I’m frustrated

Thunderbird 3 Is All Hype!

Please let me know where to download THUNDERBIRD V2.0.0.23, for new builds, as Thunderbird 3 is not practical to use, for myself, and a lot of average users, despite all the hyp.

1 I am told it does not support Lightning, so all the work people have put into their diaries is lost.

2 The header pane is huge, and cannot be minimized, so the readable area for emails is too small.

3 There is another toolbar for tabs, which further minimizes the readable area for emails to almost nothing.

4 V3 does not support some addons, so not enough development was put into it before release.

5 I don't see the need for tabs, as I could do everything I wanted, really easily with V2.

6 The above was enough for me to find Thunderbird 3 impractical, so I have written it off.

Whilst there is a lot of hyp about Thunderbird 3, for the average user who just wants to do their emails, with the known and trusted old Thunderbird that they liked, Mozilla have had the arrogance to force them to have V3 against their wishes. Doesn't this remind you of a certain big software manufacturer.

WHAT'S THE SOLUTION : surely it would have been better to keep Thunderbird 2 and and improve it, then release V3 as Thundercat for all the experts who want something new.

Quite frankly, I am disgusted at Mozilla doing this, because people have put a lot of work into Firefox and Thunderbird addons etc, and I have recommended them avidly for 18 months, only to be faced with people complaining, that I have given them bad advice. I now feel Mozilla are untrustworthy.

Regards Bill3,

PS I hope someone will pass this on to the Mozilla Directors.
7 people have
this problem
+1
Reply
  • I’m ticked off.
    I am in agreement here. I have been using Thunderbird 2.x on my desktop with Linux and encouraged my Stepmom to move away from Microsoft Office to OpenOffice and Thunderbird. She hates 3.0, while I love 2.0. Tabbed browing, several bugs and issues with viewing pictures in emails, unable to turn tabbing off (wtf, Firefox has this feature, what is with Thunderbird NOT having it???) as well as several other issues that has caused her to steer away from the Mozilla project as a whole and migrate back to Windows. I am very disappointed.

    John
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • I’m sad
    Hi John, re above,

    Thanks for that, glad to hear someone else holds the same views as me. You have obviously examined V3 in depth, so I would be very grateful if you and others, would contribute your critique, as detailed individually numbered specific aspects, as I have done, for final submission to Mozilla.

    I am aware this may take a little time, as good technical writing, takes skill. However, don't you think we owe it to Mozilla, for providing such excellent software to us for free, so by providing good advisory feedback, I'm sure they will fix this glitch in their over enthusiasm, with V3. They surely didn't do this deliberately, and will definitely want to restore their exemplary reputation.

    PLEASE EVERYBODY POST LINKS TO THIS ON OTHER SITES.

    Further aspects

    7 The design philosophy should be to maximize the viewable area of the email, without having to use the full view facility, because this will suffice for most emails. This could easily be improved on V2.

    8 The design philosophy should avoid elitism, so a simple version is kept for novices, old people, and those only interested in a simple email client.

    9 New versions should only be put on general release, after they have been tested by the experts and debuged.

    10 Radically new versions should also be trialled by Mozilla on ordinary people, with average skills, to ensure functionality, and user friendliness. It is amazing, how after exhaustive design and production, this simple trial, reveals the most fundamental flaws, as demonstrated with V3.

    11 Mozilla should undertake to be responsible in future, as V3 has wasted a lot of my time, and how much of others.

    Regards Bill3
    • "The header pane is huge" - mine went to 4 lines from one. I installed the "compact headers" add-on, but, it doesn't offer less than 2 lines. Expanding headers [+] now actually gives less info than it did before.
      "There is another toolbar for tabs" - I emptied that toolbar, but it won't go away. Now, it's just an empty toolbar wasting vertical space. People suggest using Options-Advanced-Reading & Display-Open messages in to eliminate the Inbox tab, but that doesn't work. The Inbox tab remains even if you're not opening in a new tab.
      "I don't see the need for tabs" - it adds another line that can't be used for reading emails. I tried this feature, but don't ever see myself using it. (I use FF tabs all the time.)
      "The design philosophy should be to maximize the viewable area of the email" - keep the interface (flexible but) clean. Let people who need more features expand the interface as they need.
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • Bill (and others),

    I think it is very important that you voice your opinion in such detail, as this is something the people at Mozilla Messaging can learn a lot from. I admit that the timing of the current release (in regard to add-on compatibility) and the changes in the user interface might have missed some of the average user's needs or have, at least, not been communicated ideally.
    Nevertheless, as a Thunderbird (and Firefox) user for many years, I would like to address some of your concerns directly in the hope that the information I can provide might allow you to give Thunderbird 3 another chance.

    Re 1 ("Lightning"): It is correct that, at the moment, there is no stable version of "Lightning" to work with Thunderbird 3. Yet you can use so-called "nightly builds", which are the latest developments of the add-on and will eventually be released as a final (and stable) version. You'll find instructions on how to obtain these in other topics here on getsatisfaction. Personally, I have been working with these builds since Thunderbird 3 has been released and I'm highly satisfied (as I had some issues with "Lightning" and Thunderbird 2, which have been resolved). Also, as a side note, the calendar data is stored separately from the program, so no data will be lost when switching from one version to another.

    Re 2 ("Header Pane"): I agree with your observation in regard to the header pane: it is bigger than it needs to be. You might find the following "CompactHeader" add-on helpful, which allows you to customize (even minimize) the header pane: https://addons.mozilla.org/de/thunder...

    Re 3 ("Tabs"): This reaction sort of reminds me of some statements that followed the release of Firefox 2, when tabbed browsing was introduced for the first time. I completely agree that it is a somewhat different approach on displaying email and I have not fully adjusted to it either, but I don't find it to take too much space, especially since the main tool bar has been decreased in height. But, as with Firefox, this seems to be a question of personal taste and as far as I understand, you, like most people these days, wouldn't want to miss it (in your browser).

    Re 4 ("Add-ons"): True, but this is less a question of Thunderbird development than add-on updating, which needs to be done voluntarily by the corresponding developers. So one option to get your preferred add-on updated might be to contact its developer directly, kindly asking for an update for Thunderbird 3. Maybe he/she is willing to do the extra work the more people start using Thunderbird 3.

    Re 5: See 3. Before Firefox 2 was released, most people didn't see the need for tabs in a web browser either (otherwise they could have used Opera, which had them before, I believe.)

    Re 6 ("Impracticality"): I'm sorry to hear that and hope the information provided might lead to a reconsideration.

    Re 7 ("Design Philosophy"): I imagine every possible design concept is a compromise of different approaches and therefore never completely appealing to everybody. Anyhow, I am sure you know that you can adjust the size of almost all the visible elements of the Thunderbird GUI to fit your needs.

    Re 8 & 10 ("Simplicity of use"): A very good & important point which should be continuously considered for future releases. When looking at new features like the "Mail Account Setup Wizard", it seems to me that Mozilla Messaging has just that high on the agenda already.

    Re 9: This, with all due respect, has happened. :)

    I hope the points made were helpful and contribute to a continuous improvement of Thunderbird and the individual user experience.

    Kind regards.
    • view 1 more comment
    • Hi, Joey,

      You have clearly taken a lot of time/thought to compile that reply - that is MUCH appreciated.

      I'm NOT a particularly "savvy" user, I just like something simple, that WORKS!

      I'm discouraged when I see ALL of the references about Add-On after Add-On, just to get it working - this SHOULD be part of the basic functionality - Add-Ons should be about Personal Preferences & Extras!!

      I cannot believe that the issue of Lock-Outs was NOT seen before General-Release, NOR do I understand why the Search Facility is now SO-CRIPPLED (on my PC it now takes FIVE MINUTES to undertake a simple "Sender" search, which used to take a fraction of a second - maxing out my CPU @ 100% during the 5 mins).

      As a final point, you mention "Tabs". Even I have managed to noticed that these have been introduced - I just CANNOT find any info that would indicate how they are to be used!! Certainly, there does NOT appear to be any mention of them within the "Migration Assistant", nor does raising that question seem to obtain any response!!

      Regards
    • Just adding another comment:-

      I notice that, under "What's New in Thunderbird 3", there is a "new feature" called "Activity Manager". I've even managed to see that it is listed under "Tools".

      However, opening this up just presents me with a virtually blank pop-up window - with NO explanation about what it is supposed to do!! :-(

      The ONLY option appears to be "Clear-List", but since the page is blank, this seems to be meaningless!

      Regards
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • Hi Joey,

    thank you very much, for spending so much time, on your comprehensive advice. I appreciate your effort, and admire your expertize.

    I would really like to have an icon like yours, but when I uploaded a photo, it displayed as a huge photo, instead of a 20 mm square icon, so please tell me the secret of how to do it.

    Please realize that I only deal with the truth in this post, and apologize to Mozilla and everybody else, for any hurt it might cause, but there are big benefits from addressing them.

    I carefully read you advice, and saved it, but unfortunately it illuminates a most unsatisfactory situation, such that I will still have to warn people against V3, and rename it :-

    BLUNDERBIRD 3

    I think you are a expert who really enjoys breaking in new software, a person who the average use relies on, and are most important to the development to computer software. However, form your standpoint, you need to empathize with people of much lower skills, and needs, ie the average user. Please read CAREFULLY, everything I stated below 6 in my original question.

    Now imagine me explaining all the fixes in your answer, over the phone, to an old senile retiree of 84, who is really irate with Blunderbird 3, because he wants to do his emails NOW, to his relations in Scotland. Alternatively, the housewife, with almost zero computer savvy, and 2 small demolition experts, for children, raising hell in the background.

    RESULT

    Mozilla have inured people a lot of inconvenience, wasted a lot of peoples time, and been flagrantly irresponsible with the trust they have gained from people, thus severely ruining their reputation.

    Further Aspects

    12 Principle of complaints in business :- People do not like to complain, as they don't have the courage, so for every complaint, there are a 1000 others who haven't, provided there is structure behind the complaint.

    13 Principle of good business :- Understand who your customers are, and how to satisfy their needs.

    14 Principle of business failure :- Smartarse your customers with something they didn't ask for, and doesn't work, then try to bullshit them into believing it is really great and fixing it themselves.

    I am not being sarcastic here, just imagine if you had bought a car with such serious faults as Blunderbird 3. Also, I have seen this happen with a lot of big companies, who were being managed by executives, with a lot more experience and qualifications than my Business Degree.

    CONCLUSION

    I and others, have unnecessarily wasted a lot of my time on Blunderbird 3 and writing posts, and cannot afford any more, so I hope someone will find a way to pass this on to the directors of Mozilla.

    In the meantime, I will just use V2.0.0.23, which works beautifully for me and other people, and we do not care how old fashioned it is, we just want something that works.

    Regards and thanks Bill3.
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • Hi all.

    Thanks for all the feedback. We're definitely hearing it.

    For every change we make, there are people who like it, and people who don't. With millions of users, that's unavoidable.

    We're definitely going to be taking in the reactions (both positive and negative) and reserve the right to change our minds in subsequent releases. Thunderbird 3 is the result of a lot of feedback -- we've had tens of thousands of users of our betas and nightly builds. Many of those users gave us feedback in a variety of channels. We've made many, many changes in response to that feedback. And we'll make more, looking at the totality of the feedback.

    I encourage people who make add-ons to "undo" some of the changes in TB3 to post links to them here, so that people who are unhappy with the changes can customize TB3 to be more like what they're used to.

    Oh, about add-ons -- we realize that add-on compatibility is a big issue for some users. That's why we haven't turned on the switch which offers TB3 by default to all TB2 users -- we want to make sure that a good number of the most popular add-ons have TB3-compatible versions first. We did have a bug in the service whereby some users may have been offered an update too early. We apologize for that!
    • Hi David,

      Please read all of

      THUNDERBIRD 3 IS ALL HYP

      as I spent a lot of time narrating important design and business formula.

      Do you really THINK, the policy of making addons to cure V3 problems is good sense, please think about this carefully, along with all the other policies in your narrative above.

      Is sending this is a pro forma comment going to solve your policy problems?????.

      Have you really thought of who Thunderbird users are ?????????
      Are they all experts, who want to get involved in developing V3, or are the majority Mums, Dads, children, retirees, novices, amateurs, etc, who are just people who need an email client that works

      Regards Bill3
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • Bill3 --

    I have thought about who Thunderbird users are -- both today's users and tomorrow's. I fully agree that many aren't experts -- I'm not sure where you get the impression that I think otherwise.

    In fact, I don't think that there's a single "mode" (statistically speaking) of thunderbird users. We have a lot of different kinds of users, including all of the categories you name, and many others. We have users with new computers, users with old computers, users with big screens, users with netbooks, users who care hugely about security, users who just want something that works quickly, etc., etc. We have executives, secretaries, retirees, students, professionals, hackers, governments, etc.

    I don't believe that any one configuration is ideal for all of them, which is why making add-ons easier (to build, deploy, find, adopt, share) is one of the areas that we're pushing hard. As an example:

    - we're hoping to get Collections working with Thunderbird, so that people can build sets of add-ons that work together well. I'd like to see at least one targeted at "restoring the TB2 way" for those people who liked it, but still want some of the benefits of TB3.

    - we're hoping to get something like Test Pilot working with Thunderbird, so we can get better metrics on our user's behaviors -- that way we'd be able to make decisions based on better data than what we have available today.

    I do think that we need to evolve Thunderbird to reflect a changing world, and that for some people, some of those changes aren't going to be right. And having good add-ons is one good way of dealing with that issue.

    --david
    • view 1 more comment
    • Hi, David,

      It does NOT bother that there may be some extra "Bells & Whistles", but it DOES bother me that these are provided to "FORCE" myself from operating my email the way that I wish.

      I do NOT want to find that my Email Client is locked-out NOR do I want the Search Facility to now take FIVE MINUTES, for what it used to do in a fraction of a second (NB during those 5 minutes it manages to lock up my PC because it is maxing out my CPU @ 100%).

      Furthermore, I find it amazing that, despite ALL of the adverse reactions (with specific specified problems highlighted), this Thread can be marked as:- "The company marked this problem solved."
    • This comment was removed on 2009-12-17.
      see the change log
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • I’m sad
    Honestly, I'm not really sure what I expected form TB3, but in any case, it has been a real disappontment so far. No real useful new features, lots of cludges introduced that now require add-ons to disable, less room on my screeen to actually read a mail, and most of the stuff Bill3 mentioned above.

    Downgrading now - hoping _that_ works...
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • I have to agree about the wasted space on the email header bar.

    The design philosophy seems to have been "make it look like Outlook" -- if I wanted Outlook, I would use Outlook!

    I would really like the option to remove tabs - I do use them a lot in Firefox, but really don't see the need here, especially when it eats up valuable screen real estate.

    Back to the mail header -- I would also like the option to show the email address as well as the name - I know its an option for people not in the address book, but it should be configurable globally.

    Actually, thinking about it, I think I would like the ability to suppress this header completely. I know which email I selected, its there on the screen, name and subject highlighted -- why do we need to repeat it? Maybe just the To and Cc info ... Especially if the mailbox header pane allowed functionality such as clicking on the from section and copying email address etc. In fact all of the new functionality should probably be available from that pane, not crammed into a new header.

    The horizontal line when dragging a message to a folder is also annoyingly large.
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • My complaint is nothing to do with the zippy new features - if they work, I'm OK with them. I'm mostly upset at how buggy TB3 is. I mean, there's gobs of stuff that just doesn't work. The most astonishing is that I can't add or rename mail folders. TB3 tries to send a copy of sent mails to a "SENT" folder - except there isn't one and I can't even add one. What is there is a "SENTMAIL" folder, but TB3 doesn't see it. As a result, there's no record of sent emails. Is that retarded, or what?! Then there's the whole matter of "Smart" stuff that isn't too smart. What are "Smart" features supposed to do? Nobody knows! So I should be able to delete them, but I can't. And on and on . . .
    • This comment was removed on 2009-12-16.
      see the change log
    • JJJoseph, you can change out of the smart folders view and into the all folders mode from the View -> Folders option out of the File menu area. The all folders mode was what the original TB2 used.

      I'm not sure why you don't have a sent mail folder. If some of the settings have broken during the upgrade you can go to your Account Settings (from the Tools menu) and change your chosen sent folder at the Copies & Folders option.
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • I also went back to T2. There's likely a lot in 3 that would be useful, but none of it that I can understand. The costs were obvious; the benefits less so.

    Also, the "automatic" account set up forced me into an imap (whatever that means) when in fact I have a pop3 (whatever that means) account. It would connect with my email site and then say "searching for folders" but never actually get any mail. After two days, I finally called my email supplier and set it up manually. That worked. but I have gone back to T2. I have enough hassles as it is.
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • I’m sad
    Hi John,

    I had no idea Blunderbird 3 caused such serious problems.

    Imap is a complexity in itself, details in Googlemail, so stick with Pop

    How many man hours has Blunderbird 3 wasted, I wonder, and it keeps getting worse. Its cost me 3 man days so far, and I've still got to phone a lot of people to warn them how bad Blunderbird 3 is, so they don't update, or I'll have more problems.

    I think MOZILLA'S name is going to become synonymous with DISASTER, ie

    MOZASTER

    They just cannot understand, that the average person just wants something they know, like, and works, but they as experts want to experiment on us. They really should release Blunderbird 3 under a new name, for experts to play with.

    I can't afford to spend any more time on this matter.

    Regards Bill3.
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • Hi Bill and others,

    firstly, I am once again quite delighted by the possibilities this platform provides: you ask for the directors and you get them. Thanks David! :)

    Secondly, in response to your statement above, Bill.
    I wouldn't call myself an expert on the matters of software development, I am rather a regular user, probably "breaking in new software" (as you put it) a bit more enthusiastically than others. By education, I am a lot more concerned about the issues you raise in regard to different people's perceptions and the resulting usability of the program.
    In your original post, you highlighted several concrete problems, which I hoped to address in my response. I was well aware that these solutions wouldn't work for everybody who might find it hard to adjust to the new version of Thunderbird. (Again, as side note, I think it's great you know of seniors working with Thunderbird in the first place. I wouldn't know of anyone.)
    Now I understand that you are not fully satisfied with the current release and you're obviously not the only one having difficulties. As I mentioned before, I think it is very important for these concerns to be raised. This allows for a continuous adjustment/improvement of the software, considering all the experiences made by different user groups. What we probably all assumed (and David confirmed): there is a very wide variety of users and it is a real challenge to appeal to every single one. One strategy chosen by Mozilla (which has proven to be very successful with Firefox) is to make mostly everything adjustable via add-ons. A very good approach, I think. Obviously, this becomes a problem if people rely on add-ons which suddenly stop functioning, e.g. Lightning - something Mozilla Messaging might have underestimated in the first place. That's why we, the regular users, should be here to tell the software experts, who can actually write the lines of code to make the necessary changes.
    In my opinion, an open dialog as in this thread can greatly facilitate this process. If continued, please remain respectful towards everybody.

    Best regards.

    PS: I think, I uploaded an icon/avatar in a similar size than is displayed now, but resizing really should be done automatically by the platform.
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • Problems solved: I re-installed TB2 & Lightning, and everything's back to normal. I'd normally keep trying to fix a mess like this, but I can stand only so much pain in my life. Losing a functional email package (at Christmas time) is just too much stress for a normal person.
    • MOZILLA JUST DIDN'T THINK, WELL SAID JJJOSEPH.

      INTRODUCING BLUNDERBIRD 3, A TEST VERSION, 15 DAYS BEFORE CHRISTMAS WAS SO INCREDIBLY STUPID, AND INCONSIDERATE, IT BEGGARS BELIEF.

      On this basis alone I, I wrote Blunderbird 3 off.

      I have tried to give them sound principles of management philosophy, but they have their heads in the clouds, and want to control people, INTO SPENDING THEIR CHRISTMAS WORKING ON MIDNIGHT FIXES ETC. How totally crazy.

      Regards Bill3
    • JJJ: Please detail the steps you made to re-install TB2. I hear that people have lost all their old email. I cannot afford that risk.
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • I have been trying to love TB3 ... but sorry, its a failure.

    It is built around someone's specific view of how they think an email client should be. There is very little support/customization/configuration available to map it into other usage patterns. if I changed the way I work and think it would probably be ok ... but maybe not, there are still the performance issues.

    As one hint, the way I (and and awful lot of other people) work is to have the three pane view, accounts/mailboxes to the left, message headers top-right, and a big chunk of screen allocated to the message body bottom left.

    Messages are read right there, in the bottom-right pane. TB3 obviously wants you to double-click the header and read the message in a new tab, so they see no problem in taking up tons of room on the message pane -- well, it IS a problem to me. Thats not how I work, and it should support how I (and a lot of others) work.

    Another hint - and I have had this discussion over a bug I opened on TB2: I DO NOT want a unified view of my mailboxes. It may be useful to some people, but not to me (and, I suspect, a lot of other people). I want to be able to segregate the mailboxes to the point where I don't even see the email headers for the other mailboxes until I have authenticated those mailboxes -- that was my bug report. Its about security, its about privacy.

    If some people want the unified view, fine. Support it. But don't force it on everyone.
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • David - I know, but the default is to unify everything - which says a lot about the thought processes of the designers.

    Same applies to search - its search everything (the unified view), or lose all of the new features.

    In fact just about all of the new features are directed towards a unified view -- where on earth did you get the idea that this was what most people want??? it may be useful to some people, but certainly not in any sort of professional/commercial setting.

    One other thing I forgot to mention - Archive function seems pretty useless, all it does is dump EVERYTHING into a single folder with no structure. The very least this could wo would be to put some semblance of order in its archiving - sub-folders based upon the name of the sender, for instance. After a few weeks of use that archive folder will be just unmanageable.

    BTW - this isn't twitter, the @ is redundant.
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • I’m sad
    MOZASTER COMING WITH BLUNDERBIRD 3

    Business Statistics

    1 For every person who complains, there a thousand silent, who you never see again.

    2 People do not like to tell unpleasant truths, so you never discover it, with surveys.

    3 There is always some one ready to poach your customers.

    4 Only your best friends tell you how badly you have screwed up.

    5 Probably only 5 % have update to Blunderbird 3, the rest are too busy with Christmas.

    THE 95 % IS THE COMING DISASTER

    I HAVE BEEN KIND AND WARNED YOU.

    Regards Bill3
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • I’m disgusted / disappointed / not recommending TB3 to anyone
    To: David Ascher CEO

    You obviously still don't get what we're all complaining about here.

    You should make the known-good TB2 available for download and remove the screwed up Thunderbird Vista. That way you can ask those who make extensions to make them to add TB3 looks or functionality for all 3 dozen people who might want them. If you haven't read the posts here, pretty much none of those millions you speak of seem to want TB3 looks or features. By doing it this way, not only do you have an email client that works, you have a better chance of the extensions working (one of the problems, if you hadn't noticed). This way you're also not asking anyone else to fix your mess.

    By marking this as solved/answered, you do nothing but make yourself part of the problem and discourage users further by showing them tech-support here is useless.

    In your first post you state you are hearing the problems.
    What we want to know is what, if anything is being done to address them (other than hoping someone fixes them for you with extensions)?

    Just so you see it again:
    Annoyances are not features!!!

    FIX THIS MESS, DON'T IGNORE IT!!!!!

    CB
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • As has been pointed out from the top, Thunderbird 2 is still available for people who want it:

    http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozil...

    Please realize that Thunderbird 3 is getting a lot of positive response as well as some negative ones. I think that just as we acknowledge that some of the changes in 3 aren't appreciated by some of our Thunderbird 2 users, it'd be nice if you could acknowledge that you don't speak for everyone.

    We are hearing the feedback, and are thinking about what changes we can make in subsequent versions to address the most common issues for upgraders.

    Beyond that, I'm not convinced that there's much desire for civil dialogue in this thread.
    • David,
      Making the old version available through a non-obvious site that isn't linked through the main page isn't a solution. If I hadn't read that here, I would have started advising my users (I support somewhere around 800 users) to go to a different client, because TB3 is simply unusable. I have issued a notice that no-one should install version 3, and that I have an installer for version two available for anyone who needs to reinstall.

      To add to the list of problems in this thread, the only person in our department who tried updating found herself unable to open text or html attachments. At a university where messages from the Chancellor's office go out as html attachments, that's a critical failing.

      Telling us that we can go download the old version at a non-obvious site doesn't solve the problem: it tells us that you don't consider our problem worth solving. All over the web I'm seeing complaints that TB3, while it has some features that will be great once they're working, is too buggy to use.

      Please accept public opinion. Admit that the release was botched, and replace the main website with one that offers version 2. Bring 3 back once it's working right. At the moment, a lot of us are unsure whether we should continue to trust the Thunderbird team with our data and our time. A sign that you're listening to public opinion and willing to admit mistakes would go a long way towards bringing us back to supporting you.
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • The text attachment bug (if it's the one I'm thinking of) has been identified and a fix is in progress, and should be in 3.0.1.

    I'm really sorry you had such a bad experience. As a bit of context, we did the best QA we could, including getting over 100,000 users of the betas and release candidates. I'm the first to admit that some bugs weren't found, or filed, or recognized as critical early enough, and I'm really, really sorry about it.

    I think our best course of action is two-pronged:

    1- to work as hard as we can to get a 3.0.1 release out that fixes as many of these bugs as possible, as soon as possible. You can choose to help us in that effort by filing good bug reports with clear steps to reproduce. We must rely on volunteers to assist us with the testing, so users such as yourself can be a critical part of the solution.

    2 - to examine whether we should make changes to the website to make finding Thunderbird 2 easier, as there are many reasons why users might want to find it, and I agree it's not that easy to find. It's a bit tricky to rapidly change a site that's translated by volunteers in so many languages, but we'll see what we can do.

    I hope that you'll test 3.0.1 and subsequent releases, and that at some point it'll be the right upgrade path for you and your users.
    • David,

      Thanks for the response -- it's nice to know someone over there is listening! To directly respond on both points:

      1) This is, of course, critical. Now you know where more of the bugs are, and getting them fixed is the priority. That's clear to me, and obviously to you as well.

      2) I'm puzzled by this. You HAD a perfectly good website that offered a download of version 2, just a week or so ago. I can't imagine that you've already wiped the archived page from when version 2 was current, so it should still be possible to put it back in place. Given the results people are getting with version 3, I would have assumed that this would take priority -- make sure that new users, people who don't have a reason already to stick with you, are getting the best possible version. Once it's back up, yes, work on adding something in that encourages people to try out version 3, but make sure there's a note that it's buggy and possibly unstable.

      I'll certainly be keeping an eye on the version 3 upgrades, but it'll be a while before I'm willing to risk having my users upgrade.

      Thanks again,
      Alex
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • I’m pretty much convinced I need a new mail app.
    Att: David Ascher, CEO

    Ref: My take on your posts

     There will likely be regular security updates to TB2 in the coming months, just fixing security bugs, and which will behave just like every other update you've seen in the last few years.

    You’d better plan on supporting it longer than that. Some of us won’t try TB3 again until we know the bugs are gone. Also some of the useless crap needs to be removed or disabled.

     Please realize that Thunderbird 3 is getting a lot of positive response as well as some negative ones.

    Actually, from what I see you have that backwards. It is getting some positive feedback and lots of negative. In fact, only 16 of the 18 messages marked as praise actually appear to be, while hundreds are marked as problems.

     TB2 users shouldn't have been automatically asked if they wanted to upgrade to TB3 -- that was a bug in the update system that affected about 1% of our users.

    If you do a manual “Check for Updates”, you get the install TB3 option. That’s how I got stuck with it. This needs to be disabled too.

     to examine whether we should make changes to the website to make finding Thunderbird 2 easier, as there are many reasons why users might want to find it

    You need to. You need to return the web site so TB 2.0.0.23 is the download option at the main icon. If you want to add a second icon for TB3, you should include a warning that many are still having serious issues with it and it may not work. Leaving TB3 on the main web site only adds to the number of people having problems and invites people new to TB to jump to the conclusion it always was this problematic garbage.

     I think that just as we acknowledge that some of the changes in 3 aren't appreciated by some of our Thunderbird 2 users

    Since annoyances are not features, you have that part absolutely right.

     it'd be nice if you could acknowledge that you don't speak for everyone.

    I willingly acknowledge I don’t speak for everyone, but from what I see (hundreds marked as problems) , quite a few of everyone are speaking

     I encourage people who make add-ons to "undo" some of the changes in TB3 to post links to them here, so that people who are unhappy with the changes can customize TB3 to be more like what they're used to.

    The stated function of extensions has been to add features for those who want them, like the annoying search or a space consuming toolbar in the message pane, not to disable features for those who don’t, like the annoying search or a space consuming toolbar in the message pane. They also should not be used to restore functions left out (or forgotten), like hyperlinks, columns, right click to check mail, etc. This causes a need for numerous extensions that only serve as yet another source of aggravation every time the program gets updated.

     I'd like to see at least one targeted at "restoring the TB2 way" for those people who liked it, but still want some of the benefits of TB3.

    I’ve tried it, I’ve seen no benefits in TB3, only annoyances made worse by serious bugs.

     When we feel that TB3 has had enough of the migration issues addressed, then we'll do a "prompted major update" where we'll let TB2 users know about the new version. We won't do that until we feel we've reached enough add-on compatibility, etc.

     That's why we haven't turned on the switch which offers TB3 by default to all TB2 users -- we want to make sure that a good number of the most popular add-ons have TB3-compatible versions first. We did have a bug in the service whereby some users may have been offered an update too early. We apologize for that!

    I consider these two posts to be the “Smoking Gun”. They indicate to me that you knew there were serious issues all along and still put this in place.

     Beyond that, I'm not convinced that there's much desire for civil dialogue in this thread.

    We’re not convinced there’s much desire to fix the problems and are pretty much over the need to feel civil about being stuck with this POS

     I think our best course of action is two-pronged:

    Yes: 1) Trash TB3 and forget it ever existed.
    And 2) Start over from TB2 and work on making a truly useful upgrade.

    Those are my opinions,
    CB
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • I’m amused by the over-reaction
    Hmm, I think most of this thread is silly. If the time for civil dialog is over then maybe the thread could be retitled "Headless Chickens"

    Personally I installed TB3 and found I didn't like it - for none of the reasons stated here but nonetheless legitimate ones.

    I simply reinstalled TB2. This took me less than four minutes. I moved my Data folder (before installing TB3 and then again before reinstalling TB2), and I dropped it into the "new" TB2 folder. Everything just worked.

    Maybe I should add that there are many reasons (including upgrade probs) to install the PortableApps versions. Then you can swap them in and out at will. This deals with upgrade-happy campers like me. And gives me an instant downgrade route any time I want.

    If you only want tried-and-true versions then right now you have no problem. As noted above you have to manually click Check for Upgrades to get TB2 to fetch TB3 for you - and if you are in the habit of doing that then IMHO you are getting what you deserve.

    I "wasted" about fifteen minutes of my life exploring the new features. The headless chicken problem is what exactly?

    And all this talk about "the directors" and "the CEO" just make me want to weep. We are all so powerless and "they" are doing all this to us, and we must make "them" realise how much we are hurting. We have wasted weeks of our lives and it is all "their" fault.. Is this really the issue?

    If you want to make a difference then stop bleating here and start joing in. Isn't that what open source is supposed to be about? I guess some people are born consumers, or alternatively some people have a hard time realising that TB is being developed in a playground where we can all go and play. (And no I am not in that playground, I just recognise that I could be if I wanted to be.)

    Or to state the reasons for this post slightly differently: I prefer TB2 to TB3 and have gone back to using it, but I have no issues whatsoever with Mozilla for developing TB3, nor offering it to me. Good for them I say.

    I am planning to file some reports about what I think is "wrong" with TB3 and I guess that somewhere around TB3.1 I will jump on it and love it :)
    • Hi Owen , and others

      CONSIDERATION FOR THE AVERAGE USER,

      is the critical aspect, and Christmas.

      They should be able to rely on Mozilla for trouble free programs.

      PS David Ascher a CEO !!!!!! Even the worst CEO I have worked with would not have committed the Blunderbird 3 Mosaster.

      Please no more of the personal attacks subterfuge, the truth is the truth.

      Regards Bill3.
    • The problem with your reasoning is that there is no average user, in the sense that I think you mean. There is you (who doesn't like TB3) and me (who doesn't like TB3) and others who also don't - and a lot of others who do.

      I strongly susepct that the "average user" is now using webmail. Certainly 95% of the staff and students at the university I work at use the webmail interface, and have GMail accounts. I also ur Eudora, sed GMail until the staff were banned from using it for work related purposes. I would much rather be using it now, since it is very fast, very simple and just right for "the average user". I am forced now to either use our inhouse webmail - which is frankly third rate - or a desktop app. Of the ones I have tried TB2 is the best, and what I am (still) using.

      The second problem with your arguument is that TB is not that important to Mozilla for whom Firefox is a MUCH more important project. Moreover Mozilla is working on a completely new mail/messaging program so TB will soon only be one of their messaging products.

      Thirdly TB is based on the Mozilla Gecko engine - and it is not the only mail program based on this, because that is how open source works. If you don't like TB you can use Postbox or Spicebird, oand their are probably more options based on the same engine too.

      Finally, I personally know some "average users" who are now using TB3 with no problems at all. In fact I would say that the problems with it are more likely to affect so-called power users.

      Hasppy Christmas!
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • This may seem basic but how do I get back to TB2 from this dreaded upgrade.
    Can I just re-install ver 2 over ver3 ?
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • My experience is that you can do exactly that,

    But I would advise copying your data folder first. This is where all your profile / settings / and so on are, so if you copy that and reinstall TB2 then you should be able to simply replace the default folder with yours.

    As I said above I now use the versions available from PortableApps.com because these make the whole process of upgrading/downgrading very simple. And they work fine on a laptop or a desktop computer - you do not need to install them on a USB stick!

    Cheers
    Owen
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • Thanks Owen,
    My sanity has now been restored with TB ver2

    alan
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • Owen,

    Thank you for saying what I've been thinking about the comments on this thread.

    I've been watching it for a week, and commented in agreement with the first post 6 days ago. Almost immediately, the thread deteriorated to little more than flaming Mozilla.

    For providing unwanted updates to a free product.

    I liked my screen layout better in TB2. The quickly updated Compact Headers regained 3 screen lines for me, but I still had 2 lines I wanted to get rid of (top toolbar and folder tabs).

    I just searched for and found fixes for those. The forums are great.

    I'm confident it'll get better. Just as it always has.

    Don
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • I’m sad
    Keep at it lads and lasses,

    It will take some effort to get through.

    I predict this will be the start of the end for Mozilla.

    Or will they come to their senses,

    V2 for the average person, and a new named V3 for the experts.

    Regards Bill3.
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • This conversation has gone on forever, but let me just make a few observations.

    1. I had the same problems with TB3. I found the "features" perplexing, and I could not get it to work.
    2. I switched back to TB2, and everything is fine.
    3. I didn't pay a penny for the package, and they are not trying to sell me anything.

    I am sure there are many who prefer 3 to 2, just as I (and others) prefer 2 to 3. But I am grateful to those who provided their time and talents to give me this system. And while I think programmers often get more enthusiastic about "improvements" then is warranted, they have done me little harm and much good, and I am grateful for their efforts. Even in their mistakes (if TB3 is a mistake) they deserve our gratitude.

    The complaints are no doubt valid; they are in fact my complaints. But I think that the complaints must be presented in a fundamental posture of gratitude. I have no contractual relation with Mozilla, as I do with, say Microsoft or Norton; they gave me a gift and asked nothing in return. So maybe we can just end this by saying to TB3, "Thanks, but no thanks," and let it go at that.
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • I’m still frustrated
    Since everybody is summarising their conclusions, I will jump on the Band-Wagon:-

    1) The interface, on TB3, is "different"! Initially confusing, but I can get used to that.

    2) I was unhappy that, upgrading to TB3, caused me to apparently lose all of my emails (thanks to the "Kaspersky" problem). It eventually got resolved but it turns out to be a "known-problem" that was NOT listed in the "Known-Problems"!! IMHO, this should NOT have been allowed to happen!

    3) I needed to undertake a simple search for an email, from a specific Sender. On TB2 this would take 1 second, on TB3 this took in excess of 5mins & locked up my PC at the same time. Many thanks to David Ascher (CEO), who has help me establish a "work-around". Apparently, this transpired to be another "known-problem" that was also NOT listed in the "Known-Problems"!! IMHO, again, this should NOT have been allowed to happen!

    4) I've seen lots of references to the on-going need to develop additional Add-ons/Extensions, just to get the basic functionality working. IMHO, basic functionality should be included within the program & Add-ons/Extensions should ONLY be needed for the "Frills" & the Preferences/Extras.

    5) I now have a "Tab" row, which I've been unable to establish what it is for or how to use it. I'm certain it must have some great uses - just wish I knew what they were! -:(

    6) I now have an Activity Manager that opens up a Pop-Up Windows, that is virtually blank. Again, I've been unable to establish what it is for or how to use it. Again, I'm certain it must have some great uses - just wish I knew what they were! -:(

    7) I now have a "Help-Contents (F1)" listed, but clicking on it does NOT take me to a Contents Listing - it just take me to the normal Web-Based "Ask-a-question" page. Irritating & confusing, but NOT a "Show-Stopper".

    As a summary I really do acknowledge the hard-work that has been done by the Programmers, but I just think that the Public-Release was a bit premature!

    Regards & Seasons greetings to everyone!
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • I’m happy now.
    1
    Solutions for items 2, 3, and 5 in Bill3's list:

    The biggest issue for me was the new Headers size - I went from one line to four. Compact Headers allowed me to get it down to two.
    The people who wrote that add-on (Thank you!) updated it last week, and the updated version gets me back to a single line.

    I wanted to get rid of the Tab/folders bar, and found a question about it in the forums. "Guest" answered the question:
    In Advanced Settings / Config Editor, set mail.tabs.autoHide to true, which will hide the tab bar if there's only one tab showing -- then as long as you don't create a tab, you won't have a tab bar.

    I also wanted to get rid of what I had turned into an empty toolbar. I think I found it in the forums, but I'm not sure:
    View -> Toolbars -> de-select Mail Toolbar

    I'm feeling waymore better about TB3 after finding fixes to issues I had. Because of the upgrade issues, I found ways to make my interface better than with TB2 (which was fine).

    About the new Search:

    I like the new Search format. On my system (slow core duo, WinXP, sent emails saved back to Y2K), it takes about five seconds to find a word in "body".
    I'd be really annoyed if it took five minutes and locked up my system. I hope Mozilla can get that problem fixed for those who have it.

    Hope this helps!
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • Hi! I'm the IT director at a company with a network of 150 workstations - all running TB2 - the users view computers like a hammer - just a tool to get things done.

    After upgrading my own station to Thunderbird 3 - I immediately liked it. Faster, I liked the tabs, and pretty much everything about it - but I suspected it wouldn't be popular with everyone else in the company.

    I've upgraded 5 stations to Thunderbird 3 -- for the average business user, it is not worth it. While the layout with the tabs may enable better organization - it doesn't not reduce the average amount of navigational clicks - and explaining 100+ people how to get organized is not worth my time/effort. It certainly does not save them time/money to learn how to use tabs. Remember it's like a hammer - once they've figured out how to use it - and become proficient - they will only learn new things if there's a SIGNIFICANT advantage in doing so.

    Making the tabbed system disabled by default - and having a pop-up saying "Hey, Welcome to TB3! Now with tabs!" would have been perfect. The disinterested user would have dismissed it, and the interested user would have read further. Problems avoided.

    The add-on issues are to be expected.

    Other negative points seem minor to me. (I've only encountered faster searches.)

    Overall - if the tabbed system could be disabled TB3 would have been a rather solid release.

    This makes me wonder if Mozilla cares more about the 'computer savvy' than the 'business/average user' markets, or if they care at all which markets use their products, because they've screwed-up big time with the average/business users.

    I've read on numerous pages to "...just download TB2 - it's available here...." as a solution to/getting rid of the tabbed system. That is ludicrous.

    (Sorry for any bad English, it's not my mother tonge.)
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • I’m sad
    Same here.

    It's just insane to add an addon to remove some unnecessary lines in headers.

    Also if autohide tab exists in config, why is there no checkbox somewhere to modify this setting ? Why isn't it set to true by default ?

    nothing to add to what was already said

    back to TB2 :-(
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • I had converted from TB2 to TB3 when I installed TB on a new computer. I have now rolled back to TB2. My problems with TB3 include:

    o Cannot create new filters that work.

    o Severe problems with folder pane not being repainted properly.

    o Back and Forward functions do not work. They seem to access a server, even though I am using POP3 for all accounts that I actually receive mail from.

    o Virtually none of my extensions work yet on TB3 and some I consider critical to TB use.

    Given all the functional problems, I have not paid that much attention to the new layout, tabs, etc.

    Overall, I'd rate this version of TB3 as "early beta" quality,
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • I’m dumbfounded
    Re: Link to downgrade:

    Only an experienced UNIX or LINUX user could figure out how to navigate the hierarchy at that link David provided.

    Mac:
    http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozil...

    Windows:
    http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozil...

    I find it mind-boggling that those who most wish to downgrade are also mostly those who probably could not navigate easily from http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozil... to either of the above. I think perhaps this is another symptom of the same communications chasm that has troubled previous posters.

    And what the heck is an ".asc" ?
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • This reply was removed.
    see the change log
  • I have lost my calender after upgrading is there a way to restore it?
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated

  • How do I roll back to the previous version that will work, I am in real trouble.
  • (some HTML allowed)
    How does this make you feel?
    Add Image
    I'm

    e.g. kidding, amused, unsure, silly indifferent, undecided, unconcerned happy, confident, thankful, excited sad, anxious, confused, frustrated