Bitcoin holdings tracking

Hi, would there be any chance to add bitcoins or similar e.g. Litecoins to your tool for tracking purchases of coins for the buy price and therefore tracking the loss or profit based on real time exchange information in which there are plenty of online API's for this. I am asking as i love your tool being my investment overview and i clearly see my purchase of bitcoins as also an investment that goes up and down like gold and shares etc.. keen to hear a candid (your real thoughts about this idea) reply rather than just a 'not in scope' type reply/response. I think there is real merit to such a product request and think there will be alot of other people that would also be interested in this. thanks
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  • opps this should have been an idea and not a question. Can you please change? I dont seem to be able to.

    thanks
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  • Hi John,

    Thanks for your post. I've changed this to an idea versus a question. This way other Sharesight clients can weigh in as well. Bitcoin has been coming up in conversation more and more. To be honest, the queries we've received centre on Sharesight taking Bitcoin as payment versus tracking it from a currency investment standpoint.

    Let's leave this out there as an idea and see what sort of response it gets. I'll also put this out on social media and various LinkedIn groups to gauge what other industry peers are doing about Bitcoin tracking.

    You mentioned APIs. Can you share the names of some providers? If it's an easy API connection, that's even better.

    To be frank, it's not on our development roadmap. But, you've got me thinking that offering a Bitcoin tracking service might attract new Sharesight clients....

    Cheers,

    Doug
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    Hi Doug,

    thanks for the reply and updating to an idea. Lets see what interest maybe out there.

    Exchange rates can be seen on this page: https://bitpay.com/bitcoin-exchange-r... look fo rthis text "The BBB is available via JSON API at https://bitpay.com/api/rates. Rates are updated every 1 minute." for the JSON link.

    I would love to see this tracked in my sharesight account in the future and think it would offer a really profound, bleeding edge piece of new functionality for you guys that would probably even get media attention which would lead to alot more customers for you guys. All we wold need is to just add how many bitcoins we bought and for what cost. Then you do your P/L against the current exchange rates and done.

    Feel free to contact me if you would like to discuss this any further.

    thanks
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  • hi, any update on this? are you guys willing to take a look into it?

    Cheers
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    I am also interested in seeing this capability included in Sharesight (i.e. tracking BitCoin as an investment holding) - any news?
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  • Hi Adrian,

    Thanks for your post. To answer your question the ability for tracing BitCoin is not on the roadmap at this time.

    I apologise for the inconvenience!

    cheers,

    Emma
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    how about now bitcoin in 2017? come on guys you can track cash investments, managed funds, shares..... Crypto currencies should be given the attention they deserve - they are even being taxed by the ATO so they must legitimate investments if the Australian Goverment thinks so. What is the problem?
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  • I'd like to throw my support behind this request too.

    As a work-around, I have been tracking my BTC holdings with ShareSight by adding a "Custom Holding", and using uploading a CSV of the bitcoin price history sourced from:
    http://www.coindesk.com/price/#2015-0...

    There are a few limitations with this approach though - I haven't tracked all my trades, just current hodlings, and have used an average buy price over all trades.

    Also, ShareSight's holdings "Quantity" field must be a complete integer. It cannot be a decimal value, so you'll need to round up/down as appropriate.

    Have a look at http://CoinTracking.info for a really good way to track all your BTC trades and holdings.
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    Again this would be good to get into Sharesight. I really treat my Bitcoin holdings as an investment and you cannot deny the legitimacy of Bitcoin any longer. I think you have demand for this feature and if you add it, it will most definitely put you ahead of your competition.

    @Tim, I also tried your workaround, but at the end of the day this sucks due to the reasons you mention. Whole numbers etc..having to work with Satoshi units and just having to manually manage a CSV and of course having no real time trading value of Bitcoin.

    Sharesight, please consider adding this.
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  • I'm keen to see this feature too. I've just started investing in this type of new currency and would love to track it as part of my investment portfolio here.
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    Please just add this as a currency option - ETH and BTC then we can track it as fixed asset like currency as documented here - https://help.sharesight.com/nz/tracki...
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  • Sharesight team - a simple feature request would make a huge difference here.

    Please consider allowing decimal values in a holding's "Quantity" field, rather than requiring a complete integer only.

    Allowing fractional holding quantities will allow more accurate Crypto asset holdings, albeit still needing to manually import prices.
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    • outstanding..keep it up and I cannot wait until I can real time track my crypto value and performance.
    • Hi Ben, thanks for the update!
      Tim
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  • Hi ben, this is a positive move.you can't ignore bitcoin any longer as any sort of level investor.
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  • Hi John (and all others interested in bitcoin tracking!)

    You'll be pleased to hear we introduced our first cut (beta) at tracking bitcoin and in fact all foreign currency cash accounts today.

    Here's how it works for Bitcoin:

    1. Add a new holding searching on Bitcoin or 'XBT'
    2. Enter the quantity of Bitcoin you own, exchange rate at time of purchase and purchase date
    3. Save the trade

    Here is a screenshot showing my return should I have been so lucky to purchase 10 bitcoin back in 2000 - note, we've gone with coindesk for our rates:



    We also now allow you to easily track against all the major currencies, by simply searching for eg 'Pounds Sterling' or GBP and adding a quantity of pounds purchased.

    We've got a few additional features lined up in this space, so I'm really interested in some initial feedback on this feature. Please post on this topic any thoughts you have!

    Regards
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    • Hi Tim,

      I really appreciate the quick feedback. I'll take your comments back to the team.

      Interestingly, we had several conversations about Bitcoin as a currency as opposed to an equity and settled on the idea that it really was just like any other currency, well, apart from the decentralized nature of it etc

      However, what you say makes perfect sense. I'll see what others internally here say about that.

      As for being fixed to AUD, what we actually do is convert your bitcoin using the exchange rate of your portfolio. So if you've got a USD portfolio, you will see a different exchange rate for example to those with an AUD portfolio.

      As long as you have the bitcoin quantity purchased and the date, our exchange rate feed should give you a pretty fair indication of your return assuming you bought at close to the market value at the time.

      Thanks again for your comments.
      Ben
    • Hi Ben, I am really happy to see this beta up and running. All the comments from others make sense and are completely relevant to my situation also. I would like to however, see other crypto coins supported esp. Ethereum as my biggest request.
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  • Hi Ben, I had a bit of a thought about treating BTC as Equity vs Currency - Why not both?

    Is there anything stopping you guys from adding it as both a currency and an equity to allow the user to make the choice how they want to track their holdings?

    There's valid arguments for both, with the equity points already being raised above.

    I think a very powerful argument for "Currency" is that it may (hopefully?) allow us to track trades between Crypto currencies, such as a direct Bitcoin:Ethereum trade.

    Just an idea :)

    Tim
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  • Hi Tim,

    After a brief chat with the team here, we think in most respects we are treating Bitcoin no differently from an equity in terms of being able to add multiple trades and how we lay out the holding overview for the Bitcoin holding.

    Would you agree that the main difference really comes down to whether we can allow entry of an exchange rate, or entry of a price?

    Currently on the trade form we take bitcoin quantity and divide by the exchange rate, but we could just as easily have laid out the form to capture the bitcoin quantity and times by the trade price.

    The overall result would be the same.

    Our current form:


    If you simply take the Bitcoin quantity and the price you paid for each trade, you will have the 'exchange rate' for each trade - although this does assume that all purchases were in your portfolio currency which I realize doesn't quite fit your scenario given your USD trades.

    If you agree that the distinction between Equity vs Currency is really just around capturing exchange rate vs trade price, I'll chat with the team and see if we can come up with something that would allow you to choose either option.
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  • Hi Ben,

    This is excellent thanks very much for putting this in. Coinbase has 7.4 million users and supports Bitcoin, Ethereum and Litecoin - would you consider adding those other two digital currencies into the system?

    Gary
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  • Hi Ben,
    Thanks for the feedback.

    I'm not sure how sharesight internally treats different types of holdings, but from a user experience they appear very different.

    From my testing, the main features missing from a currency-centric view are:

    * While the maths are correct, the Exchange rate doesn't represent anything familiar.
    * Not able to set purchase currency or exchange rate
    * Not able to track capital gains vs currency gains for purchases in other fiat currencies.
    * Not able to see the current price per coin on the holdings page.

    Here's a picture of what it looks like when I add bitcoin as a custom investment. Note that I've already manually uploaded the price history from coinbase earlier.



    Hope this helps frame the use case better. I'm more than happy to have an offline conversation or help test any Dev or alpha features.

    Regards,
    Tim
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    Hi Tim,

    I was the developer on this feature.

    We treat Bitcoin like a currency, which allows you to track its value in any other currency such as AUD, rather than something (like a US equity) that is naturally priced in USD. So the concept of a separate share price and exchange rate doesn't really apply - we track the market price for XBT against all common currencies - we call this an exchange rate, but you could think of it as an instrument price if you wish.

    In general, Sharesight tracks investments in the users choice of 'home' currency, be that USD, AUD or anything else. That generally matches both investment goals of making a return in one's home currency and reporting needs to produce a tax return in that local currency.

    If you want to see Bitcoin performance against USD (or e.g. CNY, EUR) then just create a separate portfolio with a US country and track your holding there. You'll then also be able to see the XBT/USD price on the holding page.

    --
    Richard
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  • 3
    Hi Richard,
    Thanks for taking the time to register and reply, very much appreciated.
    Thanks also for your work on the Bitcoin feature, it's a huge leap forward! :)

    I understand why ShareSight has chosen to handle Bitcoin like a currency for the beta and for some investors that may suitable.
    It certainly makes sense to treat it as a currency when there is no "home" currency with which you can anchor it with.

    Unfortunately, only treating Bitcoin as a currency loses several important features of Sharesight and makes it very difficult to track in any meaningful way.

    Is there an option for Sharesight to also allow a user to track Bitcoin as an equity, anchored against the Bitcoin currency values?

    Exhibit A - Two examples of 10BTC holdings, Purchased 01 Nov 2013.
    The top line (BTC.OTH) is my custom holding purchased in USD.
    The bottom line (XBT.FX) uses your Bitcoin currency tracking.



    IMHO, there's two major benefits that my custom holding has over the Currency holding:
    1) I see the Current price per Bitcoin, not just a useless XBT1.000.
    2) I see Bitcoin's capital gain and the AUD:USD Currency gain separately.

    The only thing missing in this custom instrument is the ability to define decimal portions of an instrument. e.g. I can't add a trade for 10.5555 bitcoins.

    Exhibit B - Holding details, Bitcoin as a "Share".

    This first one shows my BTC.OTH custom holding. Note the current BTC price is shown in a known format, plus the ability to set the US$ exchange rate in the transaction.



    Additionally, if I decided to ever purchase Bitcoin in AUD, I could add another holding to my existing screen without needing to create a whole new portfolio.

    Exhibit C - Holding details, Bitcoin as a "Currency".

    The two big deficiencies here are the lack of any familiar price information and no ability to set an alternative trading currency (e.g. USD).


    In summary, I understand the value of presenting Bitcoin as a currency, but it just doesn't work well for (what I would assume is) the typical Bitcoin holder's situation.

    The ideal scenario (for me at least) would be to have the ability to track Bitcoin as an equity (against Bitcoin as a currency if necessary) with decimal portions of a quantity.

    Hope this makes sense. Happy to discuss as needed.

    Regards,
    Tim
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  • I love the idea of tracking foreign currency this way (not Bitcoin in my case).

    I set up a test portfolio to check it out. The capital gains report suggested my FX:USD would have made a nice gain between 2013 and now, but it suggests I can get a 50% discount on the capital gain for taxation while my accountant says otherwise...
    • Hi Hamish,

      It's my general understanding that the discount rules apply for individuals capital gains where the 'asset' was acquired at least 12 months before the cgt event , I guess in your case the disposal of your USD currency is the cgt event.

      I know there are a number of exclusions to the discount rules, including one relating to certain forex realisation gains, I believe called CGT event K10.

      However it's my understanding that the CGT event K10 exclusion is for a fairly narrow type of foreign realisation - specifically ceasing to have a 'right' to receive foreign currency' as a opposed to the more standard disposal of foreign currency.

      A standard disposal of foreign currency I believe is subject to a cgt discount.

      However, I'm not an accountant and I would of course defer to your accountants advice.

      Our reports are to assist with making your life a bit easier at tax time, but we certain don't try to pretend that our reports are suitable in every situation.

      Perhaps it would be worth finding out from your accountant on what basis your foreign gains are not included in the discount rules.

      If you gain any insights into this area, please feel free to share on this forum topic.
    • Thanks for your reply Ben. In my case I have disposed of shares and received USD in exchange, which I have then held (for years in some cases) before exchanging these for AUD. The rules as published on the ATO web site are almost impossible to understand for the general public IMHO.

      I will seek further advice.
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    Hi Sharesight team!

    I 100% agree with what Tim U reported above: there should be an option to track Bitcoin as equity and not currency.
    Tim perfectly explained why so I won't add to that topic :)

    I also have two other issues with the current Bitcoin implementation:

    1. the current decimal precision (0.000 I believe) is not sufficient to accurately track Bitcoin holdings. Sharesight should allow for 8 decimal places.

    2. There's no simple way to track send/transfer transactions. It's important to have a way to track this because fees associated with these transfers must reduce the cost base accordingly.

    Because of these shortcomings, I had to go back to using my previous tool to track Bitcoin holdings. I would much prefer having everything into Sharesight :)

    Anyway, thanks again for working on this!
    I guess what makes it extra difficult is that tracking cryptocurrencies performance is not a solved problem yet. Or at least I don't know of any software that does it well...
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  • Bitcoins? Crypto-currencies?
    Why haven't you added Tulip Bulbs???
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    There are 180 (real) currencies in the world.
    As of today (29 November 2017) there are 1324 crypto-mania-currencies.
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  • Hi All,

    We have just released a small change to our beta FX and Bitcoin feature.

    You will now see on the portfolio overview and performance report that the price displayed is now showing the cost per unit to acquire in your portfolio currency.

    So for example, on the overview in my New Zealand portfolio, I'm now seeing the cost of 1 bitcoin as $14,092.702.

    We are continuing to work on other improvements to the bitcoin feature.
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  • I am playing with this - but I wonder if you have any other codes we can use? I get that you are using XBT instead of BTC for Bitcoin.. but what about ETH and XRP? do you have access to their pricing? I use www.coingecko.com/en to get my crypto pricing?
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  • Hi All,

    Here's an early look at our revamped trade form for Bitcoin. We will now show the unit price in your portfolio currency as a default. Below is the re-worked form as it exists in our testing environment



    But we will also allow for other combinations. In the example below, I have an Australian portfolio, but I want to enter my trade in USD. We will now allow you to do this.

    You can see we show the XBT/USD rate of 16889.6, but we also show what the converted rate is back to AUD $22032.7. This converted rate will be the actual rate we store. (Ignore the actual price values displayed, our test data isn't up-to-date!).

    This feature update will not fully address all of the requests made on this forum topic, but it certainly provides a lot more flexibility than our existing solution.



    I will update this topic when we release the feature update, most likely in mid January.

    I hope you all enjoy the holiday break!
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  • Hi Ben, thanks for the update. That looks like a huge improvement over the first release, we'll done!

    Just one question please. You mentioned: "This converted rate will be the actual rate we store" .
    Does this mean that we will not have the ability to track currency gains/losses for trades in foreign currencies?

    Thanks again, and have a merry Christmas.

    Tim
    • That's right Tim. Unfortunately that is the one remaining aspect raised on this topic that we are not in a position to tackle for Bitcoin or the other Crypto currencies we will be supporting soon.

      This update only impacts on the trade form itself and does not affect how we show performance for bitcoin.

      After this feature update, you will continue to see all of your performance under 'Currency Gains'.
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  • Sharesight + Coinigy integration would be real nice!
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  • Hi All,

    We have just released our changes to the trade form for bitcoin.

    You can now enter your bitcoin in any denomination we support an exchange rate for, but we will always display the value converted back into your portfolio currency.

    Here's an example of an Australian portfolio where I've decided to enter the bitcoin unit price in USD:



    We've introduced a variety of other little feature updates at the same time, for example we now show your brokerage converted back into your portfolio currency and allow you to enter your bitcoin in XBT, mXBT or uXBT.

    I hope you find these changes useful!
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    • Excellent! thank you... do you need any users to test?
    • Hi Linda,

      We only have Ethereum in test at the moment, but are working to roll out new crypto's into test over the next few days.

      I will post an update in the next week or so and would very much like feedback at that stage on the new exchange rate feed.

      After we've received feedback and are confident the feature is stable, we will then look to remove our beta label.
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    Great, a step in the right direction!

    An API link to Coinspot would be great, I have completely lost track of what has been profitable and not, over a 100 trades into and out of various crypto, far too much work to transpose into excel.

    There does not appear to be any good crypto tracking solutions out there at this point in time.
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  • Great!!!
    I was using Coingecko for pricing, now also using BTC Markets..but I am not trading, just buy and hold... so a simple spreadsheet doing it for me...but will definitely add them to Sharesight once I can put in the other cryptos as well as BTC.
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  • Hi Ben & Team,
    The input screen is definitely a huge improvement over the first release.
    This is very very close to perfect!

    The only two things missing are:
    1) the "Capital Gain" vs "Currency Gain" value of the holding
    2) the ability to input a specific exchange rate value

    Thanks for the update and keep up the good work.

    Regards,
    Tim
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  • Hi All,

    We have just gone live with a major update to our foreign exchange and crypto features.

    Among other things, we now support the following cryptos in addition to Bitcoin:
    ETH - Ethereum
    XRP - Ripple
    LTC - Litecoin
    XLM - Stellar
    DAS - Dash
    XMR- Monero
    BTS - Bitshare

    We will keep our beta flag on in the meantime, so please post on this topic any inconsistencies you spot with any of these currencies.

    We will post a general announcement outlining our exchange rate improvements in the next several days, but I thought that some of you may like to jump in sooner and check out these new crypto currencies.
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  • Hi, having trouble merging ETH from custom investment as its not a stock and doesn't show up under ASX or the Funds as described when following the "move to a listed instrument" instructions
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  • 2
    I inappropriately added a new topic for my feedback. Copying it here.

    I very much appreciate the effort the team have gone to in creating the new cryptoasset tracking functionality as described at.

    https://www.sharesight.com/blog/track...

    I had a play with this and have some small items of feedback for you.

    First the praise:
    I really like how you have integrated with Open Exchange Rates for reasonably live data. That functionality is a must and you have done well. Getting dollar equivalent values for cryptoassets seems a black art, with systems spewing out all kinds of different answers. Your approach seems a good one. I know many will complain about pricing discrepancies, but hey that happens in EVERY system related to crypto.

    Now for a couple of minor improvement suggestions:
    1) When manually adding a new holding, I could not find AUD under brokerage. That would be a nice thing to add to the drop-down list.

    2) I used the import from file process to import those coins that the system supports. I used the template csv file exactly as it is but found the buy price for my cryptoassets did not import. But fortunately I could specify AUD brokerage which was a nice work around for that not being supported on the manual entry page.

    3) Working with cryptoassets has other expenses that would be nice to incorporate. e.g. the real cost of moving assets between wallets. Just probably need another entry similar to brokerage for this. Maybe just call it "Other Costs" with a help bubble stating it is associated with wallet movements and the such. Or users could simply incorporate this into the sell brokerage. That's probably OK.

    Other than the above, and not supporting a number of other cryptos that I own, the new functionality seems to work splendidly.

    Good Job.

    4) If you have some prioritized order in adding cryptoassets I'd suggest concentrating on the top 10 or 20 by market cap. All except Bitshare come from that bunch in your current offering.

    I'd specifically love to see support added for ADA (Cardano), BCH (Bitcoin Cash), ETC (Etherium Classic), SALT, OMG (OmnisGo), BCN (Bytecoin), REP (Augur), TRX (Tron), EOS, Neo, DODGE (Dodgecoin) and MIOTA (Miniota).
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    What's the chance of adding a new market type of cryptoassets so this isn't hidden under FX?

    Although being under FX may be fine also. Just might be easier to find that's all.
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  • I’m happy
    Thanks for your efforts guys! I agree with Darren Munn that you dont appear to be able to move crypto assets created under Other into the new feature as described in the newsletter - I had to create again from scratch then delete what I had setup under Other... I also agree that when setting up manually, there is no AUD brokerage option - so I saved it with USD - but then when I went to back into the entry via Edit - I was then able to select AUD brokerage?

    keep up the great work!

    loving the new Cash Account feature as well! cheers
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  • I was very excited to see support for Crypto (great work !) but then unfortunately disappointed to find that you weren't supporting BCH (Bitcoin Cash) yet. Please add !
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  • Hi All,

    I'll investigate the missing AUD option under brokerage a few of you have mentioned and post an update when I know more.
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  • Hi All,

    A couple of updates regarding our crypto tracking:

    1. We've fixed the issue with your portfolio currency not appearing in the brokerage dropdown. Thanks to all those who drew this issue to our attention.

    2. The feature that allows you to shift a custom investment to a listed instrument is not available for crypto currencies. An alternative would be to use the all trades report to download the trades from your crypto custom investment and then upload this file via our bulk importer.
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  • Hi Ben, thanks for adding bitcoin accounting to Sharesight. I've been importing trades from CSV files. Mostly, this works okay after I re-titled some of the column headings to be in accord with your template. The main problem that I am having is with the exchange rate column. Sharesight assumes that the exchange rate (on CSV import) is in units of AUD/XBT. For large values of XBT, this number gets very small! I.e., for XBT = $18,000, the exchange rate = 0.0000555 (or 5.55E-5). This causes issues with precision and some very small numbers are imported with scientific notation and these are not interpreted properly by the Sharesight import tool. Would it be possible to specify the units for the exchange rate in the CSV file for import? XBT/AUD would be a preferable alternative to AUD/XBT!
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    • Ah, I'm glad to read that the website can hand 10 decimal places now. That should sort out problems with precision. However, it CSV input tool still seems to stumble over very small numbers. These are converted to scientific notation and then interpreted incorrectly. Will you update the import process to interpret these correctly? Otherwise, there is a long road of manual correction ahead for me (and other users of Sharesight)!
    • Hi again, Ben. Are you able to correct the import process to handle small numbers automatically? I really don't want to deal with a long list of manual corrections!
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  • Hi again, Ben. Are you able to correct the import process to handle small numbers automatically? I really don't want to deal with a long list of manual corrections!
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  • Hi Ben, have you been able to fix the CSV import function for XBT (bitcoin)? I had to manually correct many imported transactions yesterday. The incorrect handling of small numbers is a pain. Let's get the automated functions right.
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