Live Poll: Face-Off: 'Joker' vs 'The Dark Knight'

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  • Updated 4 days ago
  • (Edited)
Intro:

Since many critics held sessions of indulgence on the new movie 'Joker' with Joaquin Pheonix and with an average pre-release-rating of 9.6/10 by 9023 raters on 09-06-2019, 00:28 pm, it seems obvious that 'Joker' could beat Nolan's 'The Dark Knight' in getting a better durable rating or at least a higher income at the box office. [b]What do you think about it?[/b] Tease us here.

Rules:

Intro and text at the options debateable, the poll idea should stay the same.

Link:

https://www.imdb.com/list/ls090962218

Poll: https://www.imdb.com/poll/vdD9J8aLMVs/
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Breumaster

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  • excited

Posted 1 month ago

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Breumaster

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I've put in some links into the intro. :D
Modified the options a little. ;D
(Edited)
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Breumaster

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I did cut the term "pre-release-rating" to "rating", since I realized that it is actually released.
(Edited)
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cinephile

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I have high expectation, I don't think there is any possible way for Joker to beat The Dark Knight in Box Office with an R rating. It is almost impossible for it to beat The Dark Knight in Rating. The Dark Knight is the 4th in the rating.
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Breumaster

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And no one would have expected that fact, when 'The Dark Knight' was still running. I even heard some people saying that it's only a movie from the basis of comic books. It will never beat xyz - and it did! I don't say 'Joker' sure does. I can't see the future. But I say that when there was a comic based reality movie that can handle that, it might be 'Joker'. It's more about prediction. Maybe I should mention that in the intro. Thank you. :D
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cinephile

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The Dark Knight is a Christopher Nolan movie you already make money and have a huge Nolanite fan base with this. The Fan Base of Todd Philips or of Joaquin Phoenix is not as big as the Nolanite maybe the Robert Deniro fans can help but most of them are in the 45+, the public for a comic book movie is mostly between 18 and 29 years old according to the stats. Plus, Robert Deniro doesn't have the biggest role in the movie. Finally, an R rated movie never made 1 billion in cash. For me, the odds for the Joker to beat the Dark Knight are very very very very LOW. Now, to beat the Dark Knight in Reviews will be even harder to beat since fans of comic have already made a contest between these two. my theory is that if Joker wants to beat The Dark Knight, it has to be better than people are expecting from it. Otherwise, people will rate it very low. For example, it is like a sequel thing. If you make A fellowship of the ring for example with 8.8 on IMDB people are expecting the next one to be as good so if it is at the same level people will find it bad, so for it to be rate as good it has to be better. This is why the Return of the King is one of the best sequels of all time because it was better that everybody expected which has happened 3 times at my knowledge the second is with The Godfather part II ( I know it is not rated higher but still 0.1 points lower is good), and the 3rd times is with Terminator: The Judgment Day.
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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cinephile, Joaquin Phoenix movies combined might have the same amount of people in a fanbase as Nolan movies because he is an actor and actors are usually (and unfortunately) more known than directors. 
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Breumaster

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That's ok. I'm a fan of Nolan, too. I love his works - mostly all of them. I'm also a fan of Joaquin Phoenix, because I think he is an extraordinary actor that fits perfect for the Joker. If he can beat Heath Ledger? I don't know, but I'm willing to see it and give it my own rating then. I must admit that I have great expectation and wanna see them fulfilled by Phoenix. He often plays bizarre characters. That could be his peak, even though his performance in 'Walk the Line' as Johnny Cash was excellent! And when it comes to 'The Avengers' (2010). There  was a director named Joss who? Joss Whedon. I know no one in my entourage who has known this name formerly. Know the people around me which are movie fans know his name. :D
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Breumaster

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What I wanted to say is ... people who become popular mostly all were unknown before.
"Leonardo who?" - "Oh this autism  guy from Gilbert grape!" - "Oh yeah he was great. Wasn't he?"
Anybody successful in showbiz had a time when he was not popular and a milestone that lifted her or him up.

Cameron - 'Duel', 'The Terminator'
Spielberg - 'Jaws'
Nolan - 'Memento'
Scott - 'Alien'
... tbc ...
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cinephile

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Joaquin Phoenix is excellent, I love him, I'm also a fan of Nolan ( I even wrote him a letter). Even, if Joaquin was better the Heath, Heath has a huge fan base too especially since the tragedy. Personally, I think that Nolan his fanbase is way bigger than Joaquin is  fanbase. Even if Nolan is a director and Joaquin an actor. Every movie by Christopher Nolan is a huge success. I won'T go to Tenet because there is Robert Pattinson, I will watch the day of his release because it is a Christopher Nolan movie. Same case with Spielberg, some people went to the theater for The Post in 2017 because it was Spielberg Movie.
  
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Breumaster

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I was really down when I read about Ledgers death. I just think that there is a big intersection between Nolan fans and curios people which want to know more about the Joker. Well they can read the comics. That's back to the roots. Or watch the movie. I'm second, but both. I love Nolan's trilogie, but want to know more about the Joker. I think it's a good step of Warner to pick the subject and take it serious for the fans. That wasn't always so. I appreciate that. That's what Marvel and shortly later later Marvel & Disney did for the last eleven years. Very successful in anyway. And it is what Nolan did. At least - without havin' it seen ... I hope so. ;)
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Breumaster

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But on the other hand there are movies the people go because of the stars. Best pick: Tom Cruise. Who were the directors of his films. I've seen many of them, but can't count the directors, even when well known to the correct movies.
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cinephile

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Totally agree.
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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I like The Dark Knight (2008), but to me it never held up as well as Batman Begins (2005), plus latter seemed to have more impact on pop culture in general, something that gets overlooked a lot. 

At this points I have almost no doubt that Joker (2019) will be a very memorable movie and going for isolated timeless setting rather than "contemporary" look that already looks a bit old might actually lend it a hand. We'll see. Meanwhile I'm just patiently excited for the movie. 
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Breumaster

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I'm really curious now. Curious like a cat. ;)
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Breumaster

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Thank you both for the lines.

Re-arranged the intro for better readability
Improved the options for better understanding

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Breumaster

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Hi guys! :D
Sorry for having no time. The house we live in is to be redeveloped. It's a lot of effort. We will have put in new electrical wires - the old ones are more than 60 years old and they're building a new floor at the top. We're getting an elevator at last, many things like that. It will last for some weeks. Maybe I'll have some time in between. But at the end of the works it's a bunch of effort again. Thank you for the patience. :D
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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Breumaster, wow, good luck with that! Any remodeling/redeveloping or just maintenance at times can be a ton of work and distracting from everything else a lot (or vice versa: everything starts to seem a distraction)! 
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Breumaster

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Thank you, Nikolay.
Can please tell me about that link?
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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Breumaster which link?..
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Breumaster

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Wow. 2 Days and we got an internet connection again. Back in civilisation! ;)
Nikolay, I meant the link you've put on my name. :D
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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Breumaster, this link! :) 

I just try my best at hyperlinking anything, so in case of user names these are mostly their pages. I believe the first time it happened it was a copy-paste oddity on some particularly diffucult name, but with time it became an unwritten rule for me. :) 
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Breumaster

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~3000 counts later, still 9,6/10-*bump*
87,8% Lovers, (10/10, 11289 votes), 4,9% haters (1/10, 625 votes) and barely nothing in between!
(Edited)
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cinephile

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It will probably be one of the best movies of all time. Finally, a movie to show that the budget doesn't make the best movie. Image result for joker dance meme
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cinephile

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Image result for joker dance meme
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cinephile

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Image result for joker dance meme
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cinephile

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Image result for joker dance meme
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cinephile

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this is a gif is Joker beat Deadpool at the box office. I post it now in case it dont: joker GIF
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Breumaster

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I still haven't seen it. It's not released in D and I'm not a critic. They are lucky to watch the movies before their release. But I know one thing and that is that Joaquin Poenix is a very versatile and strong actor. I think that specially the torn characters he played are some of his best. 'Walk the line', 'The Master',  '8mm', 'Her', 'The village', 'Return to Paradise', .... I saw a few more with him, but I think these are his best. I know ... 'Gladiator'. But I wouldn't count 'Gladiator' to his best. ;)
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Stephen Atwood

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You might want to clean up the texts to each option.

Edit Absolutely yes! Joker (2019) will overcome The Dark Knight (2008) in both categories while it's original run
to
Absolutely yes! Joker (2019) will overcome The Dark Knight (2008) in both categories during its original theatrical run.

Edit Joker (2019) might beat The Dark Knight (2008) in it's rating, but is so special that the income will be lower
to
Joker (2019) might beat The Dark Knight (2008) with its IMDb rating, but will lose in the box office battle between the two films.

Edit Joker (2019) might rise higher in it's income, but the special high rating will not last for long and at last will be lower than the one of The Dark Knight (2008)
to
Joker (2019) might earn a higher box office, but  its initial high rating will be short-lived and after time will be lower than The Dark Knight (2008).

Edit Sure Not! The Dark Knight (2008) will stay upon Joker (2019) in any way
to
Surely not! The Dark Knight (2008) will stay above Joker (2019) in box office and IMDb rating.
(Edited)
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Breumaster

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Thank you Stephen. :D
That reads better in deed. Corrected it.
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rubyfruit76, Champion

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Wow, this will be wildly popular. :)
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Breumaster

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I hope so. :D
My experience tells me that this one has a chance, so I made this list.
I know there are many people who are not so into superhero movies.
(In this case supervillain movies).
This can be a burner because of Joaquin Phoenix, which is an acclaimed
method actor and predestinated for such characters. And surely because
the critics started a hype beyond good and bad. The trailers are well made.
And the legacy of Nolan lasts on this Franchise. It was a pity when Heath
Ledger died, but I think people are very interested in the prequel of the
Joker I guess most of them sure know, that it can't be rubbish, because
Warner at last sat enhanced effort in its superhero movies.

Even though it's not of Nolan,
they have the chance now  gaining the audience with 'Joker'. I guess it will be
a fantastic story and so I'm totally excited and curious like a cat. ;D
Greetz. :D
(Edited)
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joe siegel

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Well, I'm in a dilemma when I'm really not interested in this kind of movies, but the Joker is such an emblematic character that a movie about him is interesting enough to break my cinephile moral code.
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Joker in Metascore got a 70 while TDK a 84, obviously these criticisms are very precipitous and I'm interested in watching this movie but I have no illusions that I can beat TDK, I'm probably underestimating Todd Philips' skills as a director because I've never I have seen him in a project as serious and as big as this but what I do not underestimate is Joaquin, he is a great actor who can at the height to the unforgettable HL
(Edited)
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rubyfruit76, Champion

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Breu, could you update the intro? (Joker now has over 15,000 votes, etc.)

Also, may I suggest a few edits? (in bold below)

Since many critics held positive reviews on the new movieJoker (2019), (directed by Todd Phillips), it seems possible that it could beat Christopher Nolan's The Dark Knight (2008)in getting a better durable rating or at least a higher income at the box office. The new movie has reached an average rating of 9.6/10 by rd. 9000 voters as of 09-06-2019 on IMDb. Which of these predictions would you most likely choose?

(Also, I'm not sure what "rd." -- right before 9,000 voters -- means: I'd spell it out)

Thanks. :)
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Jessica, Champion

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Bump.
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Breumaster

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Hello, guys. Sorry for waiting so long. We got the last phase of renovation. We're back at the old home and had a struggle with the internet connection, because we had to reconfigure out router. But at least we're back in the world. :D
ruby:
I corrected it. would you please check if it fits better now? Thank you.
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Breumaster

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Seems like I have a lucky hand in last time.
Thank you, Dan. Very nice!
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cinephile

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YEAH, I will vote Joker, It is sad for them all these news like this:  https://nationalpost.com/news/world/u-s-army-warns-of-possible-incel-shootings-at-joker-film-screenings. The movie is not even out and people criticize it for being hyper-violent,  it makes me angry!!!!!
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cinephile

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First time that I vote against a Christopher Nolan film. It is not a definitive vote, I may change it in the future.
(Edited)
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Breumaster

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I'm not really surprised by this result. But I guess a chance, that some people might be suprised later. I'm still curious like a cat. ;D
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Breumaster

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It was a good decision to pick up this poll idea. It has the fastest groth of voters any poll of me ever had and can stay for the future, because there is at least one option that may change later. I think there will be 300.000 to 500.000 'Joker'-voters in the next 2 month and maybe some of them will come here and vote. I believe that it will rise to more than 1000 votes easily the next two month. Since the refusers (1/10) shrunk from 5% of ~20k to 1.5% of  ~130k, the 9/10 voters grew very strong and between 6/10 and 1/10 there are barely no voters, it might be. That's always to see in comparation. Now the movie sank to 9.0/10. I guess we'll see Phoenix at the Academy Awards. It's such a pity I have to wait a week to see it. I'm aiming for the best seats in cinema. I hope we can manage this. ;D Thank you again for picking that poll. :D

(Edited)
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cinephile

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I had very high expectations for the movie, it was even better than I thought,  it the best movie of the decade even better than Interstellar, Dunkirk, The Dark Knight Rises, it ties with The Dark Knight and Inception. I even think that Joaquin Phoenix is better in the Joker role than Heath Ledger, but it is hard to compare them since the roles are very different.

One of my top 10 movies of ALL TIME.

MASTERPIECE 

9 / 10

(Edited)
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cinephile

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If Joaquin doesn't win an Oscar, I will cry.
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Breumaster

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Don't cry. It's only a movie.
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joe siegel

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Sometimes we are so passionate about something that we are irrational, I almost cry when Leonardo DiCaprio won the Oscar and my family cries every year when his baseball team loses the season.
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Breumaster

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Just wanted to lower the dramatic part a little. When DiCaprio got his first Oscar, I was very emotional, too. Call me a fanboy, but Mr. DiCaprio was better than Tommy Lee Jones in 1993. He was young and there were other times, so Leo missed the Oscar, but (as a layman) I think it was unfair. DiCaprio always gives all to make it as good as possible. He is clever and made a pretty good movie with 'What's eating Gilbert Grape' & later 'The Revenant'. In Gilbert Grape he was outstanding and even Johnny Depp fades beside him in that good little movie.
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Breumaster

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Dudes! It's released just for two weeks and it's the second successful poll of the 43 that went online. For me it's  speed record ! --- 930 votes by today 10-09-2019.
(Edited)
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Dracko

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Despite how good Joker was, I still believe that TDK is the best thing that has left this genre overrated
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Breumaster

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From the point of now I think it won't happen that 'Joker' will get 'The Dark Knight'. But I also think that it's not because a lack of quality, more because it's of the view of a super villain. For that kind of issue the movie claimed a real big rating. I think many people of the audience can't cope with such a hard kind of story. Everybody (including me) wants to see a hero storie where the hero wins. But This is no hero story. So many people will not pick the 10/10. I did. I'd wonder, if there wouldn't be a nomination for the character developement through the story. Joaquin Phoenix did excellent!
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cinephile

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First, I highly prefer when the hero loses (more realistic), In a certain way Joker win in The Dark Knight he achieved his goal (to prove that anyone could become like him). Some people see the first degree, for example, they think that the goal of the Joker was to avoid getting arrested, he doesn't care about getting arrested. But this kind of people also think that Joker needs Batman to exist ( this is a myth), they also think that the Joker was a movie that will finish well,  that some hero will save the day, but they were wrong. And yes people love stories where the hero wins. Some people were expecting something less dark than Joker, for example in the theater when I went to the screening of the movie, there was a ton of kid, I don't know what they were expecting, it is obvious, if you see the trailer you know that the movie is not related to the DCEU. 

Basically, the movie is underrated because some people didn't get what they expected which prove that in our day to have a consensus is impossible, some person like me loves this kind of movie, some are disappointed.


This is not a movie for everyone.

When  I say underrated, I know that my rating is 9 / 10 as the actual rating of the movie. But the movie is closer to 9.5 / 10 in my mind.
(Edited)
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Breumaster

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I think most people like to see the hero win, because it's a bit of inner quality of the audience to associate with the good guys. So am I. But other than most superhero movie where there is a good and a bad guy, I think in real there are many gray areas. The world isn't good or bad like it isn't black or white. Superhero movies paint good and bad in a very clear sceme. But this movie isn't a superhero movie. It's more like a - so to say - real life study of a supervillain.

The point is, that the Joker is a victim of his circumstances as well as a victim of his mental decease and a victim of the whole society who can't cope with his decease and the primitive people who uses his "weakness" to make themselves feeling "big" by kicking him to the ground. ... Now there follows a spoiler, so to other users: If you don't want to be spoiled, scroll ahead, please! :) ...

spoiler
spoiler
spoiler

The moment when the Joker wan was, when he defended himself from the employees of Thomas Wayne, the three who offended and kicked Arthur Fleck at the train. Arthur shot in self defense and killed two of them. But then came the point when Arthur begann to hunt the third one who escaped. The third offender fled and therewith made clear to be no danger anymore. But Arthur changed at that point. He became from defender to hunter and shot him, too. That's the point when the story beginns to speed up. Arthur tasted blood and wanted more. The bad thing is, that it could be stopped earlier. The good thing is, that it's just a movie and this turn gave us an excellent story. ;)