QWin/QMac 2017: Quicken Inc should reverse its decision to change to a subscription that makes the user's data read-only if they stop paying

  • 2
  • 410
  • Idea
  • Updated 3 days ago
  • Under Consideration
  • (Edited)
Quicken Inc has put out the Quicken 2017 Canadian version "testing" a new subscription business model.  The subscription is for one year and if the user doesn't pay to extend the subscription at the end of the year their data files become READ-ONLY.

They can't even add any new transactions manually.

And there is no way to "buy" Quicken using the old business model.

If this is left unchallenged they will most likely use this model for the US version next year.

People should vote on this "idea" if they are against Quicken Inc using this business model.
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 299,040 Points 100k badge 2x thumb

Posted 3 months ago

  • 2
  • 410
Photo of David Argust

David Argust

  • 232 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
I have run Quicken on Windows for many years.  This year I purchased Quicken for MAC 2016.  Because the function of Quicken for MAC is still very limited I am currently running both Windows and MAC versions.   If you do switch to a subscription model I would like to suggest that at least until the the MAC version is on par with the Windows version you offer a single subscription that includes both the MAC and Windows version.  I prefer to use the MAC version, but currently there are just too many things that I need that are not there yet.   Unfortunately the added functions although improving are still coming very slowly.

Even the Microsoft subscription that you have been comparing yourself to allow for use on both MAC and PC with a single subscription.
Photo of smayer97

smayer97, SuperUser

  • 159,676 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
Don't forget some of the other issues related to this. See the Summary of all issues discussed in this thread at the that link.

(If you find this reply helpful, please be sure to click "Like", so others will know, thanks.)
Photo of organone

organone

  • 294 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
Here is the nightmare scenario...Quicken goes out of business, and you cannot change your data. I would NEVER sign up with a company that requires a subscription for me to manually change my financial data. Too much risk. I would rather stay with Quicken Canada 2014.
Photo of Howard Spindel

Howard Spindel

  • 806 Points 500 badge 2x thumb
I've refused to update any software that moves to a subscription model.  I sincerely hope that Quicken does not require the same treatment.
Photo of mvwabc

mvwabc

  • 240 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
I found this discussion while trying to find out why I could not download my transactions today - the "Uh Oh"   message when trying to log into Intuit account.  I buy software for my computer, so I can control the data.  Now quicken is trying to tie me to the internet.  I am ok for downloads, but I don't want Quicken messing with the data.

I do not want a subscription model.  While I have been using Quicken for about 25 years, I will find an alternative if Quicken decides on the subscription model without an alternative I can pay an upfront license fee  for.
Photo of Clyde

Clyde

  • 210 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
WOW what a mistake I made in purchasing this Quicken 2017, if they follow through with all of this log in requirements and limited or no manual entries there will not be a Quicken on any of my computers.  And at the mercy of this company's servers to be up and running like right now when I try to install this Quicken 2017 and get a Uh-oh, something went wrong BS and not able to do anything with MY, YES MY financials,  I've used Quicken for 15years and never have I NOT been able to use until TODAY, THIS IS BS
Photo of Wayne Meredith

Wayne Meredith

  • 340 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
I have been using Quicken for MANY years and I purchase the updated version every year.  I will go on record as saying that if they go to a subscription model in the USA - I will find an alternative program and will no longer purchase Quicken, Turbo Tax or any associated software package.
It's a shame but when I PURCHASE software I fully intend to be able to USE it without having to SUBSCRIBE.  I realize that by purchasing the updated version every year for so many years I have paid more than if I subscribed, but I PREFER to control my own destiny and NOT have to log into a WEB BASED service to manage my own data. 
It's a shame
Photo of gmalis1

gmalis1, SuperUser

  • 141,358 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
Turbo Tax is owned by Intuit.

Quicken was sold by Intuit last year and is now owned by the investment capital group HIG.  

Logging into the web based service is only to check who you are when Quicken links to your downloaded accounts, bills, credit score, etc.  Your data remains on your desktop/laptop.  It is added security for your financial institutions.  

Even if you don't download anything with Quicken, it is used to verify updates in the software.  All versions since 2015 have used the Intuit/Quicken ID for verification purposes. 
Photo of Jim (JR) Harris

Jim (JR) Harris

  • 2,504 Points 2k badge 2x thumb
I'm on 2015, and I sure wish I could migrate back to 2014.  The "need to be connected" Intuit/Quicken ID stuff drives me nuts!
Photo of mke

mke

  • 190 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
I had been thinking of getting a subscription, not because I agree with this new model but because I have over 25 years of data that I don't want to convert. That was until today when I got this message from one of my sons: "Q17 is a mess right now. I hope to have some time tomorrow night to evaluate whether I need to get the refund. I’m missing transactions, the accounts aren’t updating properly, my saved reports aren’t working etc. etc. basically nothing is working as it should... very annoyed with it." Whether or not it is a subscription, it does not matter if the program no longer does what it is supposed to.
Photo of Al R

Al R

  • 252 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
Quicken Kathryn and Eric Dunn, for that matter,
I have been a loyal user of Quicken for many years and have been very pleased with the way it has progressed over time -- THAT IS TO SAY UNTIL NOW!!

While the idea of going fully on-line with a subscription service, like is being tested in Canada, MAY make some business sense, from this humble and loyal user's perspective, IT IS SHEER LUNACY!

The idea of putting everything on line is an anathema to my my common sense for several critical reasons. First and foremost, no matter how secure think you have your site, it will eventually be hacked; accordingly,, there is much more information I store locally than goes up to the Cloud AND I WILL NOT TOLERATE IT GOING UP THERE. Second,instead of improving Quicken, like you have been doing over the years, you are taking a big step backwards. Look at what happened yesterday; for several hours, many of us could not update/sync with the cloud information. Though you may think you have things well covered, the old expression of "ca-ca occurs" applies -- and I for one, can't afford to let that happen. Though the trend is to everything through the cloud, remember nothing is perfect.

If this inane idea becomes a reality, you will drive this faithful Quicken user away.

Why don't you spend the time and make it so that your home screen with monthly bills can be visible to Quicken Mobile.

PLEASE KILL THIS IDEA!!!
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 297,540 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
@Al R "While the idea of going fully on-line with a subscription service"

That is not what is happening.

If you look at the current Quicken US model you should realize that you have a desktop program with 3 years "subscription" to download transactions.

The new subscription model introduced for Quicken 2017 Canadian, is 1 year of downloading of transactions.  Renewing keeps you current version wise and downloading transactions (and other online services) wise.

Where your data is stored has not changed.  In fact I don't even think a "cloud based" Quicken is possible.

The biggest gripe though is by far what happens in the new subscription model if you do not keep the subscription up to date.

If your subscription expires, you have access to your data, but you can't add any new transactions, even manually.
Photo of Wayne Meredith

Wayne Meredith

  • 340 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
Thanks for the explanation Quicken, Now I am certain that I need to find an alternative solution.  I don't recall seeing a disclaimer stating that the software was a 3 year subscription when I purchased it.  When changing your business model this information should have been PROMINENTLY displayed on the download screen or packaging.  I will need to revisit this fact to se if in fact it was displayed on the outside of the package.  I believe I would have noticed it.  To charge the FULL price as what users have paid in the past for software that is only valid for 3 years seems to be a little shady to me. 
Say goodbye to a very loyal LONG time user - Pity must have been a poorly planned management change at Intuit - SOOOO SAAAAD :(
PS   By the way - I don't see anywhere on the WEB or Download page that this is a limited 3 year subscription.  Now I'm beginning to feel like I was RIPPED OFF by QUICKEN.
(Edited)
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 297,540 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
For the current "3 years" model it isn't called a "subscription" (a rose by any other name), but it is clearly marked on the package that the online services will end after 3 years.  But I do agree they do not clearly show this information on the web site.

But note the "3 year downloading" isn't new, it has been this way for at least 15 years.  It costs a lot of money to maintain the online services.  It makes perfect sense they can't give them away forever.

You can use the software for as long as it works on Windows (old "3 year" model), you just can't use the online services forever.

Also Intuit doesn't own Quicken any more:
https://getsatisfaction.com/quickencommunity/topics/an-update-from-our-ceo-eric-dunn
Photo of gmalis1

gmalis1, SuperUser

  • 141,358 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
The three year end of life for downloads is nothing new in Quicken.  I can't even remember how long this has been the standard for Quicken, but it's been a very, very long time.

Do you really think Quicken should support downloading transactions and price quotes for, say, Quicken 2010?  Downloading methods and security measures have changed over the years...along with support.  Quicken is unable to support all those older products, and rightfully so.

However, the current business model allows for users to still manually enter any and all transactions and investment price quotes REGARDLESS of the age of the product.

The "upcoming new" business model will put all subscribers on the SAME Quicken product (presumably renamed just "Quicken" without the year moniker).  

The two major sticking points are:

1 When your subscription lapses, you will be prevented from manually entering any transactions or investment price quotes, thus making the product VIEW only and virtually unusable.

2 Subscription pricing.  Since your financial data will be "held hostage" to a required subscription, Quicken Inc can charge whatever they feel like.

And now as we've all seen, having a valid Quicken ID is required and any outage of services will result in Quicken being inoperable.

And the final straw might be Quicken Inc calling it quits...and your Quicken software becoming totally useless because EVERYONE'S Quicken ID will thus be invalid.  
Photo of splasher

splasher, SuperUser

  • 532,254 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
@Wayne Meredith

" I don't recall seeing a disclaimer stating that the software was a 3 year subscription when I purchased it. "

You might not have seen it when you purchased it, but you did see it when you read the End User License Agreement AND agreed to it when you installed the software.

Oh wait, you probably didn't read it, did you?  You just checked the box so that you could start using Quicken and ignored the EULA like every other user that comes into this forum 3 years later and complains about the discontinuation of online services policy.
 
Photo of mistertheplague

mistertheplague

  • 3,360 Points 3k badge 2x thumb
@QPW:
In fact I don't even think a "cloud based" Quicken is possible.
That's interesting. Why not?
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 297,540 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
@QPW:
In fact I don't even think a "cloud based" Quicken is possible.
That's interesting. Why not?
I can think of three approaches to make Quicken "cloud based".

One is you leave the desktop GUI in place and put in some kind of client to server connection, and have the data on the server.  But there are two big problems with this idea.  One is that I'm sure that a lot of Quicken code doesn't have the database really cleanly separated and as such just trying to basically replace it with something that is instead making calls to a remote system would be extremely hard.  The second problem would most likely be performance.  Networks, especially the average Internet connection have both latency and overall speed programs especially when you are comparing the performance to an SSD.

The other problem with this is "what do you gain"?  Quicken Inc would have to invest in always available, high performance servers just so that the data can be on a server, but the person has to still use the desktop version of Quicken.  There is very little to gain here, and it would take a great amount of money, time, and angry customers (bugs and such).

Another is that you rewrite Quicken code to run on mobile devices and such.  That is a total rewrite that basically doesn't leverage anything they already have in the desktop code.  You couldn't "port" the code there is just too many things different about the mobile and desktop environments.  Not to mention that the code that runs on iOS doesn't run on Android, and you have the problem of displays that are of all different sizes, so the GUI would have to totally be redone.  And then there is also the question of will all the user's devices actually be powerful enough to run something like this?

The last approach they already tried and failed at in a beta (like I told them they would).  And that is just run Quicken desktop on a server in a virtual machine, and then use a remote access program.  When then tried this beta and said that they were going to have Quicken running remotely people assumed that they meant the second one above where the "client/GUI" would be geared for mobile, touch, ...  And of course it wasn't.  It was the same old desktop Quicken with the same limitations like one user at a time, a GUI meant for a desktop not mobile, ...
Photo of mistertheplague

mistertheplague

  • 3,360 Points 3k badge 2x thumb
@QPW: I assume Quicken Inc.'s interest in developing the virtual machine/server beta was to simplify support, e.g., by eliminating variables caused by users' different hardware/software, etc. Is that right?

Is a completely web-based model of Quicken, on the order of Mint or Personal Capital, feasible? 
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 297,540 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
@mistertheplague actually the idea to use a virtual machine/server was suggested by a customer on this forum.  That was suggested in response to people that were asking for a completely mobile/web model of Quicken.  Of course that request embodies several things, only one being that they can use it from any place.
When they announced the beta they never pointed out that the it would still have the limitations of one user at a time, and that the GUI wouldn't be customized for all the different devices one might use it on.

"Is a completely web-based model of Quicken, on the order of Mint or Personal Capital, feasible? "

In my opinion, No.  Look at it this way, if it was "easy" to do why don't Mint and Personal Capital already have all the features that Quicken has?
Just as when they rewrote Quicken Mac from scratch the features don't just pop into existence.  It takes a long time to develop it.  What's more the GUI on web pages is quite different than on a Desktop application.  There are some features that don't even exist, even though that gap is a lot smaller than it use to be.

But the most important thing to grasp is that having Quicken desktop gives Quicken Inc no real advantages over Mint or Personal Capital in developing a web based application.  You can't transfer the code from the desktop to the web based application without at total rewrite.  And in that sense Quicken Inc would be just starting out, when Mint and Personal Capital will have already been developing their applications for years.  So they are in fact at a disadvantage in this area.
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 297,540 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
Oh BTW on that remote desktop beta.  What they did is just contract with vendor of that kind of service.  The service would have even handled the service calls relating to the remote access.  So the overhead for Quicken Inc would have been extremely minimum.  They would have just gone on turning out and selling Quicken as usual, and just making a copy available for hosting on the server.  So it wasn't to "reduce" current workload as much as it was to provide a requested service with very little overhead.
Photo of Wayne Meredith

Wayne Meredith

  • 340 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
Again - my problem is NOT BEING ABLE TO USE THE PROGRAM or add transactions AFTER the subscription period ends.  In one response Quicken states...

"If your subscription expires, you have access to your data, but you can't add any new transactions, even manually." 

That I cannot enter any transactions EVEN MANUALLY.  In a following response it states that after 3 years I can continue to use the software...

"You can use the software for as long as it works on Windows (old "3 year" model), you just can't use the online services forever."

To me using the software includes the ability to enter transactions MANUALLY.  This second response contradicts the previous response...

Again my concern is - If I PURCHASE software, I should be able to use it indefinitely as long as I can keep it working on a supported version of windows. OK the downloads may not be available, but I should be able to manually enter transactions and use the software offline indefinitely. 

The packaging states "Credit score report and monitoring alerts (Quicken for Windows) and data download from participating financial institutions or other parties  are available until 4/2020; customer phone support, online features and services vary, require Internet access and/or may be subject to change, application approval, fees, additional terms and conditions.  15,000+ participating financial institutions as of 10/1/2016."

This DOES NOT state that I cannot enter new transactions after the subscription period ends.

I guess it has been a moot point for the several years (beginning early 90's) I have been a user since I keep the software current,  however the thing that frustrates me is that if I opt NOT to upgrade that I will be unable to use the program which I PURCHASED rather than SUBSCRIBED to, manually other than to look at OLD data.
You may want to rethink locking up against MANUAL transactions following the subscription period.
Photo of NotACPA

NotACPA, SuperUser

  • 319,816 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
The first thing that you need to understand is that you are NOT purchasing Quicken. 

You're purchasing a license to run Quicken, subject to the End User License Agreement ... which you agreed to when you installed Quicken.

It's the EULA that's being changed to a subscription model, and the "no data entry" will be in the new EULA if this goes forward.
Photo of Bylo Selhi

Bylo Selhi

  • 5,006 Points 5k badge 2x thumb
It's the EULA that's being changed to a subscription model, and the "no data entry" will be in the new EULA if this goes forward.
No! 

It's the software that's been(*) changed to an annual subscription model. Hopefully the EULA will also be revised to reflect the change to the software. (I say "will also be revised" because so far the Quicken 2017 End User Software License Agreement (Canada) is remarkably silent on this point. Ooops!)

Likewise it's the software that been changed to "no data entry" when the subscription lapses. Likewise, hopefully the EULA will also be revised to reflect the change to that software.

(*) In Canada "been." In the USofA "being." And the latter is still a definite maybe.
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 297,540 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
@Wayne Meredith the reason I kept stating "3 years" in that reply is because you need to separate what has already happened in Quicken 2017 Canadian, and what exists in Quicken 2017 US (and all other versions of Quicken.

The old model the "3 year one", when you hit the 3 year mark you can no longer download transactions or use the other online services without upgrading.
You can manually enter new transactions.

The new 1 year subscription model introduced for Quicken 2017 Canadian states that if the subscription lapses, Quicken will go into a "reduced functionality mode".
And with that you won't be able to enter new transactions manually.

Since this hasn't yet happened in the US versions, why should the people using the US version care?  Because was stated that this is the "future", and Quicken 2017 Canadian was just the first version to get it.
Photo of gmalis1

gmalis1, SuperUser

  • 141,358 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
I'm really just about THIS <<>> close to calling it quits with Quicken.

I'm sick and tired of their crap software continuing with bugs that exist from version to version, the crap features that work one day and then stop (Mobile Sync and Online Bills) requiring deleting my cloud data or using a new Quicken ID.  Now, I can't even delete my Cloud account without having to call Quicken support.  Really?  You've taken away that capability because you just can't get the Quicken ID right?  

I'm tired of all the workarounds I have to use to get Quicken to work the way most of us use it.

Unless there is some remarkably bargain subscription price Quicken will be offering FOREVER, I'm moving on to Mint and MintToReport which I've been using since January 1 and works for me very well without all the aggravation.  

Needless to say, I'm fed up with this lousy product. 
Photo of gmalis1

gmalis1, SuperUser

  • 141,358 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
I'm really just about THIS <<>> close to calling it quits with Quicken.

I'm sick and tired of their crap software continuing with bugs that exist from version to version, the crap features that work one day and then stop (Mobile Sync and Online Bills) requiring deleting my cloud data or using a new Quicken ID.  Now, I can't even delete my Cloud account without having to call Quicken support.  Really?  You've taken away that capability because you just can't get the Quicken ID right?  

I'm tired of all the workarounds I have to use to get Quicken to work the way most of us use it.

Unless there is some remarkably bargain subscription price Quicken will be offering FOREVER, I'm moving on to Mint and MintToReport which I've been using since January 1 and works for me very well without all the aggravation.  

Needless to say, I'm fed up with this lousy product. 
Photo of mistertheplague

mistertheplague

  • 3,650 Points 3k badge 2x thumb
@QPW:
Look at it this way, if it was "easy" to do why don't Mint and Personal Capital already have all the features that Quicken has?
I take your point about having to rebuild Quicken from the ground up. I was never clear on whether the server beta failed because users thought it sucked or because users were freaked out about having their financial data "in the cloud," or both. That they got something different than what they were promised is interesting historical information to have. 

So, aside from how difficult they'd be to build, I can imagine Mint not having Quicken-like features because there isn't sufficient (or any) demand for them from Mint's user base. I was reasonably active on the old Mint GetSat forum before Intuit unplugged it, and I don't recall very many Mint users requesting Quicken "niche" features. Mostly, Mint users requested features relating to Mint's core budgeting and dashboard functionality. Hell, Intuit even refused to implement most of those features.

The only biggie Intuit added in response to user requests was (ironically) being able to manually add transactions. The other "features" added to Mint, at least since Intuit acquired it, have been user-return services like Bill Pay or the FI-sponsored "Loan Center" clearinghouse. 

Personal Capital is a more complicated case, because they're not a software company. They're an RIA that hired some of the brightest fintech people in Silicon Valley. They built this amazing web-based PFM that was obviously intended, at least initially, to vector high-net worth potential clients into their core business of hybrid advising. These are folks who, like me, are definitely interested in -- and who have requested -- Quickeny niche features. 

Problem for PC is, we've also requested budgeting features so we can dump Mint (which has crappy investments capabilities) and only have to look at one app on our phones. 

Bigger problem for PC is, unlike Mint, they don't make any money off of their app (which is why they're even less responsive to user requests than Mint, and why the user forum, while not dead, is like a graveyard). 

Biggest problem for PC is, most of us are never going to pay them 87 basis points to manage our assetsThat's what we use their glorious app for! We're a logistical nightmare for their business model: high-net worth, DIY, and cheap. And if we don't pay them to do the thing it is that they're in business to do ...

This is why I fear for PC's future. They're not positioned to become a highest-bidder ad board the way Mint (and even Quicken) is. They have to be agnostic about brokerages in order to preserve their credibility as an RIA.

Interestingly, what they've done is to turn the app into an advertisement for themselves. When you use the Retirement Planner, e.g., you get a result, and the message: "How Can I Improve This?" 

You know the answer. "Schedule a Call!"
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 299,040 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
"I was never clear on whether the server beta failed because users thought it sucked or because users were freaked out about having their financial data "in the cloud,""

The whole point of that beta was to have the data in the "cloud".  As in access to the data no matter where they were.  So the people that signed up for that beta couldn't have complained about it for that reason.  That is one beta I never signed up for, so I don't know the details, but it isn't hard to guess why it was a failure.
Note that Quicken "remote desktop" was never intended to replace Quicken Desktop, so it was no "threat" to "non cloud users".

BTW I forgot one thing.  There was already an Online (web) Quicken.  Basically it was a very watered down Quicken, that couldn't share anything with the Desktop version.  It was in fact a Mint competitor, and guess when it was killed?  Shortly after Intuit bought Mint.  Mint was the "better online Quicken".
(Edited)
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 299,040 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
@mistertheplague

This was just posted, and it has the thread that the announced the remote desktop beta (they called it "hosted"), and the final answer when they shut it down.  Note the announcement thread is no longer accessible by non SuperUsers (which I'm not), so I don't know if my replies are in there or not.  In fact I can't remember if I didn't just deleted at least one of them.
I posted that this isn't what customers wanted, and that they should spell out that this beta was for remote desktop and not some mobile app or other GUI that would look/work good on different mobile devices (it wouldn't be touch friendly).

But people (SuperUsers) jumped on me telling me that the thread was for them to announce and for user to tell what they wanted, not for me to tell them why it wouldn't work.  So I dropped out it at that point.  Actually I remember now, at that point I couldn't removed my posts, so I posted that Kathryn should just remove my posts.  I don't know if she did or not.

https://getsatisfaction.com/quickencommunity/topics/hosted-quicken-eta?topic-reply-list%5Bsettings%5...
Photo of mistertheplague

mistertheplague

  • 3,650 Points 3k badge 2x thumb
@QPW: I remember this thread was made visible, I think accidentally, to non-SUs.

I was reading through it with great interest until one day I came back to it and got the red-line "Sorry! You don't have access to the content you requested. If you think you should have access, please contact the administrator of the community" message.
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 299,040 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
It was made "non public" sometime after the beta was canceled.
Photo of Dick Alston

Dick Alston

  • 152 Points 100 badge 2x thumb

I definitely do not want any financial information in the cloud- business or personal. I don't trust any "company" to be as protective of my information as I am.

I own a business (Telecom and IT) with 70 employees and have been using QuickBooks for eighteen years, but would never switch to a cloud based product, subscription or other, with sensitive information.

If QuickBooks tries to push us in this direction, there are lots of alternatives.

Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 299,040 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
@Dick Alston the subscription has nothing to do with where the data is stored.  Where the data is hasn't changed.
Photo of gmalis1

gmalis1, SuperUser

  • 143,110 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
Personal Capital has really good investment analysis.

Using it as an every day personal financial software is abysmal.

I can't add categories.  I can't create subcategories.  I can't create any tags other than their four or five they provide.

Horrible implementation.  But you get what you pay for...and in PC's defense they are selling investment advice, so why even bother with every day checking and credit card transaction management.

Of course, the best of both worlds would be Mint transaction download and customization with Personal Capital's investment features.  

Not going to happen.  
Photo of mistertheplague

mistertheplague

  • 3,650 Points 3k badge 2x thumb
@gmalis1:

Personal Capital is slated to add category customization by end of March:
https://twitter.com/SiliconPM/status/838168979948462080

This will not, at least as far as I can tell, bring PC up to par with Mint for daily use. Tag customization is still lacking, AFAICT. Without custom tags, you can't include/exclude transactions from budgets and/or reports. So PC will remain as a (albeit much more useful) cash flow analyzer.
Not going to happen.  
I don't know about this. It might. Jim Del Favero's a smart guy. He was product manager for Quicken at a time (in the early to late aughts) when he and others realized that the biggest existential threat facing Quicken, and really all PFMs, was abandonment.

Auto-download solved much of this problem, since it was now so much easier for users to see and manipulate their data in the program. But much of the problem of user-return remained for Quicken, as well as for MS Money.

The problem, Del Favero has pointed out, was that Quicken, Money, et al. still weren't essential for users in order to live their financial lives. Bill Pay, e.g., was a feature intended to solve this existential problem, by making Quicken sticky, i.e., making it essential by compelling users to live in the program. 

(As an aside, there's a great blog written by a former Microsoft engineer who worked on Money from 2001-2009. In chronicling the demise of Money, he cites the idiocy of MSFT executives in directing engineers to shoo users out of Money as fast as possible. The suits thought Money should mostly function as a vector to Microsoft's online presence, so they ordered the Money team to plaster the app with multiple links to MSN, etc. As a current Money user I can report that this legacy is especially annoying now that none of those links work).

Anyway, I've often wondered why Personal Capital would add any money management capabilities to their app, given what they are as a company and given that the app is free. The answer, I think, is so that people keep using the app. Maybe one day, a free rider like me will decide, "Why not give this hybrid advisor thing a try?" I'm almost a thousand percent sure they're wrong about me, but others? Who knows.

And Mint? I feel confident that if PC added just a handful of key budgeting features (if anyone from PC is reading this, post here and I'll tell you which ones), a large percentage of Mint's user base would drop Mint like a hot rivet. I would. For one thing, their sync sucks (how's that for alliteration?) since Intuit acquired them. For another, they're essentially useless for investments.

But, maybe if PC got close enough, Intuit would actually compete. They have more to lose, I think. 
Photo of gmalis1

gmalis1, SuperUser

  • 143,110 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
I really don't want to sidetrack this conversation from the real message of Quicken going to a yearly subscription model while holding your data hostage by freezing ANY entry if the subscription lapses.

Suffice it to say that I find Personal Capital poor in downloading and poor in banking/credit card transaction categorization/tags/reports.

Using MintToReport in conjunction with Mint I get really nice customizable reports (and soon to be graphs).  I find Mint reliable in downloading my transactions.  I do find Mint lacking in investment functions, but hey, all my investment companies give me plenty of reporting and comparison options if I need them.  In my case, all I'm looking for in Mint is my investment transactions and what my investment is currently worth. 

And I don't get pestered by Personal Capital's incessant phone calls requesting I talk with one of their advisors about my portfolio.  
Photo of Jim (JR) Harris

Jim (JR) Harris

  • 2,524 Points 2k badge 2x thumb
@mistertheplague

You said:
As a current Money user I can report that this legacy is especially annoying now that none of those links work).
Have you tried re-directing these links to localhost in your hosts file?  That causes any attempt to go there to silently fail.  (I do this with annoying in-web-site stuff all the time.)

Viz.:
127.0.0.1   [annoying link that doesn't work]
::1 [the same link as above]
127.0.0.1 [the next annoying link]
::1 [put it here too]
and continue that with the rest of your annoying links.

If you're not familiar with this yourself, and you don't know a computer guy who can help, PM me and I will try to help you.

Jim (JR)
Photo of mistertheplague

mistertheplague

  • 3,650 Points 3k badge 2x thumb
@Jim:
Have you tried re-directing these links to localhost in your hosts file?  That causes any attempt to go there to silently fail.  (I do this with annoying in-web-site stuff all the time.)
I have, actually. A Money MVP posted your workaround a while back on the MSFT Money forum; it works.

I just like to grandstand now and then :-)
Photo of Frankx

Frankx

  • 564 Points 500 badge 2x thumb
This is a terrible idea.  This software is not something that needs a lot of updating or changing.  If the problem is that they can't keep "supporting" (something they really have done very poorly, is at all,  in recent years) many old versions of the software, then the company should simply stop supporting older years.  For Quicken to try and trap and gouge people like me - a 25+ year user - who regularly update the software every two years, by making us convert to a subscription basis is not only unfair, it is unconscionable.  If this happens, I will be moving to another provider/solution.

BTW - I don't see any "Voting Buttons" BUT I VOTE THAT QUICKEN SHOULD NOT MOVE TO THE SUBSCRIPTION MODEL.
(Edited)
Photo of gmalis1

gmalis1, SuperUser

  • 138,596 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
The "vote" button is on the upper right of this page.  Please vote there.

Whether you know it or not, Quicken is basically on a subscription model already.  It's a three year end of life for downloads.  And some users complain about that as well.

But the stickler in all this is taking away the ability to manually enter transactions if the subscription lapses...something that is still available today if you decide not to upgrade past the three year period.

And of course, the uncertainness of what the pricing will be for the subscription.

As of now, MY advice would be just sit tight and continue using their current version of Quicken.  If you are beyond the three year download window, you're manually entering transactions anyways...so upgrading really makes zero sense.  If you are on the cusp of losing download capabilities, upgrading now to Quicken 2017 will buy you another 3 plus years of downloads.

I'm keeping my Q2017...will not subscribe to Q2018 and will reevaluate my needs sometime in 2020.  
Photo of Peculiar_Investor

Peculiar_Investor

  • 2,098 Points 2k badge 2x thumb
A refinement/clarification of the above, Quicken Canada users shouldn't necessarily upgrade to 2017, as Quicken Canada 2017 is the first release under this new subscription model. 
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 294,052 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
Note that Quicken Canadian users are in a even worse shape in that it isn't possible to buy Quicken Canadian 2015 or2016, since they are not available in stores (they were only sold through the Quicken website).

So someone that has Quicken Canadian 2014 is going to have a really tough choice come the end of April.  This is one of those cases where the people that bought Quicken more often or just lucked out that 2016 was their "3rd year" is going to be the best off (more time to decide what to do).
Photo of Grumpy

Grumpy

  • 534 Points 500 badge 2x thumb
I will run Q2014 to failure.  I am afraid that if I go to a Q2017 subscription, then I will go down with the Quicken ship before too long anyways.  Come May, I am interested to see just how inconvenient the manual entry is.  And investments are now running and updating well in a spreadsheet for me, so I have discovered I really didn't need that feature after all.  Slowly making progress towards full weaning!

All they had to do was not try to rip off their long standing customers and there wouldn't be this 6-page discussion and well over 300 votes.  They had a 3-year pricing model which loyal long-term customers had settled into comfort with and didn't motivate them to investigate alternatives.  Some day this will be a case study in MBA curricula.  
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 294,052 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
I'm going to throw one thing out for the Canadian users are in this tight spot.
QIF imports.
Photo of mike

mike

  • 262 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
I generally avoid posting complaints about problems like this, but in this case I have to make an exception.   I am currently running 2014 with over 20 years of data and was going to upgrade this year after tax time.  With this change I think I am going to have to start looking at what I can convert to as the risk of going to a subscription based version of Quicken is too risky.

Its not just having to pay the yearly subscription that is a problem, but Quicken is not something like music where if you loose "full" access to your data, you deal with it.  Quicken is a major part of your financial well being and if you loose "full" access to your data you are screwed.
Photo of smayer97

smayer97, SuperUser

  • 162,410 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
Quicken is a major part of your financial well being and if you loose "full" access to your data you are screwed.
That is why it feels like extortion and bordering on ransomware.
Photo of Ian Sutherland

Ian Sutherland

  • 258 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
I am currently running Quicken Home and Business 2015 and I have been using Quicken since 1998. I won't be renewing to the subscription model so my marriage to Quicken will end April 2018. I am researching alternatives and may continue to use my Quicken 2015 manually until some company provides a reasonable software alternative that I can purchase, as I have been doing with Quicken all these years. This is nothing more than a cash grab with the threat of losing your data tossed in to keep you hooked. Shame on Quicken.
(Edited)
Photo of Steve K

Steve K

  • 474 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
I have been using Quicken since Quicken for DOS 2.0 (late 1980's, I think).  I have investments, checking, credit cards, businesses, rental properties.

  • My data is my property. I expect to be able to keep backups as long as I want on my own devices. It may not be required for any fiscal responsibilities, other than nostalgia, but at the time of this writing, I can access data files earlier than 2002 with old versions of Quicken and the converter that Quicken provided. I have converted several older backups. In my case, I have an old contract with a business parter that requires that I maintain all my costs for when we someday sell or liquidate the business, in case disputes arise at that time.
  • If I ever choose to switch to a competitor's product, (Mint?) I expect to continue accessing my data
  • I don't want to have to worry that Quicken will do what many other Web sites have done: change portal policies or shut down portals. How long will Intuit keep my data at my finger tips if they change their policies in the future, and change or shutdown a subscription product?
  • I want to use my data when I want it, with or without Internet access, to add manual transactions, to update/modify data, to lookup data or to make reports. I'm in a rural area, and Satellite signals fail in bad weather. I also travel a lot, and don't usually pay the horrific fees many hotels charge.
  • I don't want to have to sign on every 5 minutes (or 15 or 30) because I stopped typing while I was thinking about the reports, or cross referencing data from a mortgage or spreadsheet, or got up for coffee, or was distracted by someone or a phone call or the TV.
  • The new features in Quicken year after year are rarely exciting. I don't use attachments, etc. I update every 2 or 3 years, not every year. Given the choice, I would sometimes go 4 or 5 years.
  • I, and many others who have used Quicken for many years, don't spend much of Intuit's precious Support resources. I've used Chat or a phone call maybe 3 or 4 times in 30 years. The statements above that a Subscription model implies that they will reduce the number of versions requiring support to about 1/4 of the current model. I will see that as a benefit when the promise in writing that the product prices will be cut accordingly.
  • Adobe, Microsoft and others give you subscriptions as on option, not a requirement. I have no software on my computer that requires a subscription. That includes Virus checking (I use (an open source product, very very free). The one thing that comes close to an annual subscription is TurboTax. But I still don't use the on-line, cloud version for many of the above-mentioned reasons.

If Quicken goes to a cloud subscription, after 30 years, I'll go to something else. No ifs, ands or buts about it. There may be transition pains, but it will be worth it.

Steve K.
Photo of gmalis1

gmalis1, SuperUser

  • 142,770 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
Steve K...There has been NO mention of Quicken going to a Cloud based subscription.  I'm not sure where you got the impression that your Quicken data will be stored and accessed in the cloud.  

As in Quicken 2017 Canada, which already has become an annual subscription, your data will remain on your local hard drive...it will NOT be cloud based.

The main issues, which you seem to have completely missed, is Quicken becoming "read only" if your subscription lapses.  And, of course, the pricing of the subscription.

And lastly, you mention you could be looking at another product ("Mint?"), which IS cloud based, since all your data resides on Intuit's servers.

So, there's kind of a contradiction there.   
Photo of Steve K

Steve K

  • 474 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
So, scratch Mint as an alternative. I wish I could edit my post.

Yes, I thought this was a Cloud-based subscription. However, many of my concerns still apply to the subscription-only issue, especially the read-only. I didn't miss that point, but you're right, I didn't mention that clearly in my post. Again, wish I could edit it.

The read-only and other related issues I mentioned will remain strong enough that I WILL drop Quicken when it becomes an annual subscription model, especially if prices don't drop substantially and failure to pay dues locks my data in a read-only state.

Add this to my list:
  • It's MY data, not theirs. I expect to access or modify it for any purpose in the future, no matter how old it is or if I paid my annual dues, or have moved to a competing product.

--Steve K
(Edited)
Photo of Bylo Selhi

Bylo Selhi

  • 5,090 Points 5k badge 2x thumb
As in Quicken 2017 Canada, which already has become an annual subscription, your data will remain on your local hard drive...it will NOT be cloud based.
The main issues, which you seem to have completely missed, is Quicken becoming "read only" if your subscription lapses.  And, of course, the pricing of the subscription. 
User data may not be stored in the cloud however there still remains a dependency on the cloud for authentication of IntuitID/QuickenID. 

I agree that the main issue of contention remains the crippled "read-only" access to users' data should their subscriptions lapse (or Quicken/H.I.G. cease operations.)

The substantial price increase for subscriptions for users who currently upgrade every three years is also an issue. But from reading this thread it's much less important.
Photo of Steve K

Steve K

  • 474 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
I'm splitting hairs here, but I it's not "much less" important. Although it is a little less important to me, they go hand in hand. The price is higher and required annually, and if you don't like it, your data gets locked up. That's a significant reason many people are upset about the data being locked up if you don't pay the ransom every year.

The fact that the data remains on your machine, but they lock it up if you don't pay the annual extortion fees makes the word "ransom" feel quite appropriate in this context. Microsoft and Adobe, to use their examples, give you options.

I stumbled onto this thread by accident, trying to solve a different problem. Add this to my list:

  • Any company that would surprise their users with such a move would invoke extreme shock and anger, resulting in the immediate, irreparable destruction of any customer loyalty, and immediate efforts to abandon all of that company's products.

--Steve K
(Edited)
Photo of Bylo Selhi

Bylo Selhi

  • 5,090 Points 5k badge 2x thumb
I'm splitting hairs here, but I it's not "much less" important. Although it is a little less important to me, they go hand in hand. The price is higher and required annually, and if you don't like it, your data gets locked up. That's a significant reason many people are upset about the data being locked up if you don't pay the ransom every year.
The distinction I'm trying to make is that crippling the product so it's "read-only" is a show-stopper for most of us while a high subscription price isn't. Why? Because if you let your subscription lapse then under the current model (in the US, but no longer in Canada) you can still use the product manually. That may not be ideal but it's workable. However if the product gets crippled as it is now in Canada, you can't do anything with it other than export your data out. And even that is problematic as anyone who's tried it already knows. 

But even worse if Q/HIG cease operations the product may not work at all assuming there's a dependency on IID/QID authentication servers. I realize that may not be the case today. Then again, until a few weeks ago neither was crippling the product to "read-only." As a result I can't put any level of deviousness past the current management. Can you?
Photo of Jim (JR) Harris

Jim (JR) Harris

  • 2,524 Points 2k badge 2x thumb
Bylo said:
But even worse if Q/HIG cease operations the product may not work at all assuming there's a dependency on IID/QID authentication servers. I realize that may not be the case today. Then again, until a few weeks ago neither was crippling the product to "read-only."
Bylo,

The lack of a dependency on the authentication servers is not necessarily true for anyone with Q15+, as they require a periodic "phone home" to re-validate.  IMHO this is almost enough to drive me away because I cannot afford to have my product depend on an Internet connection that may not always exist.

Sheesh!  As onerous as Microsoft's "Genuine Microsoft" validation process was, at least with regard to Win-7, once you validated, you were done.  Quicken now requires a once-a-couple-of-weeks re-connect to continue using the product, else you get the "Oops! Something went wrong!" screen and you're locked out.

Jim (JR)
Photo of Bylo Selhi

Bylo Selhi

  • 5,090 Points 5k badge 2x thumb
The lack of a dependency on the authentication servers is not necessarily true for anyone with Q15+, as they require a periodic "phone home" to re-validate.  
That's why I said, "that may not be the case today. " I'm on QW15 Canada. I only got prompted for an IID/QID when I first installed and updated the program a couple of years ago. However I appreciate that those on the US version of Q15 do.

In any case,
1. What's to stop Quicken from pushing code in some future patch that creates the necessity to authenticate periodically?
2. If someone reinstalls Q15, say after a hard disk failure, they may be required to reauthenticate (if they don't have a backup copy of their quicken.ini file.)
Photo of Jim (JR) Harris

Jim (JR) Harris

  • 2,524 Points 2k badge 2x thumb
If I had the time, (and the coding skills), I would take Wireshark and sniff my network connection for Quicken's "phone home ET" messages, listen to the responses, and then code a tiny utility that duplicates that handshake locally so that it effectively isolates Quicken's day-to-day use from needing the Internet.

Because it is absolutely essential, (for reasons I have discussed elsewhere), that my ability to use the program be totally independent from my ability to connect to the Internet, I am sorely tempted to write such a utility.

Point 1:  Why should I require Quicken's on-line permission to locally, manually import a QFX file containing my financial data into the copy of Quicken on my computer?

Point 2:  Why should my ability to use Quicken at all depend on the presence of an Internet connection?  I may not be able to get, or get at a reasonable speed, an Internet connection - or it may be so risky that I don't want to use it.  Because of that I'm locked out of my software just because it can't phone home?

Sheesh!  It's almost as if they were BEGGING to be hacked.

Jim (JR)
Photo of Jim (JR) Harris

Jim (JR) Harris

  • 2,524 Points 2k badge 2x thumb
Bylo,
1. What's to stop Quicken from pushing code in some future patch that creates the necessity to authenticate periodically?
Absolutely nothing.

All they have to do is edit their servers with a poison-pill that blocks access, (Oops!  Something has gone wrong. . .), unless the software has downloaded the latest and greatest "Security and Usability Update"

AFAIK, the Q15+ versions already have that requirement.  Most people put the ID in their Vault so that the software re-validates silently.
2. If someone reinstalls Q15, say after a hard disk failure, they may be required to reauthenticate (if they don't have a backup copy of their quicken.ini file.)
Re: The .ini file preventing the need to re-authenticate?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  It depends on what they do to the software between now and then.

This assumes that they don't have something encrypted into a bizzarro hex string, buried somewhere in the Registry.  It is not uncommon for software products to "booby-trap" their installations and configuration files to detect re-installation, so even keeping the ini file may not work.

If that's not the case now, there is nothing, (see point #1), that prevents it from happening tomorrow, next week, or sometime after that.

What about the not-so-unlikely event that Quicken Inc. goes down faster than the Titanic?  If the software requires re-authentication to use, or (at best), re-authentication to re-install, the absence of Q's servers is the Kiss of Death.

Jim (JR)
Photo of Jim (JR) Harris

Jim (JR) Harris

  • 2,524 Points 2k badge 2x thumb
you can't do anything with it other than export your data out. And even that is problematic as anyone who's tried it already knows.
Two words: "seven-zip"  To anyone with any kind of skill, it might be an epiphany.

Like I said, it's almost as if they were BEGGING  to be hacked.

Jim (JR)
(Edited)
Photo of Bylo Selhi

Bylo Selhi

  • 5,090 Points 5k badge 2x thumb
Absolutely nothing.
Absolutely! My question was entirely rhetorical intended to point out how vulnerable we are.

As for hacking, rather than intercept the traffic between Quicken and their authentication servers, it may be simpler to patch the code in Quicken that determines if that authentication was successful.

For example back in the day when Lotus 1-2-3 required the original System floppy to be inserted in the (only) floppy disk drive on an IBM PC-XT I developed a one byte ZAP to defeat that requirement. The System floppy was "copy protected" by means of a hidden sector. My ZAP simply made their software think it got the expected response to a floppy disk read of that sector. At the time others were writing and selling software utilities that went to great lengths to faithfully copy the floppy including the hidden sector.
Photo of Jim (JR) Harris

Jim (JR) Harris

  • 2,524 Points 2k badge 2x thumb
I did something like that for the Atari 8-bit a while back.  Had fun with the PC too back then.

Sounds like the two of us should go out for a beer sometime soon!  (laughing!)

Jim (JR)

p.s.  I didn't want to say something like that on an open Quicken forum, they might get [annoyed], but I'm sure someone has already thought of that.
Photo of Jim (JR) Harris

Jim (JR) Harris

  • 2,524 Points 2k badge 2x thumb
As for hacking, rather than intercept the traffic between Quicken and their authentication servers, it may be simpler to patch the code in Quicken that determines if that authentication was successful.
Reverse engineering their code could be interpreted as a clear violation of their EULA.  Trapping their network requests with an external virtual web server is a little bit harder to fuss at.

Jim (JR)
Photo of Bylo Selhi

Bylo Selhi

  • 5,090 Points 5k badge 2x thumb
Another indication that Quicken is already tightening the screws on users. In thread Can I run my software without logging into quicken.com? user gmalis1 says 
Also, logging on is required to register your version of Quicken.  It is also used to update any revisions and updates to the Quicken software...and as of today, ALL users of Quicken 2017 MUST be on R4 or later due to a change in servers...thus REQUIRING everyone to register their copy of Quicken by logging into the Quicken servers.  
Photo of Bylo Selhi

Bylo Selhi

  • 5,090 Points 5k badge 2x thumb
Reverse engineering their code could be interpreted as a clear violation of their EULA. 
I'd imagine something like that would indeed be a violation of almost any modern EULA. (It wasn't in the days of Lotus 1-2-3 v2.1.) Then again a since when has a minor detail like an EULA discouraged a hacker who's intent on defeating a limitation in software? (Again, a rhetorical question.)
Photo of mshiggins

mshiggins, SuperUser

  • 324,800 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
Bylo and Jim, recommend you both change the subject as at the very least you are off topic for this post.
Photo of Ed Middleton

Ed Middleton

  • 232 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
One thing most people looking to change are not taking into consideration when looking at alternatives is that the online versions, where you provide your banking passwords so that your data is downloaded automatically into your online software, mean that if there is a breach of your bank account you are not covered for any losses as you have given your bank pswd to someone else which is a no-no!!

This leaves me with only 2 serious alternatives:
MoneyDance and AceMoney.

Anyone have any advice on these 2 versions?

Both I've tried to convert my exported data file ( data back to 1987) into with some luck but with lots of either missing data or misplaced data.  I estimated it would take me at least 2 full days to clear everything up.  Almost going line by line through all the accounts and I have about 50 accounts in total over all these years.
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 298,708 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
is that the online versions, where you provide your banking passwords so that your data is downloaded automatically into your online software, mean that if there is a breach of your bank account you are not covered for any losses as you have given your bank pswd to someone else which is a no-no!!
This is a long held fallacy.  That is not how the law works.

Let me give you a few examples.  I stupidly write my username and password on a piece of paper and leave it on my desk.  Someone comes in and uses that information to log in and transfer money out of my account.  One might believe that because I left my username and password where someone can get at it, I responsible for that transaction.  But in truth I didn't authorize that transaction, so it is the person that did the transaction that is breaking the law, and the person that is responsible, not me.

Here is another example.  I have a credit card.  Somehow someone gets the number, and starts charging things on it.  Who is responsible?  The crook is, not me.

When you give your username and password to a place like Mint, you authorized them to download your transactions, you didn't authorize them (or a hacker) to take your money.

Now this is where people get confused.  The service like Mint may or may not be responsible for the problem depending on if they were negligent or not, but even if they are not responsible, that doesn't mean you are.  It means the hacker/crook is.
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 298,708 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
P.S.
One thing most people looking to change are not taking into consideration when looking at alternatives is that the online versions
Stating this again, which has been stated countless amounts of time in this thread.  "Subscription" doesn't equal any change in where your data is stored.

But note that if you are concerned about where your usernames and passwords are stored, along with your transactions, you shouldn't be using Express Web Connect or Quicken Mobile, because by definition these do store your usernames, passwords, security questions, transactions on the Quicken/Intuit servers, so that they provide the service that you have requested.
Photo of Bylo Selhi

Bylo Selhi

  • 5,090 Points 5k badge 2x thumb
@QPW
This is a long held fallacy.  That is not how the law works.
Is that a legal opinion?

To add to Ed Middleton's comments, from Bank customer's lawsuit raises questions about fraud liability  "CIBC's electronic access agreement also makes customers potentially liable if they use software that collects and displays financial information from different sources. One such aggregation service is a popular one offered by Mint.com."

From What you need to know about financial planning tools, apps "Global News contacted four of the country’s major banks and asked them two questions: If a customer uses financial planning apps that require their banking login, are they violating their terms of service? And, are there any apps that you [the bank] has authorized or partnered with to allow this?" Read the banks' responses. They don't support your thesis that this is a fallacy.

Note also that Mint.com has been in operation in Canada for several years now yet their website doesn't include a single endorsement by a Canadian bank. I have to wonder why.

At best this is a grey area--if you like to gamble your assets and don't mind that your bank is betting against you.
Photo of Ed Middleton

Ed Middleton

  • 232 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
After much work I have decided to go with Moneydance as it best suits what I need.  Bringing all my data in from back to 1987 was not possible so I just decided that now that my budget for this year is done that I would just start with the beginning of this year as my start date and then just transfer over qif files as needed.  Old data would be nice to have but not needed really for anything.  I still can access it with the old Quicken version should I need to reference it.
Photo of Ed Middleton

Ed Middleton

  • 232 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
Totally disagree.  If you read the account access information from the bank you must protect and keep your access card and password separate and not disclose to even family members.  Bank will protect you from fraudulent attacks but not if they find out you have an account at places like mint.com that have stored both your access # and password.  You basically have given this information to a third party which goes totally against my second sentence above.

Take a look at my bank; TD Bank...section 

http://www.tdcanadatrust.com/consent/form_530012/2012_nov/530012.pdf
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 297,056 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
I would like to say that in fact I was talking about federal law (US law, Canadian could be different), and certainly the financial institutions would have the upper hand in this.  As in it unlikely that you could fight it even if you are legally right.

BUT I would say that in fact anyone using Quicken in other than manual or Web Connect (you download the QFX file) or any other program where you don't use any of the "automatic" methods, basically are in the same boat as the online services.

Right off the bat Express Web Connect requires storing your username and password, and security questions.  This no different from Mint, or the others.  The financial institution isn't concerned about where your transactions are stored.  They are concerned about access to your account(s).

So that brings us to Direct Connect (OFX protocol).  You are covered there, right?
After all that is Quicken talking directly to the financial institutions.
Well folks your financial institution didn't approve of where you are storing the username and password (password Vault).

But didn't they?
After all they approved for Quicken Inc/Intuit servers to contact them, and transfer information.  And they got to know that Quicken uses the password vault.  That is certainly one for the lawyers.

But wait if that was "OK", then what about Express Web Connect?
After all one of the things that Quicken Inc/Intuit have said time and time again, is they have to be participating partners.  As in the financial institution has agreed to this kind of access.

Hmmm.  Does Mint just access financial institution websites with no approval?
No they don't.  There is no aggregator service on that level that is going to work without approval.

So basically even though you probably will lose in the argument against your financial institution about how your account was hacked (if it is hacked), your only "safe bet" is manual input or downloading a file with your transactions, and importing that.
Photo of Grands Kids

Grands Kids

  • 178 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
Just a few thoughts....

Quicken gets bought out by a hedge fund. Hedge funds do what hedge funds do, cut costs and maximize profits.

Hmmm lets start by tripling the $90 price to every year rather than every three years. So even if only 50% renew they are still ahead. Only allow subscriptions by credit card that automatically renews if you forget to cancel. We can always hold users data hostage.


Now lets cut costs. No longer a physical product but download only. Also cuts out the retail stores. Lets lay off staff as the media has reported as less users means less support staff.

Lets not spend any money on product improvements for this mature product. Just change the version year and do a couple of cosmetic changes annually.


This is a business model that would make Mr. Wonderful on Shark Tank proud.
(Edited)
Photo of jacobs

jacobs, SuperUser

  • 60,266 Points 50k badge 2x thumb
@Grand Kids: A few of the things you lament really aren't problems, in my opinion. Others are.

The boxed product with a CD is really past being useful. Most Mac users who have recent vintage Macs don't even have optical drive on their Macs. And for people who do have optical drives, the version that comes in the box is really only a start-up program which immediately downloads the current version from the Quicken servers; the CDs for the retail box get pressed a month or two before the software goes on sale, and the software has always been updated with more testing and bug fixing in that time. (I know there are a very small percentage of users who have limited Internet connectivity who may choose the CD version -- but it still needs to download the current version online.) And they want to move to a model where they can just release new features and fixes when they're ready, instead of holding things back for a large annual new product release; that approach benefits everyone.

There's no indication yet that they intend to raise the price to $90/year. More likely, they will price it less than the current version -- but only a little less. The current retail price is $75, so my guess is they'll aim for something like $55 or $60. Of course, that's still a significant upgrade for people who currently purchase Quicken once every three years under the current model: $60 x 3 = $180 versus $75 over three years. I expect there will be an uproar when the pricing does get announced. But the reality may be that they just need to generate more revenue than they are currently bringing in under the every-third-year model to support ongoing program development, maintenance for connectivity with thousands of financial institutions and operating system upgrades, and free support. If the average Quicken user buys from Amazon for $40, Quicken is probably making no more than $35, which equates to less than $12/year. That's probably just not enough.

I haven't seen any stories about staff reductions at Quicken. (I'm not saying it's not true, just that I haven't read that anywhere, and I don't see it in a quick Google search.)

Regarding upgrades to the product, I'd just note that keeping up with changes to Microsoft and Apple operating system changes takes time and money. I know users just expect software to magically keep working indefinitely, but software developers do have to do work -- sometimes a lot of work -- to keep up with OS changes. Additionally, changing Internet security standards create the need for development work, as do never-ending changes by various banks and financial institutions to their websites which Quicken must navigate. Most users discount all this work -- it's not visible like new or re-designed features -- but it's a cost we need to pay for in order to keep using our data year after year, decade after decade.

That all said, I join with many people here in being adamantly opposed to a subscription program which would lock us out of manually entering any data if we drop a subscription (or if Quicken drops our product). That's just a non-starter for me. And if they aim too high in setting their price point, they will drive users away, and it will accelerate a death spiral for Quicken. 
Photo of Bylo Selhi

Bylo Selhi

  • 5,090 Points 5k badge 2x thumb
Regarding upgrades to the product, I'd just note that keeping up with changes to Microsoft and Apple operating system changes takes time and money. I know users just expect software to magically keep working indefinitely, but software developers do have to do work -- sometimes a lot of work -- to keep up with OS changes.
And yet people are using ancient versions of Quicken with Windows 10, including versions of Quicken that predate Win8.1 and Win7, et al. (I have no idea if that also applies to the iOS platform, but I suspect so.)

I don't disagree with the need to upgrade products to support new OS versions, especially to exploit new features. It's just that this is often overblown by software vendors in order to justify their new versions and associated upgrade fees.

Moreover, especially in the case of Quicken, I suspect most of the people who decry the current cash grab might be more comfortable with it if only Quicken was more serious about (a) fixing long-standing bugs and (b) testing those updates more carefully so that each wasn't two steps forward and one (or more) steps backward.
Photo of Peculiar_Investor

Peculiar_Investor

  • 2,936 Points 2k badge 2x thumb
@jacobs
There's no indication yet that they intend to raise the price to $90/year. More likely, they will price it less than the current version -- but only a little less. The current retail price is $75, so my guess is they'll aim for something like $55 or $60. 
I'd be careful with the speculation based on what's happened with the Quicken Canada version. Since they've withdrawn the product from the retail channel the Quicken Canada price has risen and for the most part they've stopped giving existing customers a discount to upgrade. 

Once they remove the retail channel (Staples, Amazon, etc) they become the sole price setter. Do you think the price will fall or rise?
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 298,708 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
Once they remove the retail channel (Staples, Amazon, etc) they become the sole price setter. Do you think the price will fall or rise?
I'm not really going to guess, but I see no reason to believe that it wouldn't have as much possibility for it to go down as it would to go up.  It will in fact depend how well received their pricing and subscription model is excepted.

It a mistake to believe that Amazon, and Staples are in competition with Quicken Inc.
Quicken Inc is the source for the product, they would have already negotiated the wholesale price with their retailers, which clearly much lower than the retail price.  Amazon isn't going to sell something under their costs, plus some profit.

If Quicken Inc directly sells the downloaded version at the same prices the retailer sold it for, then their profit would be whatever were getting in profit from selling to the retailers, plus whatever profit the retailers were making.

So the real question is a very complicated mix.  With retailers they sell more copies, but Quicken Inc gets less.  With bringing it in house they sell less copies, but even if they matched Amazon's prices they would get more profit from each sale.
(Edited)
Photo of gary smith

gary smith

  • 184 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
pure and simple for me.  This is a money grab,  I've been using Quicken for many years.  I upgraded every 3 years in order to maintain the ability to connect to my bank.  No other reason as I haven't seen any great upgrades in the new version.  I will not subscribe to 2017 and will continue using 2014 until a viable substitute comes out.  Then I will cut the string entirely!
Photo of gmalis1

gmalis1, SuperUser

  • 142,770 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
Here's my "fall back" plan.

Don't upgrade to Quicken 2018.  Continue using Quicken 2017 for it's "useful" download life.

Then, download the .ofx file from my bank/credit card/investment company and convert to .qif.  Adjust the headers (or use an inexpensive utility to do it automatically).  Import the .qif to Quicken.

For daily stock prices, I've downloaded Netstock and will create a price file to import into Quicken.

I'm retired.  I have plenty of time to fool around and manipulate MY data to get it into Quicken. 

A subscription product that locks my data if I don't renew will NOT be in my plans.

Alternatively, another product altogether could be in my future.  As soon as Quicken Inc shoots itself in the foot with this model, there will be other software developed and marketed in addition to the other existing offerings.  
Photo of Bylo Selhi

Bylo Selhi

  • 5,090 Points 5k badge 2x thumb
Don't upgrade to Quicken 2018.  Continue using Quicken 2017 for it's "useful" download life.
That advice comes a bit late for Canadians because (a) the subscription model has already been imposed on us as of Quicken 2017 and (b) Quicken 2016 has been taken off the market.

In fact that's one reason why this thread got started: to warn our friends to the south to expect the same for the US version, perhaps as soon as 2018, and to take evasive action.

Once you convert your data to a subscription model version there may be no way to go back to a data format that's compatible with an earlier non-subscription version of Quicken where you can at least add transactions manually.
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 298,708 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
The problem with a long thread like this is that unless you have been following it from the beginning it is EXTREMELY unlikely you would have read it all, and it does in fact have both US and Canadian users on it, and as such people get confused about what applies directly to them.

Unfortunately anything said here will be quickly lost in the thread, and it has already more times than I choose to count.

I'm going to stop following this thread now, but I would like to say that I'm personally disappointed in Quicken Inc.  I know things like this take time to decided on, but I would have thought 2 months is plenty of time for them to at least announce that they are not going to go through with the "reduced functionality mode" (no adding of transactions if the subscription lapse).

But I guess they are trying to see how many Canadian users subscribe to make up their minds.  And the tells me that they don't even understand that the main reason that people rebuy Quicken is to get downloading, and that they don't have to use such a threat.  If they don't understand this fundamental part of the "Quicken consumer" what chance do they have providing bug fixes and useful features?

I guess they still have some more time to see how many more people they can fool or bully into subscribing since as it turns out Quicken 2014 Canadian version doesn't lose its downloading of transactions until May 31, 2017 (a month later than the US version, because it came out a month later than the US version).
Photo of Peculiar_Investor

Peculiar_Investor

  • 2,936 Points 2k badge 2x thumb
I've been checking back on this topic less and less, mostly because the interface is terrible to follow what's happening. The interface doesn't allow you to properly "Follow" the discussion.

I suspect many others have made their views known, find it difficult to follow the ensuing discussion and most importantly have given up on Quicken changing their stance.

Hopefully they've at least voted. 

Heck, Quicken reps used to be engaged in the discussion, but they too seem to have abandoned it since the CEO post.
Photo of smayer97

smayer97, SuperUser

  • 163,492 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
Again, for those interested, here is a summary of all the key issues discussed in this thread.

(If you find this reply helpful, please be sure to click "Like", so others will know, thanks.)
Photo of smayer97

smayer97, SuperUser

  • 163,492 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
Again, for those interested, here is a summary of all the key issues discussed in this thread.

(If you find this reply helpful, please be sure to click "Like", so others will know, thanks.)
Photo of Microfiche

Microfiche

  • 444 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
Canadian user here - been using Quicken since I beta tested a version in 2000.
I am not happy about the subscription model - not a fan of renting software.
However it looks like all the software companies see this as a cash cow, and with some software there just are few alternatives. I use Quicken Home & Business and have pretty much given up on the idea of software support from Intuit. Any time I have contacted support, I end up knowing more than the "specialist" I am talking to, and I generally give up with the problem unresolved, so I don't feel there is much value in their support service. More and more software companies are now offering these user-to-user forums as their primary support model.
If I could find a viable alternative at this point, I would be easily swayed to moving to another program, but I haven't found anything yet. I track my investments in Quicken, plus have about a dozen other accounts.
I can't remember the last time I upgraded Quicken and found a feature that I was really impressed with. I do know that the pain in the ass Intuit ID confirmation annoys me constantly.
I have voted for them to reverse, FWIW.
Photo of Peculiar_Investor

Peculiar_Investor

  • 2,732 Points 2k badge 2x thumb
I agree with all your points. Well said. As I posted on few time on this topic, unless Quicken changes their model, I'm sticking with my Quicken 2016 and will enter transactions manually. 
Photo of Bylo Selhi

Bylo Selhi

  • 4,904 Points 4k badge 2x thumb
I'm sticking with my Quicken 2016 and will enter transactions manually. 
I'm sticking with Q2015 which sunsets in a year. I've also developed a LibreOffice spreadsheet that's intended to supplant Quicken after that.

It won't have all the historical information that Quicken provides. After all I'm not implementing a database. It also won't download banking transactions. I can live without that too.

My main requirement is investment management. My spreadsheet allows me to record all of our assets, download NAVs via Yahoo, breaks everything down by asset class, etc. It also tracks ACBs, adjusted for FX, RoC, RD, etc. (that's actually more accurate than what Quicken does.) This approach isn't for everyone, but it works for me. It also obviates the need to look for alternative software products.

I intend to use both QW15 and my spreadsheet in parallel over the next year in order to double check my calculations. So far, so good. Then once QW15 sunsets I intend to ditch it for good. As a result any "victory" that Quicken/H.I.G. expected in intimidating me to the subscription model and locking my data to read-only will be entirely Pyrrhic.

I'd been thinking about doing this for several years now because of the slow but steady decline in the quality of Quicken software. Until now it was always on my to-do list, always superceded by higher-priority projects. Thank you Quicken/H.I.G. for now applying enough inertial force to finally spur me into action.
Photo of Jonathan

Jonathan

  • 278 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
Glad I found this thread. I won't be upgrading. I'll stick with my 2014 edition and manually enter transactions. I won't entrust my 20+ years of data to the fate of a company that may or may not stay around and if the latter occurs I won't be able to continue to use the product. What a short sighted approach. This may very well kill Quicken!

A couple of questions: can you import data while being disconnected from their servers? I thought I tried that when being forced to upgrade from 2010 to 2014 a couple of years ago and it wouldn't import. I probably tried a qfx file. Can you import qif but not qfx? That would be a reasonable compromise for me.

Secondly, I use quicken's tags extensively and need a replacement product that has that capability. Anyone know of other products that have that?
Photo of gmalis1

gmalis1, SuperUser

  • 140,972 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
Jonathan...search on this community for "import qif".  It involves either importing to a cash account in Quicken and then copy/paste to the proper accounts...or changing the header of the .qif file to contain the proper account format.  It's not difficult to do.

There are several threads that describe how to do it.  Also, a Google search will show you as well.  

There are also other ways to convert an .ofx/.qfx file TO .qif (and .csv, for that matter) (there's a free software that will do that).

There's also a software by one of the Quicken superusers that will convert a .qfx file, convert it to .qif, format the header AND format the fields.  Do a Google Search for ImportQIF.

As to stock prices, you can download the shareware Netstock...which will update prices daily and then create a file you can very easily import into Quicken.
Photo of Gena

Gena

  • 526 Points 500 badge 2x thumb
My 2 cents:
I am one of the minority (surely in part because I teach computer science at a university) who puts NOTHING in the cloud (though some stuff likely floats around, but not with my knowledge). So I was dismayed already with the previous versions of Quicken that would not work unless one signed in. All I want from Quicken is to be able do download data from my bank accounts in the appropriate places, the rest I can deal with. Paying 90$/year (plus taxes) for something whose functionality I use for perhaps 25% is too much. I pay for Adobe, because I use it. I would not subscribe to the full MS Office, I only use Word and Excel (and that, in great part, because I am forced to, otherwise there is OpenOffice). I use Firefox and Thunderbird and contribute annually, voluntarily, and I do the same for other freeware I use.
The last version of Quicken I bought cost 88$, and that ought to be for 3 years (though I fear not) like the previous versions. If Quicken drops the price to, say, 36$ a year, I might go for it. Otherwise it looks as if I will simply switch to downloading .csv files and write the scripts I need. In a day or 7 I should have something that does what I need the way I need it.

Is this the case of someone buying a functioning company in order to milk its customers, like the scandalous EpiPen  (at least here the price isn't going up 600% or whatever the EpiPen went up).

Last, but not least, why do we need new versions every year?
Photo of Rocket J Squirrel

Rocket J Squirrel, SuperUser

  • 53,180 Points 50k badge 2x thumb
"Last, but not least, why do we need new versions every year?"

We absolutely don't. Yearly versions have turned out to be a terrible idea, as they introduce more new bugs than they resolve. But this was Intuit's revenue model. I don't think any non-employee knows whether the newly independent Quicken Inc. will continue this policy.

They've already made an improvement by not changing the data file format from QW2016 to QW2017. Intuit never allowed this. But this was counteracted by the uglification of the GUI and the constant introduction of new bugs in each new release of '17.
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 297,570 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
Does anyone get that as far as Quicken Inc is concerned, several of the problems with "yearly updates" goes away when they go to a subscription model?

By being on a subscription model, they get the "constant" money flow they need.
They can release things as they see fit, instead of some yearly deadline.
They only have to support one version of Quicken, not three.
Photo of Bylo Selhi

Bylo Selhi

  • 5,046 Points 5k badge 2x thumb
Does anyone get that as far as Quicken Inc is concerned...
Does anyone at Quicken get that, as far as your customers are concerned, gratuitously forcing access to the user's own data to read-only if/when the subscription lapses is completely, totally and absolutely unacceptable?

You only need to skim this thread to see how badly you're damaging your reputation in the Canadian marketplace. This is just a taste of what will happen if you try this in the US.
Photo of Peculiar_Investor

Peculiar_Investor

  • 2,852 Points 2k badge 2x thumb
The only problem I've seen over the past number of Quicken releases, aka the "yearly updates" is the introduction of new bugs and annoyances such as the Intuit ID. How does that justify the user base forking over cash? If you want the "constant" money flow they need, then earn it the hard way, actually improve the product. In that case I'll happily contribute. 

What new feature/functionality has been introduced since let's say Quicken 2010 that has justified updating? I'd gladly pay up for new features or improved functionality. I realize that's catch-22, but unfortunately Quicken's new owners need to show me -- i.e. fixes for long outstanding bugs, actual new features and improvements, before they should be extending their hand with a subscription model that contains the dreaded "reduced functionality mode" they are proposing.
(Edited)
Photo of Bylo Selhi

Bylo Selhi

  • 5,046 Points 5k badge 2x thumb
If you want the "constant" money flow they need, then earn it the hard way, actually improve the product. In that case I'll happily contribute. 
+1

And "improve" can (should!) include fixing bugs and polishing existing functionality rather than introducing new features.

This is a mature product. There's not much new functionality to add that people actually need. If Quicken/H.I.G. wants to monetize their investment by means of a subscription model then keeping the existing customer base has to be more important than growing it. After all it's far more expensive to generate a new user than it is to keep an existing one. And, to underscore the topic of this thread, you don't have to use tactics like "Reduced Functionality Mode" in order to do it.
Photo of Gena

Gena

  • 526 Points 500 badge 2x thumb
They could actually improve things - as could many other companies, e.g. Microsoft -  by going modular. It would be a lot of work, but offering a very basic version plus add-on modules for more they might be able to get - keep - more customers that do not need all the functionality while getting more money from those for whom it is worthwhile.
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 297,570 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
How does that justify the user base forking over cash

Anyone here of One Step Update?

Let's face it, people on here say "The features you have released are useless to me, I don't want to pay for them."  This is even though these features are exactly what the customer base has requested.  And in fact the same people say that they won't pay for a new version of Quicken because they haven't added the features "they want".

Now mind you the Canadian version hasn't got most of these features because they are US services, but they have got something no other country has got other than the US, support for their country.  And BTW in Quicken 2017 Canadian they got Quicken Mobile.  And yes I saw plenty of complaints on here like "the US version got mobile, why not the Canadian version?".

And here is one more reason you should "fork over the cash".  If Quicken Inc doesn't get the cash flow it needs, it will go out of business.

I have stated from the beginning of this thread, that I believe that Quicken Inc is making a very bad business decision.

In truth most customers will pay the subscription if it means keeping One Step Update working.  There is no need whatsoever to have a "reduced functionality mode".  And that is a VERY damaging policy, even for people that would never actually enter their transactions manually, they don't want to feel "trapped".

People can ignore Quicken Inc's point of view, but they won't.
They are a business, and it is important that they get what they need out of the product.

I personally think that the people at Quicken Inc are doing their best.  Now their best might not be everything the customers want, but changing nothing, and expecting it to be different doesn't make much sense to me.  I was just pointing out that the subscription model can give benefits to both the customer and Quicken Inc provided that it is done right.

People that are going to demonize it because they have this naive notion that they "buy Quicken" when in reality they have been on a 3 year subscription for basically 20 years, should wise up.
Photo of Lanka

Lanka

  • 1,998 Points 1k badge 2x thumb
I agree. I don't mind paying for the service to keep One Step Update working even if this has to be an annual fee or subscription. I understand that the company has to make money to survive. What I object to is the possibility of being trapped into reduced functionality mode if I decide to no longer subscribe to the product at some point.
I totally agree with Lanka.

My download capabilities end on May 31, 2017 and I will not be subscribing under the current conditions.  I will maintain my Quicken records manually until I find a substitute.
Photo of gmalis1

gmalis1, SuperUser

  • 141,500 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
How many times have we heard on this forum that "I'd pay a fee just to keep my current version of Quicken and continue downloading my transactions".

Presumably, that's what Quicken Inc is trying to accomplish.

However, once again, the "reduced functionality mode" is a show stopper right there.  I would never agree to that.

And then, it's also determined by pricing.  If Quicken Premier is $110 on it's site and $60 on Amazon...pricing for a subscription at $75 is NOT a bargain.  And, I doubt it would be $75...most likely more than that based on the Canadian model.  Paying for three years would be $225 in comparison to $60.  Good for Quicken Inc...not so good for the customer.  
Photo of Bylo Selhi

Bylo Selhi

  • 5,046 Points 5k badge 2x thumb
How many times have we heard on this forum that "I'd pay a fee just to keep my current version of Quicken and continue downloading my transactions".
Presumably, that's what Quicken Inc is trying to accomplish.
This depends on what you mean by "current version." Based on the number of bugs not fixed and new ones introduced in recent years for me the "current" version that I'd like to continue with is now several years old. That's because it's more stable than any version I've seen in the most recent several years.

Quicken is telling us that a transition to a subscription model will benefit us because they (Quicken) will only need to maintain a single code base rather than three years' worth. To me, that's for their convenience and cost savings. It doesn't speak to their apparent inability or unwillingness to fix what they're currently shipping.

So to sharpen your comment, "I'd pay a fee just to make [and keep] the "2017" version of Quicken stable and bug-free so that I can continue downloading my transactions reliably. For me this reliability trumps new functionality."

But all this is moot if Quicken is so lacking in confidence of their ability to address these issues that they feel the need to force customers to renew their subscriptions indefinitely by rendering lapsed software essentially unusable even in manual mode.

Quicken needs to first prove to their customers that they can deliver before they can expect us to trust them by locking ourselves into a subscription model from which there's no escape--even if our trust in Quicken proves to be misguided.
Photo of Peculiar_Investor

Peculiar_Investor

  • 2,852 Points 2k badge 2x thumb
Given the change in ownership, I would have thought the prudent course of action would be to build trust with the user base before embarking on bold new plans and models contain or introduce clauses such as "reduced functionality mode". 

My take on most of this discussion is most existing users want to continue using the product and want to see Quicken (the company) be successful. Many of us have a long history with Quicken. But our trust with the new ownership and the new model they've introduce hasn't been earned yet.

We've long ago accepted the Sunset model and its implications, so why wouldn't Quicken take the first step towards the subscription model without the draconian step of implementing the "reduced functionality mode". That's the non-starter issue for me, plain and simple. 
Photo of need.some.name

need.some.name

  • 602 Points 500 badge 2x thumb
Canadian website now asks to fill a survey - it shows up when you navigate to compare versions or buy - feel free to let them know ;) 
Photo of Bylo Selhi

Bylo Selhi

  • 4,844 Points 4k badge 2x thumb
Here's a direct link to the survey Quicken Customer Survey.

There's nothing in the survey that says it's only for Canadians, so those in the US who are concerned that the subscription/ransomware model will soon affect you should feel free to express your opinions in this survey.
(Edited)
Photo of Jonathan

Jonathan

  • 238 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
Thanks for this link.  I provided the following comment on the survey:

Get rid of the subscription model for Quicken.  It's 3 times what I had been paying since I'd upgrade every 3 years to continue to be able to download banking transactions.  But now if I don't keep paying a subscription forever, I'll not be able to add new transactions.  And what if you cease to exist?  Then your servers won't be there for me to add data manually.  I can still do that with my current version.  Because of this ridiculous new policy, I won't be upgrading.  You've lost a 20+ year customer.  Get rid of the policy that locks out new transactions and provide an affordable ability to download transactions, listen to your customer base and fix the many broken things that we've lived with for some time and I'll become a customer once again.
Photo of gmalis1

gmalis1, SuperUser

  • 143,110 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
By "keep my current version and just let me continue to download my transactions", what I meant is that applies to ANY version your were happy with.  That has to do with Quicken's "sunset" policy instituted way back when.  Almost everyone from way back when stated they would be happy to pay an annual fee just to keep the version they were currently happy with and to continue to 

Hardly anyone that posts on here upgrades to a new version because they wanted ANY of the new "features" Quicken has been searching high and low to add to refresh their product in any way possible to make it more "marketable".  

I see occasional users demanding that Quicken Mobile sync actually work because they depend on that feature.  To me, it would be nice IF it worked, but it's so darn unreliable I just gave up.  I don't really need it...that doesn't mean others don't, but is it really worth the aggravation of having to support unhappy users because it is so unreliable?  That's worse public relations than not having a mobile product at all.  

I don't see anyone really clamoring that they HAD to have Zillow integration (which is ridiculous because why can't I just go to Zillow and see the value of my home) nor do I see any kudos because Quicken provides your Credit Score, when I can get my credit score probably 20 different ways without even using Quicken, including through my bank's website, my credit cards websites and CreditKarma, not to mention MyFreeCreditScore.  

So, while these features "might" have been requested to add (which I don't think they were actually requested at all...because as I said, that info is already being provided elsewhere and isn't a "unique" feature to Quicken), they don't add any actual increased value to Quicken.

To me, it just seems like a way for Quicken to justify yet another year version.  Oh, look...we added this...oh look, we refined this...oh look, we changed the color scheme.  This way Quicken can put on their website the "new features and improved existing features" that makes it look like "wow, I have to buy this product because look at all the new stuff".  Well, it's not really new.  It's just a regurgitation of existing data from elsewhere.

And that would probably be all well and good...if it only worked.  

What I would EXPECT Quicken to do with a yearly upgrade is actually add something that knocks my socks off.  For example, Banktivity 6 will allow you to create a "split screen" for side by side looks.  That's a cool feature, whereas you can have an account register open and right next to it have a report that are both independent of each other.  Quicken seems to have no such innovative ideas.  The core functionality hasn't changed in like forever.  Basically, the ONLY big introduction Quicken has had over all the years has been downloading transactions.  Everything else is just fluff.  It all works the same since the very first Windows version, which is rather sad when you think about it.  

So, sure I would have been happy keeping my Quicken 2010 (or whatever earlier version) and just paid a yearly subscription to keep the functionality of downloading my transactions and security prices.  I didn't want a new product.  I don't care about ANY of the new features.  What I do want is downloading capabilities...and a bug free product.

THAT, is what Quicken should have focused on...and presumably what they are attempting to do by eventually having all it's customers who download transactions do...by being on the same version.  And then do maintenance upgrades, without really adding any new features.  

But just keeping the downloading portion active shouldn't justify a hefty subscription price...but Quicken won't care.  They WILL make it significantly more expensive than just purchasing the product every three years.  
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 299,020 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
Well I'm sorry, but I disagree with a lot of what you said gmalis1.

On the features, I have in fact seen basically all of the new features requested on a forum like this or in betas, and such.  Now mind you I don't think that in a lot of cases they are "requested by the majority", much more like a minority.  But Quicken Inc is going to be looking for anything they think will get people to buy, and Quicken is so feature rich, that basically there is almost no feature that is going to "blow your stocks off.".

For instance you talk about viewing the register and a report at the same time.  Quicken can do that!  Turn on pop up registers.

As of the "stay with current version".  That isn't done because that would fragment the support even more.  People think of their version is "unchanging".  That might be true, but it isn't true of the rest of the world.  And it is that "unchanging" that can bite you.  What if Intuit said "I'm never going to change an Express Web Connect script that is working, after all if it is working it should continue to work.  The rest of the world just needs to make sure that they are always 'backwards' compatible."

Quicken Inc has a hard enough time trying to keep the versions that it does support working.  Given the nature of Quicken users if they were allowed to use any version of Quicken they liked, some would still be trying to use the DOS version.  And the customer base would be spread out over more than 30 year versions of Quicken, not to mention Canadian, and lets throw in all the foreign versions too.

This just isn't possible.
Photo of gmalis1

gmalis1, SuperUser

  • 143,110 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
And that's the basis, in theory, behind having everyone get to the same version.  Then everyone will be happy as a clam because they can keep their Quicken and just pay to keep renewing downloading capabilities.

But that's in theory.  

Once Quicken Inc has you locked into their subscription, there is NO incentive on their part to actually ADD anything to Quicken...to actually have some significant change, to add even more features (what they could be, I can't fathom as Quicken is pretty maxed out already and they're grasping at straws trying to find anything new to add).

So, we will all be paying more than three times the full price for software that still works pretty much the same with the capability to continue downloading.  From a support/financial standpoint, this is a major win for Quicken.  They'll have it's users locked in, they can't add any transactions if they don't resubscribe and they basically don't have to do anything except keep the servers up and running and change the tax schedules as that changes in future years.  

Once again, it's the reduced functionality mode (ie frozen data set) and the anticipated pricing that will be the demise of Quicken.  

It's a shame, because if they priced this right I could see this model being successful.  But they won't.  The capital investors want an immediate return on their investment.  And after that immediate return and whatever they can milk out of us for the rest, Quicken, at best, will just be a maintenance product with a hefty price tag.  And say they will discount pricing to existing users and to renewals, it'll still be way more than $20 a year ($60 for three years currently).  

And I still stand by my previous statement:  within five years Quicken Inc will be bankrupt and out of business.  And we'll have locked out data.  
Photo of Kej Bell

Kej Bell

  • 180 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
Wow- I have been a huge fan of Quicken for almost 20 years now- but I guess it's over. I am looking for a competitive product to migrate to. This is absolutely ridiculous. Just a huge rip-off- especially disabling the ability to manually add transactions if your subscription ever lapses. I can just see the subscription fees going up year over year- just because they can get away with it. Good-bye Quicken- it was fun while it lasted, but I do not like being played for a chump.
Photo of Claude Vidal

Claude Vidal

  • 122 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
I haven't read through all replies, but enough to realize this 'subscription' thing is very emotional.  And it should be.  It seems the new Quicken owners know how to rip more $$ from customers.  In a capitalist world, perhaps unfortunately at times, it's part of the game.

In the end, the owner's tactic will work IF enough customers buy in.

If only Quicken (Canada) had been properly maintained, if only more productive features had been introduced over the years, if only the old Intuit hadn't started rendering versions obsolete after 3 years or so, if only I wasn't so annoyed how slow Quicken is on an Intel i7 PC, if only...  So, am I upgrading to 2017 you think?  Not under the current subscription approach, or at least its pricing.

I paid 40$ CDN for 2016 and I have been upgrading every 3 years since 1993.  Offer me a subscription for 15$ CDN/year and I'll consider, but even then I need to see real improvements.  Keep it at 40$/year and I'll go back to Excel if I have to, by principle.
Photo of Steven Campos

Steven Campos

  • 360 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
We can complain all we want about Quicken changing to a subscription model but it will do NO good.  Their minds are already made up even if all of us long time users start running for the exits, there will be people out there that will simply pay the money because a viable alternative has not emerged yet. Our comments and their reply by Quicken is proof that the subscription is on it way to U.S. users whether we like it or not. They know that their competition is non-existent and we will be treated like a source of ENDLESS income. 

Quicken doesn't monitor the forums for problems that need fixing. I have used Quicken since version 3 for DOS and the bugs just multiply and NEVER get fixed. I have complained about several and they are still there after 6 versions. Currently on QW2016 and had to back out the latest update as ALL linked cash accounts for brokerage accounts, had the downloaded transactions disappear from the bottom of the register. There is a red flag indicating that I have downloaded transactions but they can't be reviewed.  Any attempt to do an update is met with "You must first review and accept downloaded transaction before you can apply the update"???? I can't see those transactions!!!!! This bug was fixed in QW2015 but reintroduced in QW2016 R6.

As a retired Systems Analyst this reintroduction of fixed bugs is inexcusable!!!  

When my QW2016 stops downloading transactions I WILL do manual entry and never upgrade to a new version. The forcing people to buy a new version every 3-4 years was bad enough but turning off data entry when you don't pay is called RAMSOM!!!!  
Photo of Gena

Gena

  • 526 Points 500 badge 2x thumb
It seems to me that there really are only two things people here wish would happen to the yearly subscription:

1. Lower the price.
2. Do not shut down the functionality at expiration.

The rest is like cooking, everyone has their own recipe, gripe or suggestion. Mine is that I do not need most of the features, especially anything mobile. And I certainly do not want Quicken (or anyone else) to hold my data on their servers.( Both these features make identity theft so much easier. ) And I really hate to have sign into my Quicken account before I can download my data.

Many point out the business model and the fact that Quicken needs to make money. That is true, and I see why a subscription is a good model for a business. But trying essentially to triple their revenue in one shot (one year costs as much as three years used to) is unjustified and should result in many users leaving.  Current business practices of not only Quicken seem to put the company profit before customer satisfaction, and that ought to backfire one day (unless the dumbing of the consumer continues).

(OK, I now put in 6 cents)
Photo of smayer97

smayer97, SuperUser

  • 162,430 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
Again, for those interested, here is a summary of all the key issues discussed in this thread.

(If you find this reply helpful, please be sure to click "Like", so others will know, thanks.)
Photo of jacobs

jacobs, SuperUser

  • 60,236 Points 50k badge 2x thumb
Gena, I think your comments are on target, except for the mention of Quicken storing user dat on their servers. That is NOT part of the planned subscription program. (Depending what method you use to connect to your financial institutions, some of your data may be stored on a Quicken server temporarily until you connect and download it -- but this is the way it has worked for many, many years.)
Photo of Gena

Gena

  • 526 Points 500 badge 2x thumb
I misunderstood then, sorry. I am glad that it is not a part of the plan.
See also my post in thread of https://getsatisfaction.com/quickencommunity/topics/quicken-inc-should-reverse-its-decision-to-chang... (smayer97 above).
Photo of Cheryl Desnoyer

Cheryl Desnoyer

  • 194 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
I was about to purchase the subscription (I'm in Canada, so that is the only choice).  I work in IT, and recognize the issues with supporting multiple versions of software, so I have sympathy with the idea of charging support ("subscription") which ensures that people keep up-to-date.  
(The concept of paying for a subscription to go to the front of the line for support calls is pretty stupid, though...  if the only option is a subscription, and everyone goes to the front of the line, well.....)
I took care to confirm that,even though it is a subscription, my data would not be in "the cloud". Then I noticed the part about being unable to make manual updates if your subscription has expired.  
Excuse me??  I can understand not being able to connect to financial institutions, or get any bug fixes, but to intentionally prevent me from using my personal financial information??  
That's pretty vicious!
Not quite sure what to do now, but I have not purchased the subscription, and connections to the bank will be dead in just over a month.  Gee.. thanks...  
Photo of mshiggins

mshiggins, SuperUser

  • 324,464 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
There have been recommendations for other personal finance applications here in this discussion and elswhere on this forum. Another alternative is to continue using your current version in manual mode.

No matter which route you choose, I recommend sending off a polite but firm email or letter to Eric Dunn telling him you are unhappy about this change and why.

And lastly, be sure you vote up this discussion by clicking the Vote button in the topmost post in the thread.
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 297,640 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
@Cheryl Desnoyer I would point out there might be a "middle ground", especially for Canadian users, besides what Ms. Higgins has suggested.

Quicken Windows Canadian allows QIF imports and they don't expire like QFX imports.  And the reason I said "especially for Canadian users" is because they don't have Direct Connect, and Express Web Connect has only been around for a few years for them, and isn't supported by many financial institutions.  As such most Quicken Windows Canadian users are downloading and importing QFX files anyways.  And if QIF files aren't available there are converters.
https://getsatisfaction.com/quickencommunity/topics/faq-is-there-a-faq-listing
(Edited)
Photo of Gena

Gena

  • 526 Points 500 badge 2x thumb
Yes. BUT... this is a recurring problem with software: we find a workaround. The real question is, why should we?

I will, if and when I have the time (and therein lies my problem) see what alternatives are available and then write to banks to ask they support them. Come to think of it, it could be to their advantage to put down some money and develop their own (common!) system.

In fact, here is an idea: we could start a petition on, say, change.org asking that banks support software other than Quicken. A few  (tens of?) thousand signatures could help. Does anyone think this could help? I am not sure...

(10 cents)
Photo of Bylo Selhi

Bylo Selhi

  • 5,076 Points 5k badge 2x thumb
here is an idea: ... that banks support software other than Quicken. 
They already do. For example...

Scotiabank supports Quicken, Quickbooks, MS Money, MS Excel, Simply Accounting, ASCII [CSV?] and QIF.

TD/CT supports Quicken, Quickbooks, MS Money,  Simply Accounting, and CSV. 
Photo of QPW

QPW

  • 297,640 Points 100k badge 2x thumb
In fact, here is an idea: we could start a petition
That will be quite a petition, given that there are over 35,000 financial institutions in the US alone.

Bigger powers have tried and basically failed.

The OFX standard was created for this very purpose.  Who was pushing it?
Intuit, Microsoft, Check Free, "financial institutions".
QFX is Quicken's variation on it.  "MS Money" is in fact OFX.

And I should point out that what people want isn't "file format", it is a full protocol so that this process can be automated.
The QFX and OFX (MS Money) files are simply the "response" part of the protocol.
As in client requests transactions, and the response is what you would see in those files.

Several of the "little guys" if they do automatic downloading they use OFX.  Or they are now getting into also using one of the "aggregator" services.  Aggregators are Intuit's Express Web Connect, and Mint.  There is also ones like Personal Capitol, and there are a few out there that some one could pay for their service like: Yodlee, Plaid and Kontomatik.

How many adopted OFX/QFX?
I don't have the numbers for OFX in general, but here is for QFX/Quicken.
About 4,500 at its peak.
How many support it now?
About 2,500.

Note that "aggregators" aren't totally without any kind of agreements on what should be sent and what should be received, but without an over all standard, there can be a different "protocol/script" for basically all of them.  In practice it is more like most are covered by service providers that do this for the financial institutions, and then the aggregator works out something with each of those.  But they all seem to be restricted by the financial institution's login methods.  Because when they change that it seems that break them a lot of times.

Basically I think without the government mandating some system I doubt that you will ever get agreement by the all financial institutions to do anything.