Is image getting a fair amount of image duels?



See above.
https://www.pixoto.com/images-photogr...
Time: 23:00 Amsterdam time

From left to right
1st row
107 image duels, day 1st
67 image duels, day 3rd
105 image duels, day 2nd
101 image duels, day 4th
2nd row
94 image duels, day 7th
101 image duels, day 5th
98 image duels, day 10th
99 image duels, day 9th
3rd row
98 image duels, day 6th
98 image duels, day 8th
91 image duels, day 10%
86 image duels, day 20%

I followed the progress of my picture. Can you tell me why it received substantial less votes (67) where the average is aboutn 100 (soo 30% less image duels)?
This was the situation all day. And at the time when the badges were given situation was even worse.
NB. want to be clear that it's not about the rank!! it's about a fair number of image duels!!
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  • Ad, I don't work for Pixoto, but I can tell you how it seems to work with my images. If an image is winning mostly all of its duels, it gets more duels. When it hits a patch of losing a few duels in a row, things slow down substantially. It will eventually get more duels, but more slowly, unless it hits a patch of several wins in a row. The images with the highest scores are dueling against images with much higher scores. If they win, they keep getting duels faster to see where they will rise to. If the image does not seem like it will end near the top, the duels slow down even if you are on the pro level. They will eventually get the 100 duels, but it may take a few days.
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  • Hi SweetNana55, thanks for your explanation.
    What you describe is more or less the same that I've experienced for several years now, although Pixoto never was really transparant about how the voting works (resulting in a lot of confusion and a lot of questions in the community).
    However this is not just one like that.
    My picture won a lot of the image duels and that's why it reached the high score and 3rd place despite the low number of image duels.
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  • Jasenka (Official Rep) July 29, 2018 14:53
    HI Ad, did you boost your image? Or just let is gain duels without boosting it? And if you did, for how much duels did you boost it?
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  • I've considered that Jasenka. But from experience I know that when boosting e.g. 10 more duels, it's very rare that you get the image duels all within a limited amount of time. If you boost during the day you may be happy if the image receives 5 or 8 out of the 10. So it might explain part of the difference, but definitely not huge diffence that's there now.
    For Scott I've already added the suggestion to become (as Pixoto) fully transparant on the details of the voting system. These days transparancy is key for a lot of sectors, so I don't see why Pixoto keeps the real details of the voting system secret.
    But thanks anyway.
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    • Thanks Jasenka. I've thought about that one as well as I could imagine that that's the case. But I have my doubts. As you mention yourself highest peak votes are around the time awards are assigned. Pixoto also took care of timezone differences, that could lead to larges differences in submission times, by assigning awards a day later. As Pixoto claims a fair voting system: that would mean, even taking into account the input of Sweetnana55 above, somehow this results in a kind of fair/equal level of duels for pictures in the top 10 or top 20, I would say.

      So please ask Scot (or others) for a transparent description of how the voting system works to be placed on the site. Perhaps that helps/clarifies but it will for sure save you a lot of time given the many questions/remarks regarding this subject in general.
    • In addition, fyi: receiving more image duels when you reach high scores is still working as usual; I do see my picture and another picture with a low number of duels but high score catching more duels.
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  • Hi Jasenka,
    the problem occurred again today.
    I'm not gonna invest time again in writing down all scores, as currents scores are changed since daily awards were issued.
    But some of the flower pictures for november 18th had again received a very low number of duels, when awards where issued. So no level playing field situation, because other images received much more duels. I followed one of my own pictures and it hardly received any duels during the day, despite the winners.
    FYI: at least 2 other pictures received a high number of winners (something like 15 of 5 or something as well so no cause for pausing etc.) but could, like mine, never win due to lack of duels in comparison to other images (20-30% less duels)
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  • I suggest adding # of wins and # of losses and score to your analysis.
    • I did that Scott, as I know that's a factor playing a rol. But the ranking basically give that information indirect as well.
      That's why I basically added my last remark.
      Some of the pictures (and not only mine) i was talking about had ratios of 15 wins vs 5 losses or better. So high number of wins didn't result in higher number of duels.

      FYI, I reported it twice now, but have seen it happening at least 4 or 5 times last few months.
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  • Images are allocated duels based on an internal skill level and number of "quality" duels received.
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  • Scott, Jasenka, 
    The problem occurred again. I have a clear case of this using my own images of yesterday (see picture, flower pictures).
    The flowerpicture I added as 1st one, received again 25%-30% less image duels (only 34 duels now, but when POD badges were issued even less) despite the high %-age of winners in it's early series of duels. This is really contra the description of how image duels should work (as described by Pixoto).
    At the same time the picture of the Lily (3rd flower posted; 50 duels now) received a high number of duels but was posted later and didn't have the high number of winners initially.
    This is a clear case I think and should allow to analyse the problem.

    Not receiving fair amounts of image duels, will stop even more people participating...
    (as per Amsterdam time around 22:20)
    • view 7 more comments
    • Thanks a lot Jasenka
    • Jasenka. Is Scott unavailable? I don't see any reaction and I guess he's still the only one doing anything like this. The longer it takes before he starts analyses the harder it will be to find the root cause...
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  • I've got an image that's been on Pixoto for over 7 months and has received a grand total of 11 image duels.

    https://www.pixoto.com/images-photogr...

    Another that's been on the site for OVER 2 YEARS that's gotten 19 image duels.

    https://www.pixoto.com/images-photogr...

    My whole stack of photos have some that have received over 150 duels, and other photos submitted on the same day in the same category have less that 40 duels.

    I've given up trying to figure out how or why an image takes off, and have resigned myself to being pleasantly surprised when one does.
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    • That seems like a low number of votes for the algorithm to be able to make a determination as to what's a good photo or not. Also, a photo getting paused in it's first day when votes are needed to get those coveted daily top-10 awards seems like nothing more than a way to: A) Reward people who sit and monitor their photos hourly and are able to B) spend credits to keep boosting or un-pausing their images.

      And needing to resubmit in order to get more votes or until I get a result that I'm happy with seems to go against every single reason that a site like this exists. Not to mention will only bog down the system more than it already appears to be.
    • No idea if this thread is even a priority any more, but the two images I posted on July 23rd and got paused during the 1st day voting are still not receiving duels. I unpaused them after posting about them and they still sit with 3 boost duels remaining, never to duel again.

      There's another photo in the same category uploaded on the same day that's sitting at 18W / 27L and isn't paused. Either it never got paused, or the duel boost is working for them.
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  • 1
    Thanks for the response.

    Although, I'm not quite sure how an image that's got 5 wins and 6 losses in it's 11 duels is considered a low quality image that should be paused and "weeded out" as you put it. That's barely enough sample size to know what the community thinks. It's barely enough duels to counteract the people not thoughtfully voting but simply "farming" for credits by quick clicking every left side image so they can get enough to submit their own photos.

    Granted, it seems as though things are going through a change and hopefully it will be for the good of the community. Fingers are crossed.
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  • Hi Scott

    It's not clear for me anymore where/how this issue is followed up.
    Posted a question here https://www.pixoto.com/v3/updates/4824011227529216, given you pointed out that you look there, but don't know if that's the right place at I don't see a response there.
    The bug exists, that became obivious.
    But please me know whether there will be a follow up or not. Will it be analysed/investigated as Jasenka indicated; else I might want to remove/resubmit one of the involved images.
    thx
    Ad
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  • So to the answer the question "Is image getting a fair amount of image duels?"

    I will say is, yes.

    An image score stabilizes quickly and is based upon the images it competes against.  The dueling algorithm is complicated, but successful and correct. An image gets duels according to how it performs and based as well on the images it performs against.    It is also takes into account the quality of the person doing the voting aka the judge as well as the quality of the image it is dueling against. Images receive a scaled number of duels which is based on how they perform in the system.

    A judge that votes well, has a higher impact on change due to a vote.  A judge that cheats has no impact on the movement of the image.  Similar scoring images have less impact on each other.

    It is not reasonable to expect the images to stay in the same order AFTER a particular date because they duel against NEW images.  Your examples are time sensitive.  Peoples opinions change, cameras change, people seeing the same image over and over again prefer fresh content, new images are introduced and the images are now ranked *RELATIVE to the NEW IMAGES* that did not exist at the time they were uploaded.

    I would not be concerned how your image scores again such a small subset images as much as I would be concerned with a much larger subset.

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    • Thank you for responding Scott.

      This topic could go on and on - I will however let matters rest and again thank you for your response.
    • Hi Scott

      With regards to you answer to the main questions of this topc ("Is image getting a fair amount of image duels?"), I completely don't understand your conclusion.
      Based on the same arguments you gave (I recognize the explanations from earlier threads & pixoto descriptions), I would say exactly the opposite.

      So, based on your own arguments, I would say the answer is No!

      You say: 
      "An image score stabilizes quickly and is based upon the images it competes against.  The dueling algorithm is complicated, but successful and correct. An image gets duels according to how it performs and based as well on the images it performs against. It is also takes into account the quality of the person doing the voting aka the judge as well as the quality of the image it is dueling against. Images receive a scaled number of duels which is based on how they perform in the system."
      My reaction:
      "If this is the case: the example picture performed very well from the start. Number of active participants in Pixoto is not that high these days, so on average there is not much difference in quality of judges for different duels"

      You say:
      "A judge that votes well, has a higher impact on change due to a vote.  A judge that cheats has no impact on the movement of the image.  Similar scoring images have less impact on each other."
      My reaction:
      "Number of active participants in Pixoto is not that high these days, so on average there is not much difference in quality of judges for different duels. Besides that, I don't know how you mark judges as 'cheaters', but it's hard to believe that voters that gave the example picture a 'win' were cheating as that's would not in their benifit at all. FYI: I was not voting at all'.

      You say:
      "It is not reasonable to expect the images to stay in the same order AFTER a particular date because they duel against NEW images.  Your examples are time sensitive.  Peoples opinions change, cameras change, people seeing the same image over and over again prefer fresh content, new images are introduced and the images are now ranked *RELATIVE to the NEW IMAGES* that did not exist at the time they were uploaded."
      My reaction:
      "You fully right. But this is not impacting the fact that a picture doesn't receive duels anymore after it got a series of winners. Actually it should lead to more duels.
      And by the way I even indicated this up front. As I know this happens I strongly advised to do analysis ASAP after the report since situation changes continuously."


      You say:
      "I would not be concerned how your image scores again such a small subset images as much as I would be concerned with a much larger subset."
      My Reaction:
      "Exactly! But than the duel algorithm should work according to what you describe instead of doing the opposite sometimes"

      Ad

      ps. Again you say something like "The dueling algorithm is complicated, but successful and correct." and at the same time it's unclear to the members. As strongly suggested before, please start also being transparant about this duelling algorithm by describing it in detail on the Pixoto site.
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