altered.
(Edited)
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Kati Knitt

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Putting a deadname out in public is not comparable to showing old porn credits, that diminishes the significance of deadnaming. It'd be a reasonable exception that grants trans people's dignity and makes it less likely that they will be attacked by people using their deadname.
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Kelly L.

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Okay again, so let's say that you get your wish. What kind of message do you think someone should see on IMDb if they watch one of your old works, see your credit with your birth name (and isn't even aware that you later transitioned), and try to look you up based on that? Should IMDb pretend that person never existed or that they are a different person than Kati Knitt? (Once again that isn't fair because under no other circumstances that I know of does IMDb allow a person's filmography to be split between two apparently different people.)
(Edited)
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Kelly L.

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Or, to look at it another way, what about if IMDb pretends you were credited with your current name in a work that you were not, and then someone comes to ask why they do not see a "Kati Knitt" in the credits? Or they pretend you were uncredited when you were?
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Kati Knitt

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My suggestion is that when people search for a person on IMDb with their old name, that IMDb directs them to their page, without making the old name visible anywhere. So the old name would be in some kind of invisible search tag.

I don't think it's a very clean solution, but I don't think that accuracy is as important as the well being of the credited trans person. I wouldn't put "credited as deadname" in either, because that will be a hint for people destined to find out what their deadname is. People should be able to put one and one together when they see the last name is the same and see they are credited as the same role. If the last name of a trans person changes, they could just put their old last name in as an alternate name since last names are not gendered.
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Kelly L.

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One more question for you, Kati: In your case, are you wanting to be "stealth" (i.e. remove any kind of references to you being transgender) on IMDb, or do you not mind being "out" to the public about being trans but just don't want people knowing your deadname? If the former you have a little bit more of an impetus since medical history should be kept private unless there is a practical reason to disclose it (as I said it's arguable if IMDb can practically do that with credits existing under the old name), but with the latter it would be more like anyone else who disliked their birth name and wants to remove any association with it (i.e. the privacy/medical history argument wouldn't hold the same water).
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Implementation is never going to happen.
Why are we discussing this anyway.
The topic is pure nonsense as is the supposition of harm to anyone ever happening.
Guide dog example is hogwash.
This is a non issue. It is an issue perceived only. Lets put up a traffic light on every corner. It Maybe Might save a life.
I want a change in my name to protect me from transgendered people. I need it so that they will be fooled into thinking I'm one of them. That way they wont be in a situation that leads to my early demise. I need that protection now. See how silly that sounds!
Please leave Kati alone.
If there is nothing any further said, Kati can type to no one about nothing.

(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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You commit a crime. A bad crime. You Transgenderize. Your old name is supposedly dead. You get arrested for that crime. You defense is ????? Yep you guessed it. "We'll, that was not me"! That person is dead. Do you think that anyone in their "RIGHT" mind is going to acquit you of your responsibility just because your name is "DEAD"! No.

Please move on Kati
You are not giving new info that is logical.
Please cease.
Thanks
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Kati Knitt

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Being trans is a crime? That's your stance? Am I reading correctly?
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Are you serious. Obviously you can't comprehend if you have to ask.
Inflammatory remark Kati.
Please move on
You are not giving new info.
Please cease.
Thanks
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Kati Knitt

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So it is?
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Are you serious. Obviously you can't comprehend if you have to ask.
Inflammatory remark Kati.
Please move on
You are not giving new info.
Please cease.
Thanks
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Elsie

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(Edited)
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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Kati Knitt, IMDb staff haven't answered in this thread yet. While they have rules they understand that these rules can't be perfect for everyone and they are looking for ways to improve that. I can't see any constructive consensus in this sitatuation, but I'm incompetent in it and I won't pretend that I know everything. Some way might exist that will be beneficial to everyone. 

Elsie, you may probably count this as abuse of my admin rights (hence the "Champion"), but I've slighlty redacted one of the links you have posted, in order for it not to feature name directly there (link remains the same, it just doesn't feature the name directly). My intention is to deescalate discussion a bit and I hope it's understandable. 
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Kati Knitt

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Thank you!
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Elsie

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Nikolay Yeriomin You can remove them all for all I care, this is not  a high priority on my agenda I have more important things to do.

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Kati Knitt

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Wow. Just, wow.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Your supporters are jumping ship.
You have become a caricature of unimportance.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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This has now been preserved.
It will live forever. Un-eraseable for eternity.
This is a public forum.
It is out there.
Un-removable.


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Kati Knitt

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This practice outs people as trans without their consent: https://twitter.com/theamycoop/status/922029659117760512

And it actually makes trans people reluctant to work in the film industry: https://twitter.com/maemorrigan/status/1133462355202007040





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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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You have now crossed a line with that comment. If your are supposedly for a cause, then why on earth would you post a url that spreads a story further. Have you no sympathy whatsoever that you would do this to someone to prove an un-provable point?
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Kati Knitt

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If they wouldn't want to share their story, they wouldn't have posted it. So this is just showing how this affects people.
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Kati Knitt

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I am not deadnaming them. I am sharing their stories. Your point is ridiculous.
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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Kati Knitt, but it is a point that stands, nevertheless. 

People who posted your deadname here may argue that they're sharing your story. Have you asked the person before sharing the link here? 
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Kati Knitt

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I didn’t put their deadnames RIGHT THERE. That’s not the same thing!
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Kati Knitt

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I’m not the first one who complained about this.

https://getsatisfaction.com/imdb/topi...

This post is a year old. And IMDb has done nothing. IMDb doesn’t care about trans people.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Confront negative remarks. You might have ignored some transphobic comments your parents made at first, but you may want to start saying something. A polite (not angry) confrontation can help change their attitudes and behaviors.[2] Control your anger and don’t take it out on them. See it as a way to share your views and kindness with them.
  • For example, say, “That was an unkind comment. Please don’t say that.”
  • You can also say, “Please don’t say those things, especially around me. I think all people should be treated with respect, whether they differ from me or not.”


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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Accept them where they’re at. You might have to accept that your parents just don't understand, no matter how hard you try. It’s upsetting when you feel like your parents don’t understand or support you or the things you care about, but it can take time for them to see things differently. Acknowledge their feelings and where they are at.
  • If you’re trans and feel unaccepted, don't completely lose hope for your parents. Tell them that you love them and that they must accept who you really are.
  • Expect it to take a little time. Make sure you are getting what you need without their support in the meanwhile.


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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Consider your risks before coming out. There may be several factors which contribute to coming out to your parents and when that might happen. For example, if you’re under 18, coming out to your transphobic parents might have some large consequences and may make living at home uncomfortable. Your parents may put you in therapy or try to ‘convert’ you. However, if you feel like you’re living a lie or you want to make changes to your body, you may want to come out sooner. Your family might respond just as you expect or they might surprise you.
  • Most importantly, ask yourself if you feel physically and emotionally safe about telling your family that you’re trans.
  • If your parents disown you or cast you out, ask yourself if you’re prepared to live in your own. Do you have enough money to provide for yourself and do you have a place to live?
  • Some people choose to turn 18 and move out of the house before disclosing. It’s up to you.
  • Consider going to a support group or joining an online forum for tips on coming out to your parents and to better prepare yourself. A good forum for this is called "Empty Closets," which you can visit at https://forum.emptyclosets.com/index.php.


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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Ask for acceptance. While you may not be ready to come out as transgender and tell your parents at this moment, do talk to them and at least let them in on how you feel. Try to educate them about transgender issues and what you are going through. Understanding what you are going through could help them accept you. If they aren’t ready to hear that you’re transgender or you’re not ready to tell them, ask for them to accept you as you are. This can help build an accepting relationship with your parents.
  • For example, say, “I know I’m a bit different from my siblings, but I want to talk to you. It’s hard for me to feel like I fit in.”
  • If you’ve come out and your parents aren’t accepting say, “I know you don’t accept that I’m transgender, but I want you to accept me as your child and as part of this family.”
  • You can get helpful information from GLAAD.


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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Ensure your personal safety. If at any point you feel threatened or in danger by your parents or family, get help. Immediately go somewhere that you feel safe, like a friend’s house or an LGBT center.
  • If you think they may cause you harm, take action. Send a text or make a phone call to someone you trust. If necessary, call the police.


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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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How to Deal With Transphobic Parents Co-authored by Paul Chernyak, LPC

Updated: May 26, 2019


Explore this Article Speaking with your Parents Navigating Coming Out Reaching Out for Support Show 1 more... Questions & Answers Related Articles References

It's tough when your parents or other family members don't accept you or other people for being transgender. Whether you’ve come out to them or you feel passionately about standing up for the rights of all people, dealing with your parent’s transphobia can be difficult. As difficult as it seems, try and be understanding of their emotions and reactions and give your parents space to experience them. Reach out for support outside of your home by making supportive friends, meeting allies, and joining a support group. Be patient and stay hopeful.


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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Tell them your convictions. If your parents don’t know your views, share them. Whether you’re trans or not, you can stand up for your views and for trans people in general. Tell your parents why you are an ally to trans people and why it’s important to you to stick up for them. Being transparent with them will help them understand you better and learn your views. It will also help you because it will allow you to express yourself without hiding your true feelings.
  • For example, say, “I think it’s important to stand up for trans people. Many trans people already feel marginalized, so it’s important to me to be there and support them.”
  • You can also say, “I don’t know what it feels like to feel unsafe, but they do. I want to help trans people feel safe.”

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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Draw some boundaries for comments and behavior. If you know you disagree with your parents, set some boundaries for how you interact. Even if you strongly oppose one another, both you and your parents deserve to be treated with respect. Don't let anyone use name-calling, derogatory remarks, or curse words.[1] Ask your parents not to say things about trans people around you or in public.
  • If you can’t talk about trans issues without getting upset or blowing up at each other, you might want to drop it. You can’t change their minds, and you may have to agree to disagree.
  • Your goal should be to allow both you and your parents to make yourselves heard, not to change each other's opinions.


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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Ask for what you want and need. Even if your parents aren’t understanding of you being transgender, still ask them for what you want and need. If you have requests for your parents, make them reasonable and not outrageous. For example, they should still treat you with respect and not cut you down or make you feel bad.[3]
  • For example, say, “I know you disagree with me on some big things, but I still need to feel like your kid. Please don’t leave me out of family get-togethers or stop giving me hugs.”
  • It’s inappropriate to demand your parents to pay for reassignment surgery. However, you may ask them to see if insurance will cover other procedures.


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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Have patience. You cannot force your parents to accept you for being transgender on any timeframe. It may take months or even years for your parents to accept you. It can take time for your parents to understand that they cannot change your gender identity. They need time to adjust just as much as you do.[4]
  • You’ve had some time to sit with it and realize that you’re transgender, but they have not. They might feel shocked, hurt, disappointed, or confused. Give them some time to process and accept what you tell them.[5]
  • The hurt caused by not feeling accepted by your parents may be confused by the fact that you love them and want them in your life. At some point, your parents may soften and realize they want a good relationship with you, too.


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Kati Knitt

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Surely this is spam?
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Not at all. Some people have no idea what you are talking about.
It is informational.
Please reply some more so I can educate people.
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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Kati Knitt, well spam filter is not on it, so I guess it's not. 

Then again, whenever I encounter something in the spam filter here it has 50% chances of not being a spam so... Everything's relative. 
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Jeorj Euler

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The argument could be made that it is plagiarism, on account of the poor manner of citation if any citation at all.
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Captain Pipsqueak

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I was hoping I'd finally found somewhere that I wouldn't have to deal with you... people, but it appears nowhere is safe now.
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Captain Pipsqueak

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Don't call me Squeaky, you argument for proper condom usage.
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Jeorj Euler

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Every person's pursuit of a "safe space" in the context of "freedom from" a given non-violent thing begins and ends on that person's property, and if there is a domestic civil servant or domestic combatant whose jurisdiction and work becomes relevant to that property at the same time as that servant personally belonging to some kind of disliked human category, then too bad, apart from the fact that there is the framework of "democracy" (republic) within which to work.
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Kati Knitt

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Oh no, conservatives could be suffering consequences for their actions, what a tragedy
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Kati Knitt

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They removed all protections for trans people in America but conservatives are really in danger
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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What...... you don't get it. I embrace what I am. There are dangers. I don't worry about it,. I don't hide from it. More people want to harm a conservative than you. Yet I don't cower and hide and ask for others to protect me. You are asking in essence for the equivalence of an unlisted phone number for a name.

Your not stopping the repeated diatribe that ignores what I have said leads me to believe that you have a deficiency in reasoning.

You are worse than an obstructionist politician. You have allowed yourself to let others do your thinking for you.

I will pray for your redemption.

Please go to a platform for continued diatribe.

You have no support here for your PC overreach.

You need a flashy thingy badly.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Now that all of this time has been wasted Kati, lets get down to facts.
IMDb did not Deadname.
Contributors made the contribution. Not IMDb.
The submitter of the credit did the deed.
IMDb accepted the contribution, for which there was no objection. The submissions and the on screen credits match.
Accurate facts.
Got any further problems?
Seek out the contributor.
Seek out the production Company that listed the credit.
IMDb is only reproducing what it sees.
Now that you have the "Facts" there is nothing to discuss.
Seek out those that this should be addressed to.
This forum is not the place for a political grandstanding.
Staying "UNTIL" you get action is a rather presumptuous act on your part.
You will not get anywhere.
You have the intelligence to see that your efforts are going to be fruitless.
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Emma Arpin

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Hi Ed, that's a big leap to assume that the trans community, and supporters of the trans community, will be fruitless in pushing back against IMDb. Since it's pride month, I want to point out that in the 50 years since Stonewall, many corporations now want to us the LGBTQ+ community for their marketing. I have my own thoughts on this topic, but all the same, Amazon (who owns IMDb) is one of those companies. This isn't a great look for them, and it's only going to look worse with time, until the policy is changed.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Emma, that's a big leap to assume that many corporations now want to us the LGBTQ+ community for their marketing.

Absolutely FALSE FALSE FALSE.
That statement is ridiculous.
The actuality is..............very few corporations want you for their marketing.

An overwhelming majority would never use it for marketing.

If you wan't to be taken seriously. Act serious.

According to the U.S. Census Bureau there are over 5.9 million businesses.
How many constitutes many in your mind?
Your many is many too short to be many.

Many felicitations.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of those that exaggerate the facts.
(Edited)
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Kati Knitt

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Hey Emma, thanks for taking this seriously!
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Emma Arpin

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I am not sure why you are making this personal with me. For the most part, my interest here is to ask IMDb staff to directly address the issue in a public forum. In any case, yes, Amazon has latched on to LGBT+ issues with their marketing and internal policies for employees as well.

https://techcrunch.com/2018/11/01/apple-amazon-google-and-others-sign-letter-opposing-trumps-attempt...



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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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They are 100% aware that .6% is not a problem
They are 100% aware that the problem is psychosomatic.
When are you going to realize that if you chose to do "Anything" that there is going to be cause and effect in play. You can't ask anyone to protect you from a situation you chose and selected.
You can type all you want here and there. But you are changing ZERO.
Repeat..............you are changing zero.

Further replies should be considered inflammatory and categorized as spam.
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Kelly L.

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While we're at it let's take a look at how the courts in the U.S. view "disparate impact" discrimination cases (where a facially neutral policy disproportionately impacts a marginalized group - which if challenged IMDb's policy on birth/other former names in how they impact transgender people in the entertainment industry would qualify). (IANAL, but from my understanding this is how it works.)

The challenge at the lowest level of "scrutiny" would be: Was the policy created with discriminatory intent or not? Or, with the issue of deadnames specifically: Do they deadname transpeople but don't mention old/real names when talking about non-transgender people who've changed their name or who go by a different name than their legal name? IMDb would certainly win on that point.

The next question would be: Is there an important reason for the policy? This is where IMDb's two areas of deadnaming concerns (in the biography section and in the credits) would likely diverge.

With the former, the trans community has a reasonable shot at winning, since publishing birth names* as part of one's biography (when one has no relevant history under it) is not important in IMDb's mission. *Publishing "real names" when one uses a different one professionally (e.g. stage names) would be more defensible from IMDb's perspective than publishing one's birth name when it has been changed for personal reasons not related to their career (including but not limited to trans people) - this is why if IMDb does not want to give "special treatment" to trans people my suggestion would be to institute a "professional vs. personal" distinction in how birth names are treated in biographies.

With the latter, IMDb is more likely to prevail, since mentioning all (qualifying) credits that one has is an important function for IMDb's mission, and mentioning the name(s) that said credits are under is important for properly identifying them (otherwise, as I've said, when someone sees the name in the credits in the work and on IMDb there would be practical confusion).

The final question that would be asked in a legal challenge would be: Are there any alternatives that could achieve the goal that would have less of an impact on the group? The trans community prevailing even here would be iffy, since like I've said you can't go back and retroactively change your name in works that have already been released. In the more marginal cases, like trans people who are credited with their birth name only in some obscure school project that the general public likely wouldn't have copies of, there might be a defense in redacting the name there - but that is not likely to apply when one has used the name professionally in movies/shows/etc. that have been made public at large. I know that's unfair to transgender people who've transitioned at later points in their life, but this issue is about pragmatic identification and not mentioning old wrong-gender names for the purpose of erasing one's gender identity.

Finally, here's an analogy I thought of when comparing the two deadnaming situations: There has been a push by many for schools to get rid of early start times in the morning. Sometimes schools start early because of the preferences of teachers, coaches, etc. while other times it's for reasons like there aren't enough buses and bus drivers to have everyone in the district start at the same time. The former is analogous to publishing birth names out of standard practice without being a true necessity (a "cultural change" that would be easy to implement in practice), while with the latter you have practical obstacles that you can't just change by decree alone (at least not without likely shifting the issues elsewhere).
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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I play video games,” they said tonelessly. Then a retreat: “My name is Hannah.”

Tate wrote these things out and gave Salem the card. Hunched over, shoulders curled inward, Salem clutched the card and the flowers.

Just in the last few years, nonbinary identity has been slowly seeping into societal consciousness. A nonbinary actor, Asia Kate Dillon, has starred since 2017 as a nonbinary character on the Showtime series “Billions.” A raft of new nonbinary models are featured in fashion spreads, and a Coke ad, aired during the 2018 Super Bowl, paired an androgynous face with a pointed gender-neutral pronoun. “There’s a Coke,” the voice-over said, “for he and she and her and me and them.” Nonbinary as a category has even slipped into state laws. In 2016, an Oregon court granted a plaintiff the right to label themself nonbinary on their driver’s license, and by now, though the Trump administration proclaims that gender is a simple matter of biology, some dozen states, from New York to Utah, offer some form of Oregon’s flexibility. Yet the nation’s glimmers of tolerance don’t necessarily mean much — even in New York, let alone in rural North Carolina — when you’re living in opposition to our most basic way of seeing and sorting and comprehending one another.

It’s impossible to say how many Salems, how many nonbinary people, there are across the United States. Surveys have yet to deal with this reliably. And any researcher who takes on the question will run into a problem with terminology. An abundance of labels, with subtle distinctions, are in play. Neutrois and gender nonconforming and demiboy and demigirl and pangender and genderqueer are among the array of closely related identities that could confound any demographer. Another complication is that many nonbinary people also call themselves transgender or trans — not, as Salem has, to avoid explaining themselves, but as an umbrella term, encompassing all kinds of self-definition, all sorts of physical transformation and transgression of the norms of F and M.

“Data are scarce, and the research gaps are vast,” Jody Herman, a public-policy scholar at the U.C.L.A. School of Law’s Williams Institute, a think tank devoted to issues of gender and sexual orientation, told me, cautioning against any estimate of the country’s nonbinary population. That said, she pointed to an analysis of two federal public-health surveys, conducted by phone in 2014 and 2015, on which 19 states included a brief optional section about gender identity. The results suggest — tenuously — that the total of all transgender-identified adults in the United States is in the neighborhood of 1.4 million. The optional section had a lone follow-up question seeking more specificity: “Do you consider yourself to be male-to-female, female-to-male or gender nonconforming?” Around one-fifth of those who identified as trans chose nonconforming. Yet at the very outset of the section, any interview subject asking for clarification about the meaning of transgender was given a traditional binary definition along with an example of someone born male but living as female. So anyone who rejected both male and female classifications was potentially excluded. All told, the results didn’t provide much insight into nonbinary numbers; instead, the surveys were a reminder of the confusion and ignorance surrounding the topic.

For anyone interested in nonbinary demographics, the surveys had another shortcoming. They excluded anyone under age 18, and according to clinicians who specialize in gender, it’s among the young that nonbinary identity is taking hold most rapidly. “It’s growing exponentially,” Linda Hawkins, co-director of the Gender and Sexuality Development Clinic at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, told me about the number of kids and youth in her practice — from ages 6 to 21 — who identify as nonbinary. Hawkins, who was a clinical professor of Tate’s, has been working in the field for two decades. She talked about the importance, for young children, of recent picture books about fluidity, and of education programs for pediatricians, who are taught to respond with calm understanding when parents report that their children say they are “in the middle.” At least, she added with a rueful laugh, pediatricians are taught this in places like Philadelphia. For older kids, the internet has delivered “a surge of nonbinary information, of nuances in gender expression, in the last five years,” she said. “It has connected kids to supportive communities. Looking back, there were always nonbinary kids, but it’s only in the last few years that there has been the language — language to not feel alone, to have a flag.”

[Read about nonbinary teens petitioning lawmakers for drivers’ licenses that reflects their gender identities.]


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Emma Arpin

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I see that you are troubled by the existence of trans people. How do your feelings about trans people relate to IMDb policies? This forum exists to address issues with IMDb.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Laura A. Jacobs, a therapist in New York who focuses on L.G.B.T. clients, has seen some of the same nonbinary momentum. Jacobs is 49 and nonbinary (they prefer “genderqueer”), but Jacobs is a rarity; the identity, they said, is the province mainly of people under 30. Its underground beginnings, they explained, can be traced well back in time, but one iteration emerged in the 1990s, with theorists like Judith Butler, who wrote about gender as a culturally scripted performance, based in social norms rather than biology, imposed much more than innate; and with activists like Kate Bornstein, who fully surgically transitioned from male to female in the mid-1980s, only to write in her 1994 manifesto, “Gender Outlaw”: “I know I’m not a man ... and I’ve come to the conclusion that I’m probably not a woman. ... The trouble is, we’re living in a world that insists we be one or the other. ... All my life, my nontraditional gender identity had been my biggest secret, my deepest shame.”

With their long hair in a ponytail, and wearing thick leather boots and a button-down shirt and tie, Jacobs said that over the last several years, some psychiatric and medical providers have started to let go of binary assumptions and the idea that hormones and surgery should be offered only to those who suffer an agonizing need to remake the body as completely as possible from female to male or male to female. It may not be easy, but nowadays people who wish to exist somewhere other than these two endpoints, and who feel they can’t get far enough by nonmedical means — clothing choices; a name change; chest binding; penis tucking and taping — can find endocrinologists and surgeons to treat them. Still, the goal of treatment is often unclear to the patient themself; the prevailing binary paradigm doesn’t apply. The need is to get beyond, but how?

“Think of getting out of the shower and standing in front of a mirror,” Jacobs said. “For most people, cis people, it’s easy to see those body parts as belonging to us, even if we might rather they be smaller or bigger or more muscular or whatnot. Now imagine that the mirror is a little blurry, streaky with steam. And let’s say you’re a binary trans person who hasn’t yet transitioned. Around the edges of the blurriness, between the streaks, you can at least imagine the reflection you want; you know what it is. But the nonbinary person may not have an image; even with the help of the foggy mirror, they may not be able to find themself.”

Jacobs heard themself straining to communicate the dilemma they hoped to describe. Trying to evoke nonbinary experience for binary people, in a world where nearly everyone is raised with an either-or concept of gender, can feel liberating, but also futile: wearying, dispiriting, sometimes devastating. Whether in culturally conservative or liberal America, the subjective divide can feel too wide to bridge. This was something I heard again and again during countless conversations spanning eight states. And being nonbinary can feel inexplicable to yourself; the longings for physical alteration can feel both indefinite and indefensible. The harshest doubt can come from within.

“I am reconstructing sea level during Marine Isotope Stage 5a,” Kai Morsink, a Columbia University senior, told a roomful of earth-and-environmental-sciences students as the class gave presentations last November. Kai is 21, was assigned female at birth, uses masculine pronouns and is nonbinary. In a dress shirt, a black-and-white vest and black chinos, with his dark hair clipped short and parted boyishly on the side, he stood at the lectern, speaking at high speed and clicking through graphs and images of fossilized coral. He sounded nothing less than thrilled as he described his study site on Barbados, detailed its tectonic history, discussed the density of information his reef contained, elaborated on its relevance to climate change and announced, as his 10 minutes came to a close, “My future holds a lot of data collection!”

A classmate, responding to Kai’s exuberance, raised a hand and asked how he’d found such a perfect project. And indeed, to spend time with Kai is to be entranced by his expressiveness on topics ranging from paleoceanography to gender theory, from classical singing to his own sense of inescapable difference. “It’s like standing right beside a hanging punching bag,” he said, as we talked one afternoon at a cafe near the Columbia campus. “You push it away, and it swings back to hit you. You push it away farther, and it hits you harder. You push it again — farther — and it clobbers you.”



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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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Jeorj Euler, btw, confusing biological sex and gender is a common mistake. One does not equal the other. One also should not, at this point in society. 

That, and, well, many people are "unfortunate" in some way. As a person who does have a rare genetical condition I am, if not offended, very much irritated by calling that "unfortunate", because I live my life every day through it and I develop. As a person I won't be told by people who I am because of my health issues, slight in comparison. Nor would I be patient when people assume I'm healthy jsut because how I look and therefore I am "faking" it. It's a coin of two sides but the coin is of an ancient currency altogether - both sides are a relic that belongs in a museum. I was just told recently that I'm "no man" because I was not able to help the driver jumpstart a freaking trolleybus by pushing it. Well, okay then, if being "a man" means furthering an agonizing pain of stomach muscles (that mostly  kept me from sleeping the very night before the morning the incident happened) willingly while there were people who were more qualified to do push the trolleybus in particular situation then I won't be a man by that very specific definition. Nor should I care, really, but I do because some wild animal part of my brain thinks that my status was hurt. Well, surprise, we've gradually built a society where that is working less and less for next generations.    

I can thoroughly relate to TS people on that matter, even though I don't know any possible solution regarding the situation for IMDb as of yet.  
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Jeorj Euler

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I just figured if there is a condition that is both abnormal and implies no clear net advantage to the individual in being an asset to humanity (despite humanity's apex status in the biosphere), then the condition is likely "unfortunate". No matter how much we may like or dislike it, a person's belongingness with society is heavily contingent upon having qualities that fall within the realm of the histories of "common" expectations.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Jeorj let them talk nonsense among themselves.
This post is fruitless and will remain so until the 22nd century or therabouts
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Jake Freedman

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I can't get rid of these notifications but I am so sick of trannies and their mental health issues
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Kati Knitt

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It's not offensive to you because you're not trans
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Jeorj Euler

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Nobody claimed it was "not offensive".
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Kati, making assumptions of what someone is or is not is name calling in a nutshell.
If you cannot control yourself.....................................
Jeorj, please don't reply.
Please
Please
Please.
If no one talks to her???????
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Jeorj Euler

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Ed, this thread is not going away. There will be a new post every once in a while, roughly no matter what.
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Not saying that. If no one addresses her directly, that's all.
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Emma Arpin

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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Thanks
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Kati Knitt

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@Emma: I really hope they’ll eventually won’t deadname anyone, whether they have old credits or not...
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Deadnaming is a figment of .6% of the worlds imagination and any other gullible person that believes in gobbledygook.
Truth and Law will prevail.
Not Dreamland.
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Emma Arpin

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Now, you're citing a defense based on the publication of "factual information," which has nothing to do with jurisdiction.

Yes, that was the first ruling over AB 1687. Yes, that is what is being appealed. In addition to Amazon's lawyers, SAG-AFTRA, GLAAD, and many other LGBTQ+ organizations have lawyers working on the case. We will see what gets decided. If there was nothing to be decided, then there would be no appeal. That is how legal rulings work. I doubt this will be true in this specific case, but sometimes, they work their way up to the Supreme Court.

None of that changes my original point. You're not a lawyer, and I am not overly moved by your legal arguments on a help forum.

My point has simply been: Is deadnaming trans people in the film/tv industry really speech that IMDb and Amazon want to get behind? We will see what gets decided by courts. That is a different conversation.
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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Rob Sieger, I'd say that your rhetorics are more on the harassing side then anything Emma or Kati ever said here. Then again, it's just my opinion and I'm not here to judge. For now people on both sides (you very much included) wrote so much on the issue that it becomes evident that it's actually far from being irrelevant. Because clearly, if so many people are indeed not loosing the grip on the thread then subject has a lot of social relevance. 

Meanwhile to all people here: can we please not use "moronic", "silly" and words which are far worse when we're talking about each other. Moreover, repeatedly asking for people to stop the thread by continuing it with actually doing so is not exactly efficient either. 

Ed Jones (XLIX), at this point saying that something is unlikely or won't happen might not be an option. Last few years were full of events which virtually no one thought were possible. At this point everything should be labeled as plausible, because present logic fails us in terms of predictions. We have several presidents of large countries literally no one thought would actually win the elections (and some that were not expected to still be there, as well), war conflicts in areas which were not suspected to house such at all, several weather anomalies which cannot be explained, some of the most unexpected celebrity deaths ever, movies which were projected to fail at box office only to actually have fair chances... Point is: we live in a different world, somehow. It changes. For better or for worse. IMDb changes from time to time, as well, so that's plausible too. 
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Emma your are unmoved by common sense. And you are ignoring existing law.
You are believing that .6% of a population should get special treatment that no one else can get.
That's why this is going  N O W H E R E.
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Emma Arpin

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It's actually difficult to get a clear number on how much of the population identifies as trans (or non-binary), and the number seems to be growing with Gen Z, though that's a different topic.

Anti-discrimination laws do exist. Title VII and Title IX fall under the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which the Obama administration considered to cover trans people. The Trump administration walked back on this, and Amazon actually signed a letter opposing the Trump administration on this, as I've mentioned several times on here.

The argument against AB 1687 was that it did not effectively limit workplace discrimination, while supposedly preventing the publication of "factual information." We will see where the appeal leads. IMDbPro operates as a resume site, pulling information from the consumer IMDb site. It also generates information for the consumer IMDb site. That more or less why a case has been made that IMDb is not simply publishing "factual information," but also selling a resume service. It's also a resume service that assists in discrimination in the film/tv industry.

As far as special treatment goes, anti-discrimination laws have been a thing for the last 50+ years. By the way, if you were to decide to transition, legally change your name, etc then you too would benefit from a lot of the work that some us are doing here. I would even accept you, despite whatever mild annoyance you may have caused me on a help forum :D
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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At age 64 the only thing I'm gonna change is the T.P. Roll in the bathroom.
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Emma Arpin

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Well, in 2019, the option exists for you all the same. You can change as much as you like, including your views on trans people that you've shared throughout this thread.
(Edited)
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Jeorj Euler

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The Obama administration had adopted a fallacious definition of "sex" as it pertains to classification of an organism belonging to a heterosexually-reproductive species. It is a similar thing that has happened with other words and terms as well, like "marriage" and "assault weapon". Of course, the legal sex of a person really does sort of boil down to what is indicated on an identification document issued to him or her by a State government within whose jurisdiction he or she has "permanent" residence (the State-level equivalent of citizenship) or had been born. The Obama administration probably would have argued that the "full faith and credit" clause of the United States constitution required the United States executive branch to adopt such a view of sort. So, it is all convoluted. This combined with how some states react supportive of foreign breach of United States borders (as in, otherwise the presences of illegal foreigners) and many other problems, there is a small chance that the States will not be able to remain united, for as longer as an old school American might hope. We can see the polarization right in front of our eyes.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Emma factual information is a birth name. The only reason this has gone this far in the Ca court system was that the liberal judges here refused to toss it on motion to dismiss on jurisdictional grounds. Why an injunction was not filed and the process halted may have to do with greedy lawyers running up the tab. This should not have gotten past oral and interrogatories.
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Marco

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Well, I guess I have always misunderstood birth certificates. I thought that, among some other things, they told you what the birth name of a certain person was. Well, live and learn. :)
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Jeorj Euler

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The certificate, if it is a re-issue certificate, is more concerned about preserving the correct date and correct location (which is also vulnerable to undergoing change of name), along with, to a lesser extent, the legal mother and legal father; I believe if I'm correct.
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Rob Sieger

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I am so sick and tired of getting email notifications about this godforsaken thread. If IMDB is not going to change its policies why not close down this thread and block those editors/posters who continue to raise the subject incessantly and relentlessly?
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Jeorj Euler

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In order to not receive notifications from a particular thread, click "Unfollow" to unsubscribe from it, on the right side of the screen. https://d2r1vs3d9006ap.cloudfront.net/s3_images/1794443/18541-15p4qw8.png?1561232438
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Duh!

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