Rejection of genre submissions continue to baffle me...

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Yes, I have posted this problem before, but it annoyingly continues,  

Titles are often not just identifiable with one genre.  To represent the truth of the title's content, more than one genre is often necessary.

For examples,  a Western/Comedy is very different from a Western/Drama.  A Musical/Comedy is very different from a Musical/Drama.  Almost every fictional title could accurately be described as a Drama or Comedy.  Or both.

Why is there so much resistance to this truth?

Are the guidelines so misdefined that they preventt the truth?

Please, do not refer me to the page listing processing tines.  This is a problem with the person (s) who is (are) rejecting many genre submissions,  
 
Acceptance of genre submissions is more realistic when it comes to lesser-known titles.  This only makes me wonder if there is a list of titles whose genres are frozen and can never be corrected or adjusted.  If so, could that list of titles be made public?

Thank you.

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Bradley Kent

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Posted 4 months ago

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Marco

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Are the guidelines so misdefined that they preventt the truth?

I don't think they are, but one can always suggest an improvement to the definitions (as listed here: https://help.imdb.com/article/contribution/titles/genres/GZDRMS6R742JRGAG?ref_=helpms_helpart_inline#)

My main problem with genres is, obviously, the lack of the five new genres that we've been waiting for for about nine years now...


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Bradley Kent

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There has always been the option for refining genre definitions, but they have not solved the problem, which is how those definitions are applied by genre list manager(s).

It is particularly disconcerting when rejected genres are genres that are identified in external reviews.  To deny those genres is to deny accurate research -- and the truth.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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To generalize this is not doing anyone any constructive service.
Be specific
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Bradley Kent

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A couple recent examples:

Heaven with a Gun (1969), like High Noon (1952), is an Action/Drama/Wesern/Thriller, NOT just a Western.

The Neo-noir The Killing Time (1987), like Body Heat (1981), is a Crime/Drama/Romance/Thriller, NOT just a Thriller.
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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It is particularly disconcerting to have you be cryptic as usual.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Then submit genre changes
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Bradley Kent

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I have, and they are not accepted.  That's the problem.
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Eboy

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Personally I feel that ”less is more” with genres. Many films have (e.g.) drama, but it doesn’t necessarily mean it should be added to IMDb.

One genre I do feel is missing is ”Children” (to me ”Family” is a bit vague), but I can live with ”Family” if it comes to that.
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Bradley Kent

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C'era una volta il West (1968) is a Western/Drama, NOT just a Western.

One-Eyed Jacks (1961) is a Western/Drama, NOT just a Western.

The genre that is most often rejected is Romance, and it would seem that definition is the one in most need of revision.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Almost all Westerns are Drama by nature. Adding Drama would be redundant.
Now Westerns with "Some Humor" should not have Comedy attached. But full blown comedy westerns like Blazing Saddles or the 3 Amigos or City Slickers by all means add Comedy
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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And I'm done talking Genres. Accept what IMDb says and move on.
So much time is wasted arguing genres, that it has become rather redundant in itself as a topic here.
Accept IMDb as the authority. This is not a democracy.
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Bradley Kent

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Yes, some Westerns have Drama as a genre, but some that should, don't.  The Western/Comedy examples that you give already correctly have those genres.  I'm concerned about omissions and corrections and deletions and additions.  My goal, as I first said many years ago in IMDb's infancy, is to help IMDb be as accurate and inclusive as possible.  That may be arcane or cryptic, but it comes from my researcher/librarian/historian/educator background, as well as having worked in the industry in varying capacities for many years.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Accept what IMDb says and move on. This is not a democracy.
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Jeorj Euler

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This is not a technocracy either apparently, may not even be meritocracy, so the remarks about lack of democracy are kind of irrelevant and impertinent. Instead, it is as though the biggest yacht in the sea is also the hardest to board, steer, maintain, upgrade or even replace, and on top of that, there is a mild rat infestation to go with it.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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The Titanic?
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Jeorj Euler

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I use yachts as an analogy, and yet the first thing somebody thinks of is a massive ocean liner that, fatally for more than half of her occupants, sank on her maiden voyage, survived by two-nearly identical sister vessels. Cool. Well, unlike the ocean liner, this recreational vessel is essentially the only of its kind, while disaster seems indefinitely postponed.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Tinytanic?
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Bradley Kent

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You're right.  It is not a democracy.  But, especially in the early days of its existence, IMDb was very encouraging of contributor input, and adopted many contributor suggestions.  It felt like family.  Now, it seems like a corporation --  which, perhaps, it always was.
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Michelle, Official Rep

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Hi Bradley Kent -

Please rest assured that contributor input is encouraged and we do review feedback seriously, often leading to internal discussions and changes in policies when warranted.  In the case of Genres, this is a tricky data type because people have different opinions on what classifications mean, this is why we have a set list of genres with definitions that are objective and subjective based on the content of the film (some genres we are flexible with while others we are not).

I have noted all the feedback mention on this thread for future Genre discussions among our team, and there are plans to revisit our genre list and definitions in the future.

For the time being, if you have submitted a genre that has been declined where you feel it warrants a second look, please post those submissions within this community with your argument and our staff can take another look at your request.
(Edited)
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Marco

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there are plans to revisit our genre list and definitions in the future.

I really hope the five new genres will be a part of this.
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Bradley Kent

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Thanks for the response, Michelle.  I have deleted many genre submissions out of frustration.  I will resubmit as many as I can recall.

For me, the problem is not about potential new genres, but how current (or updated) genre definitions are interpreted and applied by the staff.
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Bradley Kent

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190627-193004-982000 
Track Contribution
2019-06-27 19:30:04The Killing Time (1987)
Genres -  3 items added
190627-192844-379000 
Track Contribution
2019-06-27 19:28:44Ride the High Country (1962)
Genres -  1 item added
190627-192742-209000 
Track Contribution
2019-06-27 19:27:42Hang 'Em High (1968)
Genres -  1 item added
190627-192649-641000 
Track Contribution
2019-06-27 19:26:49"Rawhide" (1959)
Genres -  1 item added
190627-192505-380000 
Track Contribution
2019-06-27 19:25:05The Outlaw Josey Wales (1976)
Genres -  1 item added
190627-192145-947000 
Track Contribution
2019-06-27 19:21:45Hang 'Em High (1968)
Genres -  1 item added
190627-190125-280000 
Track Contribution
2019-06-27 19:01:25High Plains Drifter (1973)
Genres -  1 item added
190627-190038-045000 
Track Contribution
2019-06-27 19:00:38Pale Rider (1985)
Genres -  1 item added
190627-185933-059000 
Track Contribution
2019-06-27 18:59:33Per un pugno di dollari (1964)
Genres -  1 item added
190627-185823-451000 
Track Contribution
2019-06-27 18:58:23Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo (1966)
Genres -  1 item added
190627-185715-799000 
Track Contribution
2019-06-27 18:57:15C'era una volta il West (1968)
Genres -  1 item added
190627-185619-088000 
Track Contribution
2019-06-27 18:56:19One-Eyed Jacks (1961)
Genres -  1 item added
190627-185505-630000 
Track Contribution
2019-06-27 18:55:05Heaven with a Gun (1969)
Genres -  1 item added

More to come.

But... If they are not going to be processed, why bother?
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Will, Official Rep

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Hi Bradley Kent,

I can see that these submissions are still pending, please let me know if these are rejected and I can investigate further.

Thanks,
Will
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Bradley Kent

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So... All of these have been accepted EXCEPT:

190627-192505-380000 
Track Contribution
2019-06-27 19:25:05The Outlaw Josey Wales (1976)
Genres -  1 item added
190627-185823-451000 
Track Contribution
2019-06-27 18:58:23Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo (1966)
Genres -  1 item added
190627-185715-799000 
Track Contribution
2019-06-27 18:57:15C'era una volta il West (1968)
Genres -  1 item added

Why?  How do these differ from the others?
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Manish

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"This is a problem with the person (s) who is (are) rejecting many genre submissions"

So true.

I have myself tried adding genres and deleted the wrong ones, but as you said above, it really does appear that edits have been frozen, due to which the submissions get rejected within no time.

And then we have some intellectual users on the forum who think editors can never be wrong and that we need to be more "educated". 

There was a time when this genre addition system worked a little slower but more efficiently. I'd keep submitting again and again until I got finally added. Now, they quickly reject submissions and often cite the one reason:

"We couldn't find any evidence."

Well, if they didn't find any evidence that a film belongs to a particular genre that has to be added, then how exactly did they find evidence about the genres that have been present? 

I'm glad I'm not the only one struggling with this, Bradley. We must keep hope and see what can be done. Because there are editors and their supportive users who see even a bit of resistance as "unethical" and often try to make us stop.
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Will, Official Rep

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Hi Bradly Kent,

I've taken a look at those examples and they do not warrant the addition of the "Drama" genre. Most films by their very nature include dramatic moments, but shouldn't be listed with the genre Drama. If you were looking to watch a film in the Drama genre you wouldn't necessarily think to watch The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, which obviously you would if you were looking to watch a Western.

We have a ticket open to better define our genre guides to help clarify this point.

I hope this helps.

Thanks,
Will
(Edited)
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Manish

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Don't worry Bradley. Rules may change with time. All we need to do is be patient with them because once a post is answered, they'll not even bother to look at it again. If they're not gonna look, even we don't need to look at what others call our "flaws" when we are just trying to do the right thing. 

We need to bring together more users facing such issues so that we can cause some change. Because forget the editors, even a high-ranking user here is not going to listen to one/two users like us here. 
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Manish

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Don't worry Bradley. Rules may change with time. All we need to do is be patient with them because once a post is answered, they'll not even bother to look at it again. If they're not gonna look, even we don't need to look at what others call our "flaws" when we are just trying to do the right thing. 

We need to bring together more users facing such issues so that we can cause some change. Because forget the editors, even a high-ranking user here is not going to listen to one/two users like us here. 
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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That's right "Shoot the Messenger"! And so you don't take it the wrong way, which I absolutely know you will if I don't explain what that means Manish, is that the messenger is Me! Not you!

I am giving the message here, so don't blame me (Shoot the Messenger) for re-stating policy and the rules that the employees MUST follow. You 2 are not the only persons that won't listen and accept the rulings and will argue your point to the point of no one taking you seriously anymore.

Neither one of you know when you have crossed a line in dealing with defeat. Your not giving up and accepting the rulings by staff is in bad form.
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Manish

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Haha good one!

I don't know how I end up triggering you, man. All I did was console a fellow user. I can feel his disappointment, and that's why I asked him to be patient, and if possible, form a group of more such users to convince editors to re-think. That's all.

And no, the message wasn't directed to you. 
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Manish

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You really think, Ed, that mistakes are rulings? Great. Bye.
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Eboy

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IMDb staff has alteady explained the situation (probably in several threads), so it’s a bit like in sports: there are certain rules (”..a rule that defines how a sport is played”) that the players should know (or at least learn). Constant arguments with the refs or going against their decisions only hurts the team in the long run.


IMDb has certain rules and guidelines. So there’s no ”wrong decision” if someone is going against these rules. Or even violates them.
(Edited)
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Manish

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Well said, Eboy. But what if the editors aren't realizing they might be making mistakes? Are we still supposed to be silent and do nothing?

I'm asking this just as a human because none of us is flawless.

I'm not really saying the editors are wrong. I just want to know what you think.
(Edited)
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Bradley Kent

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"Always question authority!"  Just because someone is in control does not mean that they are always right.  Yes, IMDb is not a democracy, but, over the years, it has often responded positively to and even adopted contributor suggestions.  

Call me Pollyanna, but I still believe that truth will win out.

I am most concerned about how rules are inconsistently and contradictorily applied.  (Please note my three examples of Clint Eastwood and Sergio Leone titles, which make no sense whatsoever.)
(Edited)
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bderoes, Champion

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What I got from Will's post above is that "the rules" are different than what are officially posted ("We have a ticket open to better define our genre guides to help clarify this point."), and they're not willing to add to the clutter of Drama genres when Western suffices.

By wishing for consistency, in this case, you are probably justifying the removal of genre Drama for the other titles you mentioned.

If that's what you want, then you should see how submitting deletions (for the titles you mention here) will be received. I suspect that if those deletions are rejected, appealing them here on GS would get them deleted.

Or maybe until they've nailed down and published the revised definitions/guidelines, they're not willing to change genre tags on older, often-viewed pages like the films you cite.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Yes totally. Remove those genres make perfect sense!
Good eye. I was thinking the same thing myself. Was gonna do that without mentioning it. Bradley gets riled up to easy.
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Jeorj Euler

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We keep interacting with the "referees" when we really want to communicate the "game makers". That, right there, is the problem.