Artists with the same name

  • 14
  • Problem
  • Updated 3 weeks ago
  • Acknowledged
  • (Edited)
Well, while watching my favorite band's profile, SCANDAL (the japanese girl band), and noticed that, with the new style of last.fm, i thought that seems uncool to have all those tags about japanese rock and the profile of the album Yellow, but the most listened song is "The Warrior" (A song of the band from 1980).

So, I was wondering about, ¿This bands can have two separated pages for each one?
Also, SCANDAL and Scandal are diferent, first one is the japanese, second one is the american.
Thanks for reading.
Photo of Rubén Perez

Rubén Perez

  • 4 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like

Posted 3 years ago

  • 14
Photo of gw666

gw666

  • 386 Posts
  • 205 Reply Likes
This is currently not possible, but a planned feature for the future.
Photo of Pellitero

Pellitero, Alum

  • 924 Posts
  • 328 Reply Likes
Official Response
Hi Rubén,

When last.fm collects and displays the data regarding an artist, it uses the artist name metadata on the audio files.

The last.fm catalogue page url address (lastfm/music/artist+name) is generated with the same characters as on the artist metadata.

Because in these cases the characters are exactly the same (SCANDAL and Scandal), last.fm can't disambiguate them. Thus, you'll find all collected listening data for both artists are on the same last.fm catalogue page.

You can edit the artist wiki page (lastfm/music/artist+name/+wiki), and use BBCode tags in the wiki to differentiate the music catalogue for both artists.
Photo of Rubén Perez

Rubén Perez

  • 4 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
Well okay, thanks for the response!
Photo of Daria Barkova

Daria Barkova

  • 5 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Artists with the same name.

Could you please tell how can I correct an information about the band? For example, here: http://www.last.fm/ru/music/Tranquilizer. I've never heard any of the scrobbled tracks and I 've no idea what are the first two and last two photos, but 3rd,4th,5th,6th photos belong to the Polish band Tranquilizer, So there are two different projects! Thank you in advance
Photo of Stitch Mayo

Stitch Mayo

  • 1 Post
  • 0 Reply Likes
This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Bands and artists with the same name.

Several bands that I listen to keep getting usurped by unoriginal types using the same name. Is there any plans to change this? Surely there must be a way of marking which tracks are by who?

Prime example - Belly. 90s stalwarts of north east pop rock. There's now a rapper called "Belly" with lyrics that keep flooding the page and I get his picture on my artists page instead of Tanya & co.
Photo of Sam J Nicholson

Sam J Nicholson

  • 2 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
Any updates yet? My band, Quivers (Hobart, Australia) is confused with Quivers (Halifax, Canada). It won't let me update the shared listing to write that there are 2 bands with the same name:(
Photo of gw666

gw666

  • 385 Posts
  • 205 Reply Likes
I guess you cannot edit the band page yet for the spam protection, listen to some 100 songs on last.fm and you'll be able to edit. Anyway, I have edited the page for you.
Photo of Brad Peterson

Brad Peterson

  • 2 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
Hello: Is there any update on this? 
I've recently gone through this exercise with spottily (2 artists - both named Brad Peterson). After some minor tweaks to the database, the unique artist  now have unique IDs. I realize it's not a priority, but how can I help fix this?
Photo of lennie

lennie

  • 145 Posts
  • 134 Reply Likes
Are there any updates on this, now that the new catalogue is online?

The last (official) status I have found is this one here: https://getsatisfaction.com/lastfm/topics/there-s-another-artist-or-band-with-the-same-name

Photo of Mark Davess

Mark Davess

  • 8 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
My question too. Funny you only have the choice of 'helpful' on that page but not the opposite. The answer has been 'we're working on it' for so many years it's hard to take seriously.
(Edited)
Photo of Mark Davess

Mark Davess

  • 8 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
Last.fm has'been 'working on' this for over a decade (i.e. not working on it, it likely having a minor affect on revenue, because big acts rarely have this problem and will swamp the scrobbles of small ones with the same name). With the big use of algorithms on this site (like the one that will redirect you to a similarly named band's page, block editing of the first band's bio and forcefully combine their scrobble counts), you'd think an algorithm recognising tracks from different bands with the same name, plus a way of giving each artist page a separate id number or something, would be doable.Maybe work wit RYM's help (no, don't buy them out, but pay them to make use of their disambiguation).
(Edited)
Photo of jazzthieve

jazzthieve

  • 96 Posts
  • 88 Reply Likes
You sound like someone who's not very familiar with the way how lastfm works. Editing isn't blocked by algorithms, it's almost always mod intervention. Don't pretend to know how last.fm (you probably mean CBS) earns its revenue. Redirects are corrections, not redirect to similarly named band pages. Your RYM idea also doesn't make much sense. RYM doesn't have an API and lastfm is already sourcing data from musicbrainz which is arguably better for the job.
Photo of Cornel Diaconu

Cornel Diaconu

  • 756 Posts
  • 321 Reply Likes
Wow, @Mark, you surely have very little idea about how last.fm works, and clearly don't even bother to read about it, to clarify your unknowns.
Should've you done that, you'd known by now that there is no such thing of redirecting an obscure band to a similar named one with greater fame !
There simply are artists with the same name (mostly due to their fault in not searching for an unique name, or rather to make a profit from the fame of an older band with same name), and due to poor design at the beginning, these bands share the same page on last.fm !
No such thing of big ones swamping scrobbles of little ones !!! This is so ridiculous that you have no excuse other than ignorance !
Where did you even got this idea, anyway ?
Come to your senses and read the FAQs; you may start from this page: https://getsatisfaction.com/lastfm/topics/there-s-another-artist-or-band-with-the-same-name

There surely are bad artist redirects (and there are plenty, as it sadly seems), but there is even a page here on getsatisfaction to report them (here:  https://getsatisfaction.com/lastfm/topics/incorrect-artist-re-directions )
Sometimes, in a not so far away future, these reports will be taken care, and solved.



Photo of Mark Davess

Mark Davess

  • 8 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like

Cornel,

I'm really enjoying your condescension. It's very valuable in taking conversation to a deeper level of effective exchange of ideas. You are to be applauded.

As for the rest, although it's of course highly justified and indicative of an admirable intellectual thoroughness to accuse me of...:

1. Making up an error from fantasy and not having experienced it (that " there is no such thing of redirecting...").

2. That I think it's a deliberate "redirecting an obscure band to a similar named one with greater fame", i.e. to purposefully and actively favour the famous ones.

3. Not having read and understood the pages you linked to, or the issues they address..

,,,, regardless of the value of you drawing those conclusions so quickly, you are wrong. 

I've for many years understood fully why there is not disambiguation for artists of the same name. It's very simple. The scrobbles are just reading of the artist name from the source, attributed via that name alone and no other identifier or cross referencing. The creation of an artist page results from that too, thus one page and all scrobbles with that name as artist going to that page. A simple reading further of what I wrote shows I understand that, as I talk about perhaps both using unique identifiers (RYM id, for example) and also by facilitating that via cross referencing (track & release titles). I understood that quick enough, i.e. 13 years ago, before even I wrote bios for multiple bands with the same name, also going back more than a decade, like this one, for example: https://www.last.fm/music/Sedition/+wiki

That's point 3 answered, though you're likely to put this answer into another overly narrowed fantasy context that satisfies your fetish for condescension too.

As for point 2, if you just read what I wrote, i.e.: "not working on it, it likely having a minor effect on revenue, because big acts rarely have this problem and will swamp the scrobbles of small ones with the same name", I'm simply talking about why there's no incentive for last.fm to try and solve this problem, thus they've been 'working on it' (NO, I don't believe them) FOR OVER A DECADE WITH NOT A HINT OF EVEN AN ATTEMPT TO COME UP WITH EVEN AN IDEA OF HOW TO SOLVE IT. All I'm clearly saying is when big acts tend to rarely have other bands taking their name and when even if that does happen their scrobbles and info, pictures, etc. will swamp the others and sideline them completely, then the page is OK for the majority of fans, and so the site decides not to worry about those bands who were swamped and basically end up as minor features, virtually invisible, on the band page. Thus last.fm leaves the situation alone and likely isn't 'working on it'. I in no way suggested some active redirecting, etc. to deliberately favour big bands. That interpretation is your own 'ridiculousness'.

As for point one, try going to this, correctly named page: https://www.last.fm/music/Pobeda

The page automatically redirects to the page for ‘Popeda’, a very different band in many ways.

Now it’s relevant to bring in jazzthieve’s condescension too.

Firstly, this editing block is not ‘mod intervention’.The redirect automatically results in you only being able to access the bio via the ”noredirect” function and then produces errors if you try to edit the bio for the page you didn’t want to be redirected from (in this case the actual Pobeda page, here: https://www.last.fm/music/+noredirect/Pobeda). I know this from DOING IT.

And yeah, I understand, that this is likely a result of Popeda having songs misattributed to Pobeda and there being corrections made by users and mods. But still this is a situation where automated processes are involved and  clearly scrobbles are being all attributed to Popeda (you can see it on both pages, plus Popeda became one of my top bands for the week despite me never listening to them).

But the main point to make to both of you is WHY THIS COMPULSIVE INSULTING CONDESCENSION?

Why the insistence I must be an idiot without knowing my context or trying to understand it?

Why the “Don't pretend to know how last.fm earns its revenue”? I didn’t pretend any such thing. I simply suggested how there seem to be automatic algorithms at work here and how that meant maybe such systems could be part of solving that problem, and also I suggested a potential rationale as to why last.fm isn’t really motivated to work on solving the ‘same band name’ issue.

Why the relish in ‘knowing’ how it works and dissing mere suggestions? I’m not obliged to know that RYM doesn’t have an API or about the use of Musicbrainz, etc. Nor am I ashamed. My point was: the site has automated functionality and access to more than just band name so....And also to suggest why maybe CBS isn’t motivated to really work on it. That’s ALL I said and the right to make those suggestions was all I made claim to.

And Cornel just decontextualized and distorted my words, claiming I’m ignorant with no evidence. And why even go there if I am? What could possibly be the use in your ‘you clearly don't even bother to read about it’ (and, in fact, I’d read both those pages before this post, which is not contradicted by what I wrote, if you just read it properly) or ‘This is so ridiculous that you have no excuse other than ignorance !’? And this ‘ridiculous’ thing is in actual fact NOT WHAT I SAID).

Seriously, do you guys just sit alone in your dark rooms where you are the God of that small, lonely space, looking for posts to read badly so you can sneer at people at a distance and feel superior? Do you seriously think that’s a ‘contribution’ here?

And, yes, I’m being also condescending here, and sarcastic too, etc., but in response to your insults.




(Edited)
Photo of Cornel Diaconu

Cornel Diaconu

  • 756 Posts
  • 321 Reply Likes
Hmm.Okay, let me start by apoligizing for what made you inflame like this.
Honestly I don't understand why do you find what I wrote an insult, but I apologize.

And than, let me take my turn, won't you ?
With this statement:
"With the big use of algorithms on this site (like the one that will redirect you to a similarly named band's page, block editing of the first band's bio and forcefully combine their scrobble counts)"
I'm sorry, but this implied to me than, and still does now even after your reaction, that you have a firm impression that these redirects are made somehow on purpose, and maybe even with malevolent intentions.
Your example with the Russian band Pobeda being redirected to Swedish band Popeda may even subscribe to my point.
Are you sure that you really understand what's going on (considering that you implied to be a pretty old user of last.fm either) ?
The following statement:
"And yeah, I understand, that this is likely a result of Popeda having songs misattributed to Pobeda and there being corrections made by users and mods"
sorry, but makes me doubt somehow: I don't find any misattributed songs from one to the other; due to the decision that the name Pobeda is wrong, and it should be Popeda, the scrobbles from those 2 bands are mixed up; in a wrong way, of course.
As if there would be a redirect from a band named Victory to a band named Veectory.
While both are 100% legal/real bands.
When you say "missattributed" implies a belief of intended action from last.fm.

I can't see here (Pobeda to Popeda) other than a stupid mistake. Perhaps there is even a funny story about it, if the person responsible for creating it remembers that time and is willing to share the story.

As for why these bad redirects are still not solved yet ... your guess is as good as mine; or maybe not so much alike, since you prefer to give them bad intentions, and me not so much.

I don't understand why do you came to hate last.fm staff for this situation; after all this lingers for a huge number of years (in terms of last.fm age, of course); and being an old user you surely lived with it just as I did for a long time.

You pretend/imply that the staff does not change this because CBS does not have enough incentive to do this; possibly for the benefit of "big acts".... why ? This situation was the same even before CBS acquired last.fm !
Btw... what benefit could have the French band Phoenix from "collecting" my scrobbles of Romanian band Phoenix. Or CBS for that matter in this situation ? I don't even listen the songs of the French band.
Sorry, other bigger example I couldn't find to be closer to your point (with big acts vs small ones).

These last 3 years sort of cleared out/emphasized that there were other directions much more important and pressing, like changing a new foundation for the very site (database, catalogue); they seem to be close to have these done and released, but yes, not there yet, with a lot of overdue.
Yeah, I know also that some updates were only posted as if only imposed politically by CBS high hierarchy, not as if by the technical staff as an advance/real improvement of the site.

P.S. How come you seem to know for so sure they don't have an unique ID for artists, songs, albums etc. ? Just judging from the fact that it take so long to implement the disambiguation that was so many times promised ?

I have an old export of my data made before the 2015 switch to the new layout (2008 and 2013 for this particular samples):
"ISO time"               "unixtime"     "track name"         "track mbid"                             "artist name"       "artist mbid"                             "uncorrected track name"    "uncorrected track mbid"                "uncorrected artist name"    "uncorrected artist mbid"               "album name"        "album mbid"                             "album artist name"    "album artist mbid"                      "application" 
"2008-02-24T14:29:45"    "1203863385"    "Eternal Odyssey"    "35259d3f-827a-41bd-9c9b-2dc2104cc2ab"  "Delerium"          "4279aba0-1bde-40a9-8fb2-c63d165dc554"    "Eternal Odyssey"           "35259d3f-827a-41bd-9c9b-2dc2104cc2ab"  "Delerium"                   "4279aba0-1bde-40a9-8fb2-c63d165dc554"   "Chimera"          "dea951ef-e0d0-498d-89fa-c1459876b73a"   "Delerium"             "4279aba0-1bde-40a9-8fb2-c63d165dc554"   ""
"2013-07-15T20:09:57"    "1373918997"    "All Will Pass"      ""                                      "Dead Cinderella"   ""                                         "All Will Pass"            ""                                      "Dead Cinderella"            ""                                       "Happy Everyone"   ""                                       "Dead Cinderella"      ""                                       "Clementine" 
so you be the judge of how bright or dumb the scrobble algorithm was than;
I could not imagine how different would these lines look like if done today, should the export option be available again, but I don't expect to be changed in a spectacular way (more fields in the header, etc.)
I clearly remember that they always said that they collect the proper ID necessary for eventually making the disambiguations. From the above samples, I'd say that this is confirmed (artist mbid, album mbid).

In your particular example, I bet that your scrobbles for Pobeda have different "artist mbid" as opposed Popeda, so at the proper moment in time when this will be finished, you will really have your scrobbles to the right artist.

This is to address you partial lack of complete understanding implied by this statement:
But still this is a situation where automated processes are
involved and  clearly scrobbles are being
all attributed to Popeda (you can see it on both pages, plus Popeda became one
of my top bands for the week despite me never listening to them).
I always remember the staff continuing to mention that in this situation the actual scrobble (record in the database) is NOT made for Popeda, but to Pobeda as you played it ! You only see Popeda because of the redirect.
And at the right moment, you should see them correct.
Maybe even before disambiguation is implemented, if this redirect if removed.

Ah, when will this become real ?
"Soon" :-)  (that's my hope, anyway).


Photo of Mark Davess

Mark Davess

  • 8 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like

Thanks Cornel.

I'll just try to answer your points in order.

You meant no offense and apologize, fine. Thanks. But all the same I think you might benefit from reading what you wrote: you immediately told me I'm ignorant, you then insisted I 'don't bother', you then not only distorted what I said, but actually got into how 'ridiculous' I am and how it must all be my 'ignorance' (adding exclamation marks all over the place too). 

This is in addition to how you distorted my points into ones they are not (which, in fact, you're still doing), therefore continuing to assert my ridiculous ignorance by accrediting ideas to me that I actually didn't express. The problem here isn't so much that I'm bothered how you perceive me or represent me, but the turning of the issue into a pointless piece of 'look how stupid you are'. I can't see it as anything but an 'anti-contribution'.

A paraphrasing of your message to hone it down is:

"Wow, @Mark, you are ignorant and lazy. You failed in your reading. You believe there's a conspiracy between CBS and major artists to push out minor artists and steal their scrobbles [I didn't say this]. You are ignorant of how bands with the same name are scrobbled the same [nothing I said suggested this]. Your ideas are ridiculous, you are ignorant, how could you have such stupid ideas? I'm so convinced of your ignorance and laziness I'm going to assume you haven't read these threads" [I had read them]. 

Read your message; that's an accurate and full summation of the functional meaning of what you wrote. You say ‘I don't understand why you find what I wrote an insult’, OK, all I can say in reply is “I don’t understand why you don't understand why I found what you wrote an insult”. It’s even pretty clear to me that you WANTED to insult me. The message is little else but ‘you are ridiculous’.

And now here you turn to this redirect issue into another opportunity to talk about my lack of knowledge (apparently all the same accepting now that that redirect problem happens – and I’ll repeat to you again, that all my initial message says is that this happens, that there seem to be automated features within it, and that last.fm seemingly just leaves it, like it just leaves the pages with multiple bands with the same name). You do so quoting this:

"And yeah, I understand, that this is likely a result of Popeda having songs misattributed to Pobeda and there being corrections made by users and mods" 

...and then, correctly, or at least reasonably, I would say, pointing out that that doesn’t seem a good explanation. I agree. Fair enough. I wrote that to concede to the other commenter, who also wanted to lord over my ‘ignorance’, that it’s possible, as he said, that corrections somewhere led to this error.

A key point to make here is this isn’t a competition about who ‘knows’ and understands more. That is pointless, irrelevant, a distraction. I’m not obliged to know, just to say what I see and suggest ideas. I don’t ‘know’ what correction process is causing or caused this,, whether by users, mods, automated somehow, or any combination of any of those factors, either to individual tracks, perhaps with cumulative effect, or just by one blanket decision that ‘Pobeda’ is a typo and should always be attributed to ‘Popeda’, or whatever other possible reason,  That I'm ‘ignorant’ or not can only be relevant to those who want to create a hierarchy where they’re ‘above’ me in their superior knowledge.

I actually thought to say to jazzthief that it’ seems unlikely, because they have different song titles (The Russian band mainly in English, the Finnish one in Finnish, very distinct), both names are likely clear to their listeners, seeing as not only do they know the bands, but they mean clear things in their respective languages (‘Popeda’ = ‘The Popes’, ‘Pobeda’ = ‘Victory’) and writing a ‘p’ instead of ‘b’ seems unlikely (though it’d be a logical thing that someone might MISHEAR the name in this way). Your words ‘your guess is as good as mine’ are right, I agree. I don’t know how it works (& I didn’t claim to, though jazzthief insisted on digging at me with ‘ Don't pretend to know’). ALL I was saying is that IT HAPPENS, and in some part is automated. Both your and jazzthief’s jibes at my ‘ignorance’ are pointless exercises in condescension. It’s irrelevant and what you quote here is me just conceding to jazzthief that his theory is possible, like any other that has some sense. The only relevant fact is that it does happen, as you see. The scrobbles merged, the small band’s page messed up and almost blocked by the resulting automated redirecting and accrediting of listens. Yeah, could be a stupid mistake, that makes sense to me, even a not stupid one, could be some algorithm that recognises the one letter difference and defaults to the very popular variant if the other is unpopular, maybe not, maybe one, simple, manual act of moderation, as you say ‘your guess is as good as mine.’ I don’t care who knows more. If you and jazzthief want to be ‘more right’, please, be my guest, enjoy.

And I’ll try again with what you still say here is ‘that you have a firm impression that these redirects are made somehow on purpose, and maybe even with malevolent intentions.’ This is just utter projection of your own fantasy onto what I actually said (plus your mixing up the redirect thing with the same-page thing, though they are related). What I said is that last.fm have LEFT this to stay as it is. That’s all I said. There are pages combining several artists like this, and the scrobbles all go to the same page, and it gets LEFT ALONE, unfixed, unchanged. The scrobbles simply DO combine, inevitably, no-one’s deliberately, let alone ‘maliciously’, doing this. I understand that it happens and why. There can NOT POSSIBLY be anything purposeful or malicious in this. It’s just usual function.

I also in no way even hinted that this is a way to make more money (‘earn revenue’ as jazzthief put it). Here’s EVERYTHING I said on this matter:

[last.fm seemingly is] ‘not working on it, it likely having a minor affect on revenue, because big acts rarely have this problem and will swamp the scrobbles of small ones with the same name).’

All I said is that the issue of there being bands mixed up on one page and their scrobbles merged, info, photos mixed, etc. ‘likely has a minor affect on revenue’, i.e. doesn’t cause much LOSS of money, because big acts rarely have other acts taking the same name (you suggested some do it to cash in on the other bands’ fame, but even if possible it’s got to be rare) and that even when it does happen, they have so many scrobbles that the other acts with the same name are swamped and hardly affect the pages from the point of view of those artists and their listeners. Thus no serious-scale problem for the site that would affect revenue. Thus it’s natural that it’s not a priority for last.fm.

You say I’m saying they’re possibly doing it ‘FOR big acts’. I neither said nor suggested that. I didn’t even suggest they’re doing it for their own profit. I didn’t even say they’re ‘doing’ anything. I said that the situation as it stands does not lose them much, if any, revenue, thus they have little incentive to solve it. And I’m not saying that their leaving it as it is for years is ‘malicious’ or even neglectful. I’m just saying it makes sense.

You talk about other priorities, but I never denied them. I’m even saying just that: that there are reasons this isn’t a priority. I have no problem with them prioritising other things. You say “I don't understand why you came to hate last.fm staff for this situation”, but I didn’t even hint at hatred, even judgement, that this is the situation and has been left like this for years. I actually gave some rationale for it.

The only thing I have a problem with is the long-term brushing us off with ‘we’re working on it’. You make the point that ‘this situation was the same even before CBS acquired last.fm’ to dismiss my ideas, but it has zero relevance: not only did I only say ‘CBS’ to respond to jazzthief reminding me who owns the site now (I was talking about last.fm in what I wrote), but regardless, I never denied that it was the same under previous ownership, and, in fact, that’s my exact point; that they’ve been saying ‘we’re working on it’ for years and years, since even well before CBS took over.

And I don’t even blame them for leaving it, for it being only an issue affecting less popular artists on the whole, not affecting most fans in a big way, etc. Nor do I even blame them for trotting out ‘we’re working on it’ for a decade or something. All I was saying is that there’s no real sign of incentive to change this (other priorities, fair enough, that this affects few users (and thus revenue, which last.fm is not wrong to use as a major factor), fair enough) and I wish they’d stop saying we’re working on it’ and either fix it or admit they’re never going to get around to it.

That was never ‘hate’ from me, nor judgement, nor accusation of malicious profiteering, or even unreasonable convenient neglect, any deliberateness in merging pages or scrobbling AT ALL for ANY reason, or even any incompetence, laziness, whatever. Any of that which you think you find is your projection, and I have to admit, seems all about a compulsion to see others as ‘ridiculous’ and ‘ignorant’ without actually listening to them.

You ask me ‘How come you seem to know for so sure they don't have an unique ID for artists, songs, albums etc?’, so I ask you : where did I say I’m sure of any such thing, or even suspect either way? I didn’t. I simply am saying that surely they ARE capable of it and could implement it. You seem to prove that they actually ARE working on it, so fair enough, and again it’d perhaps be a chance to criticise me for ‘not having bothered’ to read the posts, etc. about it, so thanks that you didn’t do that, but I’d say again that I’m not obliged to have seen more than ‘we’re working on it’ for years, and that I’m within my rights to expect to actively see a result or find a page on the issue with more than the same old explanation I long ago understood and nothing more suggesting something than ‘we’re working on it’. And I’ll repeat: fair enough that it’s hard, that there are other priorities, that even they don’t ever have to do it, that just saying ‘we’re working on it’ is maybe the best approach. I was merely expressing an opinion on it, which you transformed into hate, ignorance and conspiracy theories that I didn’t even hint at.

Your final point about the scrobbling working all the same for tracks, just the redirect affecting the artist info is a good point, and correct as far as I can remember. But you’re digging at my use of the word ‘dumb’. I’ll remind you, I’m talking about an algorithm. Also that ‘dumb’ actually means ‘can’t speak’, though in slang it can mean ‘stupid'. I’m using it here with the common kind of mixed sense (thus why it has come to mean both those things) of just acting passively, doing what it does automatically with no self-awareness, reflection, revision etc. The algorithm can never be stupid. It does precisely what it does, unfailingly. And almost certainly it mostly has desired and positive effects, but because it has no reflective will of its own (is ‘dumb’; i.e. silent, passive, non-reflective), it will keep doing the same even when that causes problems. That’s not saying it’s bad, just that in this context it causes a glitch. And that is most definitely not a criticism of whoever wrote it or decided to deploy it; as I in no way denied, that could have 99.9999% positive outcomes, just that here it also unthinkingly works where it causes problems, whatever the initial cause,

So, no hate, no conspiracy theories, no blame, no disrespect. If you want to continue thinking I’m ignorant, ridiculous and stupid, feel free, but I’m sure this is not the place to bring it up.



Photo of Mark Davess

Mark Davess

  • 8 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Crude Redirect Algorithm.

Why does Russian rock band Pobeda redirect to Finnish rock band Popeda? Dumb algorithms? I thought adding a bio might help, but the system won't let me (yes, I'm logged in to last.fm). Their page is taken over by this Finnish band with a different name - links to pages, location, dates, everything.
Photo of mclarge

mclarge

  • 41 Posts
  • 15 Reply Likes
Hey Mark, 

This has really confused me as Pobeda is a valid artist on musicbrainz, I'm guessing just a bad misdirect somehow?

I just tried manually scrobbling their track Fight Club from the album Atlas Stands using openscrobbler but nothing's appearing on my profile at all, for either Pobeda or Popeda, which seems insane as I've never encountered that as a problem before. Hoping this comment at least bumps the thread for a mod to find.

I'll check back in if my manual scrobble does appear for either band.
Photo of mclarge

mclarge

  • 41 Posts
  • 15 Reply Likes
Quick update, i managed to scrobbled the correctly named Pobeda manually using openscrobbler, now showing on my profile

Seems silly that you have to manually scrobble the songs to avoid the re-direct, but it's an option to use.
Photo of Mark Davess

Mark Davess

  • 8 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
Cheers. I can't remember exactly, but I did something like this too, and have at other times. Either editing the scrobbles my last.fm page, editing in a chrome scrobbling extension, or using 'manual scrobbler' or 'universal scrobbler', which are similar to open scrobbler. My 'artists' stats still show this Finnish band, although the scrobbles for the tracks are correctly attributed to Pobeda, and if I click on the band name 'Pobeda' on the tracks, it still redirects to 'Popeda'. Plus if you override the redirect and go to the actual 'Pobeda' page, you can see that their tracks are combined with Popeda's (drowned out by them), the dates, etc. are all for the other band too. Plus, having the '+redirect' in the address seems to mess up the bio editing function (or, if that's not the reason, it's messed up anyway).In the end I'm more bothered by how this is messing the band about than myself. 

I'm kind of bothered that this is now merged into the 'bands with the same name' thread because these 2 bands have different, if similar, names.
(Edited)
Photo of Mark Davess

Mark Davess

  • 8 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
Actually, Cornel reminded me in his reply, the scrobbles are successfully registered for Pobeda as individual tracks, just the redirect of their page leads to Popeda ending up in your artists, thus this manual scrobbling being unnecessay (though you seem to have had another issue, which you got around in this way).
Photo of mclarge

mclarge

  • 41 Posts
  • 15 Reply Likes
Oh sorry man, I thought I read that you had ended up scrobbling the wrong band due to the misdirect and popeda turned out as your top artist one week? Was only trying to suggest something to help with that :) hopefully staff see this and fix the bad redirect soon for you
Photo of Hans-Jürgen

Hans-Jürgen, Moderator

  • 2175 Posts
  • 1138 Reply Likes
Please also read this FAQ:

There’s another artist or band with the same name?

Especially the last paragraph:

"When will artist disambiguation finally be supported on Last.fm?

Our goal is to build a self-updating catalogue that fully supports Artist Disambiguation (one name -> many different artists), and Aliases (many names -> one artist). 

This would mean that artists with the same name would be correctly separated out into their own pages, with separate listener and scrobble stats, charts, albums, similar artists, tags, and so on.  Likewise, artists with multiple valid names (e.g. 水曜日のカンパネラ || Wednesday Campanella), would be treated as the same artist entity (i.e. their stats and tags would be merged), without necessarily needing to redirect to one page or the other. 

Since relaunching Last.fm in late 2015 we have been steadily laying the foundation to support these features in our new catalogue system; however there is no definite timeline or ETA at present as there is still plenty of work left to do.  We apologise for any inconvenience caused by this and ask for your continued patience and understanding, as this is not a straightforward task that can be completed in a number of weeks, but an ongoing effort.  When we have more definite news to share, this article will be updated."

Correcting wrong redirections will be part of the new catalogue system which isn't ready yet. The new scrobbles database was the most important part of laying the foundation for it though, and it is recently being rolled out to all users starting with subscribers e.g. enabling scrobble editing.
(Edited)
Photo of Da Nova

Da Nova

  • 3 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
Time for last.fm to switch to a system based on an artist numeric id rather than the name itself. Like all music catalogues in the world. Why does Spotify (for example) get this right https://open.spotify.com/artist/7FATHSqWUvJTAARkWcvnT4 while here we find a great "salad" with post, The Post, PoST and everything else... ?
(Edited)
Photo of Cornel Diaconu

Cornel Diaconu

  • 756 Posts
  • 321 Reply Likes
Hi,
you're example turns somehow against you; both Spotify and last.fm display an equal salad when you try to find for the artist Post.
They are equal bad on giving relevant results for this particular name.
Algorythm of last.fm gives strange results, okay (potsu ?? Soul Position ??? very strange connections with the searched word which was "post").
But where did you got the idea that last.fm keeps their track of artist names based only on names ?!? I don't find any grounds for this.
Photo of gw666

gw666

  • 385 Posts
  • 205 Reply Likes
Spotify does it wrong all the time, I had a christian choir song in my weekly mix that had the same name as a black metal band.
Photo of Da Nova

Da Nova

  • 3 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
I mean artist pages or profiles. On Spotify they are univocal. Here they are not. This artist on Spotify url is a number, here is a name (Post).
Photo of Da Nova

Da Nova

  • 3 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
I asked spotify support to isolate my releases and they did it right. If you have a system based on profiles like Spotify/artist/1234 this is possible. If you have last.fm/music/Post this is not.
(Edited)
Photo of Cornel Diaconu

Cornel Diaconu

  • 756 Posts
  • 321 Reply Likes
Ah yes, the disambiguation feature is a long promised option, and I also am eager to have this, finally available.
But I wouldn't want the current format of the artist's page URL to be changed; I find this much more useful this way : on an opened artist page I simply type in the URL the new name I want to land to and that's it, the system open the new page, eventually giving specific error if I spelled an not-existing name.
In the Spotify way I have no way to go to the artist in your example (PoST), if I can't find/spot it in the large list of results.

Internal means of identifying an artist is sure based on an unique ID (in the least it can be the mbid, MusicBrainzID, which I know is attached to each scrobble saved in my library); you can be certain it's not based simply on the name.
Photo of caligo hearts

caligo hearts

  • 1 Post
  • 0 Reply Likes
Can someone fix the profile https://www.last.fm/music/Lulu?
One is an older artist and one is upcoming with only 2 songs but more is coming
Photo of mclarge

mclarge

  • 41 Posts
  • 15 Reply Likes
The older artist is an OBE with 15 studio albums, they’ll share the same page if the newer artist shares the same artist name, unfortunately that’s just how last.fm works, there’s no way to differentiate between artists with the same name. If you look at the bio on your link above you can add your newer artist to the list, it looks as though there is already another mentioned.