John Charles Thomas listing usurped and renamed "Joseph Toner." Not a credible change.

There is a listing for the famous early American baritone John Charles Thomas (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0859060/?r...) that has been usurped by a woman who claims he is her grandfather and that he had a different name (several names, actually). She bases the validity of her claim on the fact that IMDb changed the Thomas account to reflect Toner. The name and photo are not alike, her story makes no sense, and she seems to be the only one in the world making this claim. Please revert the John Charles Thomas page back to reflect his name and his original photo. (Dr. Valerie Kaiser posted her claim at Mudcat.org, a music discussion site - http://mudcat.org/thread_all.cfm?thre... and several of us have been looking into her story. It frankly appears to be nuts. Though most people don't know him now, Thomas was a household name for decades after WWI. There are many videos of him, that Dr. Kaiser is staking a claim on on YouTube. A google search shows that she has been very busy posting this misinformation, but she is the ONLY person posting this information. http://bit.ly/XBvzlA Again, please restore John Charles Thomas to his full name and expunge the bogus Joseph Toner information. Thank you.

Maggie Dwyer

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annoyed

Posted 7 years ago

7 years ago

Emperor, Champion

6418 Posts
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Thanks for flagging this up and doing the legwork needed to nail this down.

As you say here:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0859060/bo...

The Wikipedia article is decently sourced to things like The New Grove Dictionary of Opera and most obviously a book on him: John Charles Thomas, Beloved Baritone of American Opera and Popular Music.

Even if he were also known as Toner, it is clear John Charles Thomas is clearly the name he is known by, so this shouldn't have been renamed, before we get onto the fact that no where does anyone suggest this is his name.

The only real surprise is that they've not tried a similar game with Wikipedia, but perhaps the name change on IMDB is the first stage in this attempt, although they'll not very far, as it isn't considered a reliable source. I they do try it bump this thread and I'll sort it out over there too (it might need locking if they are persistent)..

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7 years ago

Maggie Dwyer

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Thank you! I work in a university research library. Digging up the facts on this comes naturally!

I also pulled up the New York Times obituary - here it is via the ProQuest citation:

JohnCharles thomas dies at 69; concert, opera and radio star. (1960, Dec 14). New York Times (1923-Current File). Retrieved from http://search.proquest.com/docview/11...

I posted the Wikipedia link partly to show that it is unchanged and to watch and see if she now tries to change it. It is easy enough to deal with her behind the scenes there. Now, to correct the mess she made over on YouTube. . .

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7 years ago

Maggie Dwyer

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I came back to see if there was any movement on the topic - I realize you folks are busy. I hope a few keystrokes to revert to the earlier version is all it takes. Thanks!

7 years ago

Emperor, Champion

6418 Posts
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Hopefully, staff will spot this.

7 years ago

Giancarlo Cairella, Official Rep

1108 Posts
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Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Could you please look at the page now (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0859060/) and let us know if there's still incorrect data on it (and if so, exactly what needs to be changed)?

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7 years ago

Maggie Dwyer

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It is still wrong in several spots - First, the main image is not Thomas, but the father of the woman who dreamed this all up.

Here is a link to an LA Times story with the John Charles Thomas birth and death and a younger photo than those two on IMDb. http://projects.latimes.com/hollywood...

Here also is his photo on a CD re-release of many of his shorter songs: http://www.classicalarchives.com/albu...

So, in answer to your question, the main photo needs to be deleted. The Birth and Death dates and the locations of his birth and death need to be corrected.

The correct John Charles Thomas information is birth, September 6, 1891, Meyersdale, Pennsylvania – death, of intestinal cancer, on December 13, 1960, Apple Valley, California. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cha...)

Another site is helpful here (http://godgiftf8n.blogspot.com/2009/0...) This site has some great citations you might want to include. This page lists his birth year as 1889, but I think this is wrong. The liner notes on the CD I linked above says 1891.

His wife was Dorothy May Koehler. I linked to a photo of Thomas from the L.A. Times. This is only for comparison, I don't own the photo.

Thank you!

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2013-05-17T19:42:18+00:00

Emperor, Champion

6418 Posts
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Thanks for keeping on the case here. I did bump the thread over on the forum just to get your attention (no need to reply there).

2013-05-18T05:13:46+00:00

Maggie Dwyer

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I just followed a link that was posted elsewhere and landed on the same photo that I just posted in my response this afternoon. http://www.latimes.com/includes/proje... The photo of Thomas is under the name Joseph Toner (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0859060/ph...), with a link to the LA Times article. These two guys don't even look alike - it's such an odd story. The article needs to be linked to John Charles Thomas and the Toner page needs to be completely removed. Toner never was in a filmed performance, as far as I can find, he was a walk-on player in 11 Broadway musicals or plays.

7 years ago

Valerie Kaiser

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This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled
Ignoring Law regarding the real name of a performer, which IMBD knows, as it is bad for AMAZON.

Amazon and the IMBD know full well the history of Joseph Toner and who he is. He changed Broadway and music more than any one person ever. He was too important and Catholic at the wrong time. He knew Ford was a Nazi sympathizer. FDR died and the game was up. His movies were destroyed. His creations ruined. The true wealth of his works left in small amounts and what he did with Gershwin or Berlin or anything not imortant to Rodgers/Hammerstein, well, it was never brought back. But it is in the Archives and it will be brought back and you will rue the day you denied who this man is. Ford only took his early works as much as that is. Not ONE opera is left. You know who he is and some woman comes along and complains so you will not use his real name? his STAGE NAME?
Then you are worthless. And liars and you deserve the suit that GE is going to get, or you can start to act like a real professional organization, rather than this coverup all these years later. There is no face for the disgust I have for you.

7 years ago

Maggie Dwyer

13 Posts
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I just read this most recent post from Valerie Kaiser - I rest my case. This woman is unstable and is her own worst enemy. Please restore the John Charles Thomas account to reflect just John Charles Thomas. If you wish to create a Joseph Toner account for Ms. Kaiser to pour her nonsense into that might save the rest of the bright lights of Broadway her not-so-tender-loving attention.

The "real name" of John Charles Thomas was ALWAYS John Charles Thomas. I suspect the real name of Joseph Toner was always Joseph Toner. His daughter/granddaughter has dreamed up a fabulous story that doesn't have a shred of credibility. Please stop humoring her and just fix the account. Thank you.

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7 years ago

Gene Bivins

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If anyone with discernment listens to many of the recordings on YouTube which are styled as "Joseph Toner" it will become evident one is listening to different voices. The claims of Dr. Kaiser dispute themselves. She claims Toner also recorded under the names Earl Wrightson and Richard Torigi. I'm not old enough ever to have seen John Charles Thomas, but I am old enough to have seen both Torigi and Wrightson, who were not the same man. Wrightson (like Thomas) was a baritone. Torigi was a tenor. Has Dr. Kaiser ever produced one single shred of evidence--verifiable by anyone other than herself--to back up her claims of a vast conspiracy to blot out the memory of Joseph Toner?

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7 years ago

LuvsToResearch, Champion

716 Posts
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I have just now seen these postings and have located John Charles Thomas' passport application dated in 1922 with birth information affidavit by his parents showing his birth date as Sept. 6, 1890 (disparities with birth years isn't unusual with births prior to requirement for birth certificates). The application also has a photo of the 32 year old Thomas which clearly shows the same (though younger) face of the man whose photo Maggie Dwyer has posted here. I have also located California death record for him. I will see if I can get this information uploaded and updated on site. The photos of Toner need to come off Thomas's page. This whole incident is very odd.

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7 years ago

Maggie Dwyer

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Kaiser throws big Broadway and film musical names into the conversation with a randomness that is a clue to the problem here. The accusations she makes on book and product reviews at Amazon are frankly astonishing. I am guessing that most people who read her accusations recognize the ravings of a disturbed person and have simply responded that she is wrong and walked away from it.

The remarkable thing is that someone at IMDb accepted her word for it and changed the John Charles Thomas information when NONE of the details matched, there was simply no case of Thomas being a pseudonym or front name for Toner. And that at least 2 years have passed and they still haven't fixed it.

IMDb is kind of like Wikipedia, it's a starting point for scholarship, and when this information is this wrong, anyone researching John Charles Thomas is sent down a rabbit hole contrived by Kaiser. It needs to be fixed now. Thanks for digging out those documents - clearly Kaiser didn't have anything so convincing to make the first changes, they should clinch making a correction and expunging Toner from the record.

2013-12-04T22:25:32+00:00

LuvsToResearch, Champion

716 Posts
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Reason to Celebrate!! A great big thanks to IMDb Staff for taking all the appropriate steps! http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0859060/re...

2013-12-05T01:04:50+00:00

Maggie Dwyer

13 Posts
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Wonderful! Now to get it rebuilt to include the correct photo. And I'm sure there must be other images out there of JCT that can be added to the site. Thanks, everyone, for pitching in on this small but significant project! I'll look into the possibility of photos (I work in a university research library - I'll check to see what I can find in our Special Collections and what is out there online.) I wrote to a librarian at the Peabody to ask about the Thomas papers and materials donated to their library, but haven't heard back yet.

7 years ago

LuvsToResearch, Champion

716 Posts
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I've submitted update requests and provided links to this thread and Maggie's work to help substantiate the request. Keep your fingers crossed.

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2013-11-25T20:55:22+00:00

LuvsToResearch, Champion

716 Posts
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Thank to staff for making these changes so quickly. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0859060/externalsites I know that photos are a more problematic issue, as is the resume of Toner who is attached to Thomas. I've posted a message on the CH Board under the Photos Thread and made a request re photos on my original submission to make the changes for Thomas' birth and death info. I am, today, going to write to the Help Desk. It is all that I know is left to me. Any advice from you "photo experienced" people would be most welcomed.

7 years ago

Maggie Dwyer

13 Posts
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I sent in links and information a few months ago - hopefully if we keep it up they'll remedy this intentional misrepresentation of a great singer. Thanks for the update!

2013-11-19T00:41:16+00:00

LuvsToResearch, Champion

716 Posts
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The birth date/place and death date/place have been changed. I am now waiting for changes to resume/photos though those might be tougher. Hoping to contact staff via this site or via the help desk or CHB. It may be more difficult but Ms. Kaiser has paid to usurp a page that has nothing to do with her or her family members, as far as I can see. I wish we could find a way to get the REAL John Charles Thomas' photo set up on his page.

2013-11-19T02:09:36+00:00

Maggie Dwyer

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If you look at the CV here http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0859060/otherworks?ref_=nm_pdt_wrk_sm you'll see that it is a tangle of performances that Kaiser has interpolated into Thomas' oeuvre. The "aka" remarks need to be taken out of some of them, and others need to be removed entirely.

Thanks for your effort - you've made more progress than I did in the last several months!

2013-11-19T02:47:36+00:00

LuvsToResearch, Champion

716 Posts
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Yes, the entire page needs to be cleaned up. I'll work on it......;>)

2013-11-19T16:30:12+00:00

Maggie Dwyer

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There was a remark in my email this morning that I don't find in the discussion now, commenting that Kaiser paid to do this at IMDb. I don't think she did. She posts in all of the free sites that she can find. I think she simply bludgeoned some poor web administrator with her adamant argument about Toner and they buckled and polluted the John Charles Thomas listing as a result. Some of these free sites have apparently kept her out (I won't name them or she might give them a try!)
On a positive note, this nonsense has inspired me to update some of my web accounts and to create profiles for myself. I have begun working to remove ambiguous and incorrect posts on a number of sites I regularly visit.

2013-11-22T22:41:51+00:00

LuvsToResearch, Champion

716 Posts
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Slowly but surely: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0859060/otherworks

2013-11-23T16:10:10+00:00

BartSmith

4 Posts
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The so called "official" sites should be removed as well:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0859060/externalsites?ref_=nm_ql_pdtls_4

It would be also nice to change the number to (I) as there's no John Charles Thomas (I) profile at the moment:

http://www.imdb.com/find?q=John+Charles+Thomas&s=all

(Edited)

2013-11-23T18:27:18+00:00

Maggie Dwyer

13 Posts
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Thank you all, for helping with the fact checking for this page! Redundancy in a site means these things can end up spreading if they aren't caught.

2013-11-23T21:25:49+00:00

LuvsToResearch, Champion

716 Posts
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I have submitted changes to the "Official Page" to delete the Joseph Toner pages and I've added Misc. Pages for John Charles Thomas. Those should be (hopefully) updated next week. I think I did them yesterday...I think.

2013-11-24T01:06:02+00:00

Maggie Dwyer

13 Posts
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Now if they'll just remove his photo on the main page and the four Ms Kaiser put up in the photo gallery:
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm878683136/nm0859060?ref_=nmmi_mi_all_pbl_1
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm794797056/nm0859060
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm1519036160/nm0859060 and
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3772296448/nm0859060

None of these belong, they are Kaiser's grandfather, not Thomas. Plus, as pointed out, the facebook page
https://www.facebook.com/JohnCharlesThomasBlueEagle
and the claims she makes on YouTube via her page
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfHwJE2AAbLm1rXOkCWMAsw?feature=mhee

THIS IS THE REAL FACEBOOK PAGE FOR JOHN CHARLES THOMAS: a page to "like" only https://www.facebook.com/pages/John-Charles-Thomas/109301325755143?ref=br_rs

and the correct Wikipedia page can be linked for more accurate information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Charles_Thomas

There are also authoritative articles available online about him, such as this discussion of his early work at the Peabody in Baltimore of March 8, 1998 by Fred Rasmussen:
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1998-03-08/features/1998067157_1_thomas-peabody-conservatory-musica...

and I don't know how durable this link is, but it is his obituary in the Reading, PA newspaper:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1955&dat=19601214&id=940jAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cZwFAAAAIBA...

7 years ago

LuvsToResearch, Champion

716 Posts
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I have done all that I know to do. I've submitted changes, contacted the GS Board, the CHB, the Help Desk and most of my changes have been implemented. However, try as I might I have been unable to get the profile photo and resume removed. It is wrong. Neither should be attached to John Charles Thomas as both are about Joseph Toner. It is too bad that Toner has no known credits in film that would allow him to have a page at IMDb. He does have a page on IBDB but that page doesn't allow for
submissions such as Ms. Kaiser has done to IMDb. John Charles Thomas has his own, well deserved history and it should not be usurped by Ms. Kaiser in order to advance Joseph Toner's accomplishments, whatever they may well be. However, try as I might, I cannot get the erroneous profile shot and resume removed.

I hope that further requests by other contributors can get his accomplished.

Lila

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John Charles Thomas listing usurped and renamed "Joseph Toner." Not a credible change.

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