Mae West genres

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I have submitted Genre additions in the past for Mae West films that have not been accepted, primarily to add either Music or Musical. So far as I'm concerned, if she sings in the film, it deserves at least a Music genre, because her singing is a reason for my wanting to watch the show. (I've read the definitions of these genres; I know that what I just said is not the definition.) 5 of her 12 films are already tagged as Musicals (none yet as Music), and I agree with those.

I've had very few rejections among my contributions. Those for Mae West were submitted in Oct/Nov 2017. Should I resubmit, or will listing them here suffice; if the answer is "resubmit", should the genre be Music or Musical? 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0024873/soundtrack

Belle of the Nineties (1934)

171008-080552-039000  Musical (would be satisfied with Music)

171014-162521-207000  Music  (tried a week later when Musical did not appear; would be satisfied with this genre)

the story is about a Lillian Russell-type gay-nineties songstress, and she performs 4 songs.


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0027851/soundtrack

Klondike Annie (1936)

171008-080759-723000  Musical 

171014-162249-560000  Music (tried a week later; would be satisfied with this genre)

171110-041954-219000 Music, Drama (about a month later)

she plays a gay-nineties entertainer, performs 6 songs.


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0028843/soundtrack

Every Day's a Holiday (1937)

171008-081024-804000  Musical

171014-162200-366000  Music (again, tried a week later; would be satisfied with this genre)

she plays a gay-nineties grifter who uses songs as part of her grift. Louis Armstrong also performs in 2 songs (not noted on the Soundtracks page); she performs 5 songs.


There are 3 more films I haven't watched recently, but they have 0, 1, and 2 songs performed by her on the Soundtracks pages, so the absence of Music/al is more reasonable...if the Soundtracks pages are correct.

Thanks in advance.

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bderoes, Champion

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Posted 1 year ago

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Marco

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I would strongly advise against first trying to add Musical and, if that fails, trying to add Music as a genre to a title. I don't think it helps your case. Also, genres shouldn't be added to satisfy you, they should be added because the content of a certain title falls within their (current) definition. For example: You said that in Belle of the Nineties (which I haven't seen, so I can't say anything about the genre it should have) someone performs 4 songs. But are they aimed at us, the viewers? Or are they "performed for the enjoyment of other characters that may be viewing"? If it's the latter, it seems IMDb is right not to list this as a Musical.
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bderoes, Champion

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Thanks Marco, I agree that having submitted both genres separately was not the best strategy. Perhaps I should have been more patient. When I've added "Drama" or "Comedy" to a musical, it usually went through right away. But I was also not clear which is truly the most appropriate of the 2 genres.

To me, songs in musicals are never aimed at the viewer unless the characters break the 4th wall, which is rare among the films I've watched. I think everyone would agree that Singin' in the Rain (1952) is a flat-out Musical, but they are definitely singing for the enjoyment of their fellow characters, or Don Lockwood sings to himself when he's splashing in the puddles. In The Wizard of Oz (1939), the characters are definitely singing to each other or to self.

Since mid-September, I've watched 400+ Music/als released before 1945 (in release order, so I've got a lot more to decades to go), 75 of which are tagged Music (6 of those are also tagged Musical), and reviewing those 75 titles doesn't help me relate to the definitions, but maybe they were adopted after those films were tagged. (If I weren't skipping the singing cowboy movies, I'd have seen a lot more that are Music instead of Musical.)

As I say in my micro-descriptions, in each case Mae West is singing as part of her character's profession onscreen, so perhaps Music is better than Musical based on the exclusion stated ("songs performed for the enjoyment of other characters that may be viewing"), but that applies to almost all music performed in almost all musicals I've seen. The majority of screen time is "portraying a narrative that alludes to another Genre." These are not operas or concerts. So that pushes me back to Musical. Plus her other 5 films are Musicals, and are very similar films.

Can a staffer answer how best to get the 3 films in my root post tagged as Musical? 
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Marco

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To me, songs in musicals are never aimed at the viewer unless the characters break the 4th wall, which is rare among the films I've watched.
I see your point. I personally always feel it's aimed at the viewer if it isn't specifically meant as a performance for any characters in the movie. In that case it isn't necessary to break the fourth wall to still aim a song at the viewer. But I totally see your point. Maybe the definition should be tweaked a bit?

75 of which are tagged Music (6 of those are also tagged Musical), and reviewing those 75 titles doesn't help me relate to the definitions, but maybe they were adopted after those films were tagged.
Mistakes happen, definitions can get tweaked, so it's always possible a title has a certain genre attached to it that it shouldn't have. (or lack a certain genre that it should have).
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bderoes, Champion

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Thanks Marco. You said 
I personally always feel it's aimed at the viewer if it isn't specifically meant as a performance for any characters in the movie. 
Almost all movies among the 400+ I've seen from 1927-44 present songs (sung and/or danced) as a performance for characters within the movie. Even when Busby Berkeley got surreal, abstract and cinematic in 1933 with 42nd Street and others, the premise of the scene was that it was a performance onstage for an audience within the film. Very few films have been book musicals or concept musicals up to this point. It's usually some variation of "puttin' on a show."

So when Mae West gets on stage 4, 5 or 6 times during a film, and delivers a song to an in-film audience, that's a very normal method for delivering Musical content in the 1930's. 

Trying to retrofit a definition that covers all the styles and premises over the decades is no small task. 

Right now I'm just trying to get 3 movies added to genre Musical that deserve to be found by people who want to see musicals from that era. Or learn from the data editors why not.
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bderoes, Champion

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Just noticed that this has been tagged as Answered.

It is Not so far as I'm concerned, and I'm the one posing the questions.
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Marco

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Trying to retrofit a definition that covers all the styles and premises over the decades is no small task.
Maybe the definition of Musical could use some tweaking?? I really don't know, because I don't know very much about the genre.
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Will, Official Rep

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Hi bderoes,

Based on the comments on this thread we've accepted the addition of Musical on these titles.

Regards,
Will