Subscribers should get back the "recent visitors" information

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  • Idea
  • Updated 1 year ago
  • Under Consideration
Having been a Last.fm addict for the past 10 years I absolutely love the site even with these problems with the latest incarnation of it, and I would absolutely love it to become a subscriber again like I was for several years before the major update last year. Despite the idea of financially supporting such a fine website being a noble and imo a very good one, for me personally it's not quite enough for such a small amount of perks.

I loved the recent visitors view on the old website, and if that came back I would definitely subscribe again. I think a lot of old subsribers feel the same way about this, in its current state there's not much worth subscribing for, but with this small tweak it might make a difference. Is there any plans for making this happen again?
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Wiraccc

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Posted 3 years ago

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Jon, Community & Customer Services

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Yep, this is something I feel strongly about too.  What I know is that the product team are currently re-evaluating our subscription offering, with a view of offering more compelling subscriber perks around data and the overall site experience. I'll make sure they consider this, as I know a lot of subscribers liked it.  

That said, it does raise a few privacy concerns - in the past we got complaints from users who subscribed for radio, and didn't like how uneasy / exposed the feature made them feel. There were also various reports of stalking, which were difficult to verify and action (viewing someone's profile isn't technically against our guidelines).  So if were to bring this back, I'd want to see these addressed somewhat.
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Wiraccc

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Good to hear it's at least being thought about. I personally would immediately become a subscriber again if this became available again, and I'm sure people like me outnumber the ones who had issues with it by quite a lot. It was also a great tool to find other users with similar music tastes, therefore enhancing the social experience on the site.
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Jon, Community & Customer Services

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Yeah, I don't disagree with you on this.  I'm going through our jira tickets, and it looks like this was planned last year, but didn't move forward for some reason. I'll see if I can get it reprioritised. 
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Andreas_Wotte

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"as I know a lot of subscribers liked it.
I've heard something in this way too. ;-) With other words: Good to hear this.
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simillarian

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Just please don't make features that used to be free before the new site be behind a paywall when they are re-implemented. By the way, I am not referring to the recent visitor list that this post is about.
(Edited)
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Wiraccc

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Any news on this?
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Jon, Community & Customer Services

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No news yet, sorry.
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garynotrashcoug

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That said, it does raise a few privacy concerns - in the past we got complaints from users who subscribed for radio, and didn't like how uneasy / exposed the feature made them feel.
It could be a feature which subscribers can opt out of in their profile settings?
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Jan

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"which subscribers can opt out of in their profile settings" so one needs to pay to get privacy? Seems like a dick move.
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Bonnie

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I just want to say - I've been a Last.fm/Audioscrobbler member for more than ten years (I was in middle school when I joined!).  I used to be a subscriber, but I stopped once the "recent visitor" section and also the section where you could write a profile were no longer available (I think the profile section was not subscription-dependent, though).  I would re-subscribe if those features returned.  I know one single measly members' subscription doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, but thought I'd voice my opinion anyway.  I don't want Last.fm to go away. :)
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Profoundemonium

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This was pretty much the only reason why I paid for the subscription, so there has been no reason for me to renew since its removal. The stalking issue doesn't really make sense since the person can still visit your page no matter what. There should simply be an option to show or hide blocked users from the recent visitors.
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Wiraccc

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I'm not sure if it would be too hard to make happen, but they could make it so that subscribers could also "opt-out" of the recent visitors view, so that they don't see one on their profile but don't show up on other subscribers' lists either. Like with read receipts on messaging apps, you can choose that the people you're messaging doesn't know when you've read it, but you won't know when the other person has either.
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Tom Stephen

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I didn't pay subscription for this option when I was subscriber, but after seeing that, I fell in love with it, so I agree - this option have to come back. If this option was after this terrible beta, I should not cancel subscribing.

So, I hope it will be done someday, maybe earlier than later. 
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michael james

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i've been missing this feature since it left and its the primary reason i didn't renew. the recent visitors were a huge part of what made last fm 'social'. Also, I still don't like the 'follow' feature. The 'friends' feature made a lot more sense to me as it was a real connection. Simply following someone on here doesn't seem to have a point to me unless I'm missing something? This isn't like twitter where you see a social feed so 'following' someone doesn't really mean anything. So yes, please bring back the recent visitors and I'd love to see the old 'add friend' instead of a follow.
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Wiraccc

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Still waiting to see this happen, as it stands subscribing isn't really worth it, bringing the visitors back would completely change that.
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Jamie

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Story about the visitor thing from back in the day, I noticed I had 6 new visitors every time I refreshed.  Every.  Time.  It freaked me out, so I mentioned it to a more internet-savvy friend.  Turns out my stalker had made a page on 4chan about me, linking my profile.  Telling people he was obsessed with me. All those visitors were the people on that 4chan thread.  It was so weird.  So yeah, there is a stalking element to lastfm, but it's not affected by the recent visitor perk.  That thing actually exposed it to me.  So definitely bring it back!
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Ottovillem

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What's going on with this? :D 
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Jon, Community & Customer Services

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Nothing's really changed, it's not a priority for us right now.  We'd still like to further develop our subscription offering by giving subscribers more benefits but recent visitors raises privacy concerns, so it's hard to make a strong case for, when compared to other subscriber features we could be building instead.  

I realise it's disappointing, but please understand that the recent visitors feature made a number of people very uncomfortable on the site and that's not something we ever want.  Last.fm is about sharing your music taste with the world, and that's very personal -- so it needs to be a site people are comfortable using.  We have to consider both the benefits this feature would bring to one group of users, versus the discomfort (and in some cases distress) it would cause to others.  

Probably the only way to make it work is to have settings to hide it from the profile, and give everyone the option to opt out from being visible on the site (or, more likely, opt in) , at which point the feature starts becoming a lot more work for an unclear benefit (some people can see some recent visitors).  Put that in context with the list of other potential subscriber benefits we could build that aren't controversial (e.g. more customisation options, more last.week modules, editing tools perhaps, etc) and it becomes harder to justify why we'd build this over those. 

Not saying we won't, and I'll continue to raise it for consideration, but for the reasons above and our current resourcing, I think it's unlikely to move forward any time soon.
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Cornel Diaconu

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Hi @Jon,
it's understandable (and even mandatory, to be fair about it) from your point of view to give close attention to privacy concerns of users.
But, please, see this option in the following light, also:
- some user wants to visit my profile (which is pretty much OK from my part), but at the same time opposes that I am able to see that (that he did visit my profile page).
This seems quite strange: one is permitted to roam on other users homepages, but those users are forbidden to learn about such visits. Hmm... I don't quite find the logic in this.
After all, the requested facility only has to be the old way of listing  recent visitors (a simply mention of the user and eventually the moment/day of the visit) -- I don't see anything that breaches any privacy  here.

If it were to judge some old site facilities, it was that history of recent activities (such as: you posted something on "forum X" --- with link to that particular post; or posted comment on user Z shoutbox, and again with link to that shout) !
That ones were much closer to be judged as partially breaching user's privacy (okay, sometimes I liked such notifications, but I admit that there's legitimate concern about them).

Maybe above thoughts will help to give a stronger case for this option.
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Matthew Lowery

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@Cornel Diaconu I mean, it's actually fairly straightforward: You do not have, nor have you ever had, a right to see who views your profile. You cannot do so on Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, or any other social media platform. It is completely standard across all internet social media platforms that you have no entitlement to know the identities of everyone who comes across your profile. You are not "forbidden" from learning about who's viewed your profile, you simply have no right or entitlement to it in the first place, particularly when the privacy concerns are so acute.
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Cornel Diaconu

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Ah, @Matthew, thanks for getting this to my attention.
So, who decreed that I have no right to see you visiting my profile page ?!?
You ?!?
And why ?!?

And what if I want to set my profile so that YOU will not be allowed to see it (doesn't matter if I have a real motive for this) ?
Hmm ?
What should I set in my profile settings to forbid your particular user to see my page ?
I can't do this? Why ?!?
One of my friends (followers) just has such a situation: due to someone stalking her, she activated just about any protecting feature on her profile, but the best this could do is to forbid ANYONE to see her activity (shouts, last played list -- that's all that is restricted, actually).
Wouldn't it be better that she could forbid just that particular user to see ANYTHING on her profile (this being done first by this feature discussed here: see who visited her profile) ?

Don't you realize you sound like a stalker with this ? (you should have absolutely all rights to come to my place, but I should never be able to see when you checked my page).
All this under the pretext of protecting your identity and habits.
Nice.

PS Speaking of examples of other sites, especially Facebook: such a protecting umbrella for peoples personal data they have .... I am the one who is supposed to change in my settings so that I should not receive some friend's birthday .... Yeah, very logic about this.
If I don't want others to be notified about my birthday, I simply can't do (and also .
Premium example for privacy concerns, Facebook is...

Brrr... what a world is this...

P.S.2 Yeah, I'm already resigned to the fact that this will NOT come back to any user (subscriber or not). A lot of people could not see the forest for the trees...
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Jan

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"Brrr... what a world is this..."  Here's a concept that must be foreign to you. Your "right" ends where it infringes upon the other's right. It is my right to not disclose whether I visited your page. Thus YOU have NO right to demand that you do see it. It's a privacy matter and that is indeed a right.

"Wouldn't it be better that she could forbid just that particular user to see ANYTHING on her profile (this being done first by this feature discussed here: see who visited her profile) ?"
It seems you didn't thought that one trough. A user merely has to log out and your entire argument becomes meaningless.
Your suggestion is convoluted and ineffective and all just an excuse to have it your own way no matter what. The simplest solution is just to let the user decide if he/she wants to be visible. From how it stands now it seems it's too much a hassle and a balancing act between privacy and user's wishes for the developers to implement so it seems you'll likely not have it your way.
(Edited)
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mc666

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I don't understand why this feature is such a privacy concern. When I didn't wish to be seen viewing someone elses profile, I simply viewed it from a browser that I wasn't logged into my account on. Easy peasy. Do that, or simply don't view other profiles. It's YOUR choice. No one is forcing you to view the profiles of others. Why should paying members loose out on a perk that they loved, simply because some people are to daft to log out before they view/stalk members online? Last.fm profiles have always been public, therefore easy to view. Perhaps add a feature that allows a subscribed(?) user to not be seen by anyone/registered/subscriber/etc. Maybe even make this feature a public one. Seriously... this is worth more thought that you guys are giving it.
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Iden

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So agree!
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Jan

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"When I didn't wish to be seen viewing someone elses profile, I simply viewed it from a browser that I wasn't logged into my account on"
Wrong, I still want to compare stats if I visit another profile, this is not possible when logged out. So essentially I'm being forced to reveal myself visiting in order to do that which is not my choice. You're completely right....you do not understand.
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carnagexcandy

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Last reply: 5 months ago
Jan: Muawhahahaha, I'mma reply to people who probably no longer view this conversation!
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Cornel Diaconu

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@Jan ... you're proving you are the one that understands very little about privacy rights.

So you say you have the right to be invisible when seeing my profile, right ?

Like wanting to come inside my house and I am supposed to be forbidden any way to see that you <are> inside my house, because otherwise I'm breaching your privacy rights (I'm not even saying you want to do anything wrong, just take a look on my pictures on the walls, or admire my interior design).
What world are you living in ? Hmm ?
That's the privacy you're "preaching" around ?

I think that things should be exactly the opposite: on my page I should have absolute right to see who is visiting it, and in an ideal form of website (I mean ideal powerful scripts behind any page) I should even see exactly what page in my library you are visiting, and for how many minutes/seconds !! Doesn't matter if you're only reading the main library page, or investigate what songs of the band U2 I've listened/scrobbled  in May 2015).

If you don't like being logged about your visit in when visiting the homepage of a subscriber, you just refrain yourself from visiting it. That's the simplest way of putting it. It was like this before, and should be the same from now on.
And the privacy right for both parts would be intact.

Despite the fee-faw-fum about privacy breaching, this approach would increase the social part of last.fm (as it actually <did> on the old site, from my personal experience .... about 50% of my actual friends/followers were made after I was notified about their visits on my page, since I was a subscriber even then !!! )

Nota bene ! I consider that this right (to see exactly what other users are doing in your homepage) should be universal, not just for subscribers !!
This would be an enormous advance from last.fm part.
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666

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I know this is a public profile, but at the same time there are stalkers everywhere. I had 3 stalkers and this is not funny and it is a concern when a stalker views your profile every hour or so when leaving comments to someone you follow or a band you like. I like lastfm for the music and the people I follow and for the band I like. These people I know in real life.
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Patrick

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I know this is a music site, but I would love if the Moderator team installed the radar, and allowed subscribed users to have it on the profile to see who is spying them. I would also love if the Moderator's team could give us an opportunity to see who liked the comments on the profiles of musicians that people write. Because I lately noticed that, a large number of Internet trolls that start malicious conversations received a large number of positive votes. Usually, such comments end up destructed by fans they never get special attention but lately, I noticed the comments left by Internet trolls started getting a large number of positive votes. It would be great to know how many people have agreed with them and in this way see who is cheating and who abuses this function. The same goes for the radar; it would be great to see who is constantly following you and report it to the Administration to expel him from the LFM service. I hope you will agree with me that LFM site has more trolls and Internet bullies than for the last 15 years.
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666

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I also want this option back and I will subscribe again.
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G.G.B.

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The situation should always be totally clear to both sides. My requirements would be:
  • Being seen as a visitor should be optional
  • To see visitors of your profile should be optional
  • If a visitor comes to a profile page, he should see if the owner of the page has enabled "seeing visitors" (meaning his visit could be seen by the owner) or not.
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mc666

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If you don't wish to be seen as a "recent visitor", then DON'T visit. Or simply log out of your own account before visiting. It's all up to you, the visitor. It is not a legitimate privacy concern. If I don't wish to be videotaped shopping at Walmart, I simply DON'T visit a Walmart. It's not complicated.
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G.G.B.

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Logging out to keep a visit private is just a workaround, not a good solution.
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mc666

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That's my point. You don't need complicated solutions to non existent problems. Just use common sense and there is no problem.
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G.G.B.

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Looks like this is no problem for you. But I could imagine there are users who don't want to be seen when they visit a profile, they would have a little problem. It becomes quite uncomfortable if they have to logout every time they explore the page. Also they can't use the functions of the site when logged out, like messaging and seeing the profile compatibility.

Some users don't even want to see their visitors, because for example people could come visiting all the time just to get attention and annoy you. Also being able to see visitors could prevent people from subscribing because they don't want their visitors to feel observed. Therefore I'd like it to be completely optional on both sides. 
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Wiraccc

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Mc666 is right on the money here. I was a subscriber for years when we had the recent visitors available, and if I didn't want to be seen by a subscriber I simply visited the profile in another browser window, it's not that hard. I didn't even do that very often because let's be serious, why would it be a big deal for you if someone knew you visited their profile?
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G.G.B.

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I think the hardness of this partial workaround is not the point here. As a neutral fact, this feature as it used to be exposes the profiles of logged in visitors and forces subscribers to be able to see their visitors. I prefer the option to choose freely what I want to see and what can be seen of me.
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Jan

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"If you don't wish to be seen as a "recent visitor", then DON'T visit. Or simply log out of your own "

No. I want to check up on my profile logged in and be able to compare other profiles with my own. This is not possible when not logged in. I shouldn't need to have to reveal to others when or not I was there. As I said before, it's none of your business when I'm visiting the site or not.

Your comparison with visiting Wallmart isn't the same. People don't advertise their presence to everyone when visiting Wallmart (unless of course they want to). You'd have a point if for example every social media account you have would announce online you've stepped into a Wallmart store and the anouncement would be forced with no option to change. Would you want to have that and then someone say to you  " here's a solution: just simply don't visit wallmart then, it's not complicated"
Yeah, I don't think so.
(Edited)
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Wiraccc

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It seems to me that the people rambling on about "privacy" and not wanting to be seen were never actually subscribers back when we had this info. I have never heard anyone who had that feature to complain about this, even though they knew full well that they might be seen visiting someone. Since Last.fm doesn't have any sort of "feed" or front page where you could see what your friends are up to, it's perfectly normal to visit your friends or other people's pages and unless you're doing it every 15 minutes I don't get what the problem is to let the other person know about your visits.

This feature was also perfect both for starting new friendships and rekindling old ones on the site, when you saw that an old friend you hadn't spoken to in months or years had stopped by. It's becoming obvious that it's not coming back, but I think the privacy concerns are very much overstated and obviously this feature would bring a lot more subscribers than any small tweaks to the Last.week.
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Jan

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"It seems to me that the people rambling on about "privacy" and not wanting to be seen were never actually subscribers back when we had this info."

Rambling on? Privacy is a legitimate concern so please don't try and diminish valid objections like that. Let's try and keep this civil. Also, I was a subscriber for a few years in the beginning so don't try and assume things to suit your argument.

" I have never heard anyone who had that feature to complain about this"
Yes, because anecdotal experience is always a good and valid argument. Consider your experience corrected by reading this thread.

"... I don't get what the problem is to let the other person know about your visits. "
Yes, it seems you obviously don't. Perhaps and example would make it more clear. Lots of people listen to music while working but not all bosses would agree to that and a last seen feature would make it available for the boss to track your business on the last.fm page remotely without you knowing.
It's like: "hey Bill, did you work that client for that contract we talked about? Yeah? Then why did I just saw you visited your music profile 10 minutes ago?


"This feature was also perfect both for starting new friendships and rekindling old ones on the site"
It's also a great way to the opposite. It's not as if I want to talk to anybody's friend profile I visit. Mostly, I merely want to view a profile. If he starts chatting, you better reply then because anyone would feel obligated.

"privacy concerns are very much overstated "
No. You just never encountered a situation where that information could be mishandled and are blissfully unawareof any potential negative to the point you want to enforce others to not even be able to opt out of this recent visit status.


".. and obviously this feature would bring a lot more subscribers "
Speculation at best and the fact you give no logical argument for why you think so makes me doubt this very much.
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Jon, Community & Customer Services

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Official Response
I had a chat about this with our head of product last week, and I want to clarify that this is very much still up for consideration.  I didn't say "we're not doing this because privacy", I said "there are privacy concerns that need to be addressed". It may be that we present this information in a slightly different way to make it more useful and accommodating to users.  As far as resourcing is concerned though, that hasn't changed, so I can't see this being prioritised in the immediate future, but if/when it moves forward, we'll update this thread.
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Jan

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Let's just hope it NEVER ever gets done. Let's see how German law would think about your concepts. They at least can make a fist against policy like that. Even google got shut out with their street map project. Would be handy to route a VPN via Germany then.
(Edited)
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lola

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This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Where are the recent visitors to the subscribers?.

I signed the plan, and under the conditions one of the things the plan offered was to see recent visitors. But I can not see it. This is misleading advertising. If I can not see my recent visitors, I will cancel my subscription and make the necessary arrangements.