How do I deal to Forager Australian Shares listing?

Today Forager Australian Shares converted from an unlisted managed fund to a Listed Investment Trust. I'm currently tracking it in the managed fund section, but need to move it to the Shares section. Is there a way to do this without recording a buy and sell in Sharesight?
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  • Great question, I was looking into this myself. I did try and export all trades and then try to re-import. However, it does not like importing decimals, only whole numbers. So I'm a bit stuffed. Also, I can't simply enter the latest price, which would be the simplest solution
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  • 1
    Hi all,

    Thanks for your messages! We're currently investigating if we can automate this change for you in your portfolio. I will update you as soon as I've heard back from the technical team.

    Thanks in advance for your patience!

    Cheers,

    Emma
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  • Hi there!

    We're still investigating the options with the Forager issue at this time. I will respond to you as soon as I've heard back from our technical team.

    Thanks for your patience!

    Cheers,

    Emma
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  • Dear clients,

    Thank you for your patience. Unfortunately, the Forager fund and LIC could not be merged in our database. We apologise for the inconvenience, the fund and holding are so different in nature we could not safely merge them for you.

    Please follow these steps to handle the Forager change in your portfolio:

    1. Remove your managed fund holding by recording a sell transaction at the cost base so that no CGT is calculated. If you have several managed fund transactions you can obtain your cost base data by going to the Historical Cost Report found in the Reports menu. Set the sell date to when the managed fund delisted.

    2. To reflect your new ASX listed shareholding, please calculate how many shares you're entitled to based on the officially announced ratio which should be in the communication sent to you by Forager.

    3. Add a new holding and use the opening balance feature. This allows you to enter a cost base which is used for CGT reporting (the original cost base of your managed fund shares in this case), but performance reporting will be calculated based on the change in market value from the opening balance date. Use the date Forager listed as the opening balance date.

    Note: using this approach means that your CGT report will not account for any CGT discount if you choose to sell your newly acquired ASX listed shares in the next 12 Months. For tax purposes, you may consider backdating the opening balance date as required when you run a CGT report, or downloading the CGT report into Excel format and making a manual adjustment.

    More information about the listing of Forager: http://www.etfwatch.com.au/blog/forag...

    Let us know if you have any further questions!

    Have a wonderful day.

    Cheers,

    Emma
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  • Emma,

    Thanks for the suggestions, but I think that I foresee an additional problem. The main reason that I use Sharesight is to track the *performance* of my holdings.
    In my portfolio view, FASF is currently showing a 15.11%pa return over three years, mostly in the form of 14.63% of distributions. How can I retain that information to assess (in future) long term performance? Or will Sharesight force me to draw a line in the sand at listing date?

    Cheers,
    Tony
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  • Hi Emma,

    I agree totally with Tony's concern above.

    FOR performance is being erroneously measured against the opening day's close price on 16th Dec, rather than the cost base of units (which are now shares since ASX listing) of purchases made prior to listing whilst it was a managed fund.

    How can we get accurate performance figures in this scenario?

    Thanks

    Tim
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  • Tim I think given Forager is now listed, performance going forward will be measured at the share price level rather than the underlying NTA, as all other LICs & LITs in sharesight are. Over time performance will normalise as the fund settles in to a certain premium or discount to its NTA.
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  • A simple solution for my perspective would be to allow us to enter a price against the existing holding, like you can for 'Other'. That way I can preserve my purchase history.

    In my case I made a lot of regular monthly 'purchases' of units, and it would a proverbial pain to re-enter them again.
    And I would need to round up or down as you don't permit decimals for share holdings.
    One of the things I like about sharesight is that it calculates an CGT in an optimal manner.
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  • I’m Frustrated
    This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Forager float.

    I can't get the Forager float worked out.
    I "sold" at cost but what do I buy at ?
    Seems if I buy at cost the sold shares are still accumulating profit.
    I'm afraid that without a clear directive from Sharesite this issue will distort my portfolio.
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  • As Emma mentioned Sharesight can't at this stage merge the unlisted fund into the new listed security. We are working on some improved handling of this sort of situation -- which also affects stock mergers.

    In the meantime there are two workarounds:

    1. Do as Emma suggested. This will handle the CGT side but it will distort the performance somewhat for intermediate periods because the period where the fund is unlisted will show not a change in value.

    2. The other approach is to sell the unlisted fund at the closing unlisted value and then do a buy for the listed stock at the same value. This will then preserve all the performance history of the previous fund and also show the performance of the stock post-listing. The performance of the listed stock will only be shown post listing but the portfolio return will correctly capture the performance for the listed and unlisted periods.

    To see the total performance for both listed and unlisted together I would create a custom group consisting of the listed and unlisted funds. This group would then show the performance both combined since the original purchase

    The downside of this approach is that you will have a CGT event when you "sell" the unlisted fund. You will need to exclude this in this year's tax. When you eventually sell the listed stock the CGT will only be from the buy date of the listed stock. To deal with this you will need to make a note to combine the CGT amounts from the listed and unlisted holding periods when you ultimately sell. This is a bit of manual work but shouldn't be too onerous for most investors.

    I don't own this fund but if I did I would be choosing option 2.

    Hope that helps. II do know the Sharesight development team have a project underway which will handle this type of situation in a more elegant way. It should be available early next year

    Merry Xmas,

    Andrew Bird
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    • Ben. Can you please update as to when the functionality you are developing to deal with the Forager situation will be completed. Also, will this functionality be able to be applied to earlier dates such that it can be used to address the Forager situation. Given the listing only happened in 1617, we just need the functionality by about Dec 17 to do tax returns etc. Is it likely to be completed by this date? regards Rob
    • Hi Rob,

      On Thursday last week we managed to finally tackle our remaining performance and cost base issues with this new feature.

      These changes have been released, but we've kept the feature 'hidden' while we make a couple of small User Interface changes to our merge tool

      We will probably release this first part of our merge feature to our beta users in the next week or so - I can add you to this group if you are not already.

      However, we haven't resolved the second part of dealing with these merge events which is finding a suitable solution regarding cgt discounts if the new holding is sold within 12 months. We are currently investigating a solution for this.

      We handle performance and cost base as described by Andrew in his approach 2 above:

      1. We create a merge (cancel) event that performs a sell of the unlisted holding at the Dec 16 market price. However the transaction does not appear as a CGT event.

      2. We create a merge (buy) holding for the listed fund taking the cost base from the cancelled holding but also the market value of the cancelled holding as at the 16th December - this ensures no performance is list from the portfolio as a result of the 'merge' event.

      I will post a couple of working examples below to show how this all looks in Sharesight.

      Regards
      Ben
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  • Thanks Andrew,

    Option 2 certainly sounds the better method from my perspective and I'm strongly considering it.

    But do I understand you correctly that Option 3 would be just to wait a few months and a new feature will handle
    o THIS situation,
    or just
    o "this type of situation" but the opportunity for FORager will be passed?

    I'm thinking that you mean the former, (dependent upon the qty of post-listing events).... ?

    Cheers,
    Tony
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  • This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled when will ASX:FOR be added to database?.

    trying to implement a change of holding from Forager Australian fund to ASX:FOR but this is not appearing in your ASX data base (appears in broker holdings though)
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  • Hi All,

    I'll offer an alternative approach which is to enter all the managed fund transactions as purchases of the stock equivalent (i.e. enter all managed fund trades as buy/sell for ASX:FOR) and therefore recreating the full transaction history of the managed fund as though they were done for the new listed stock. This will keep your CGT calculations & full performance history correct though the performance figures reflect the trade price data points because intra-trade price movements are lost as there were no prices for the stock (ASX:FOR) during the pre-listing period.

    The downsides to this approach, as far as I can tell, is that it will not account for intra-trade price movements and I needed to manually re-enter distributions (as dividends) and the reinvestments of them; I'd love for people to point out other reasons why this approach is flawed.

    How do you do this? As follows:
    1. Export all trades from Sharesight for Forager Aust Managed Fund (use all Trades report and delete irrelevant trades)
    2. In export, round quantity field to whole numbers (required as ASX stocks cannot be traded in fractional amounts). Check the total with your Forager holding and adjust to match (I needed an extra 2 shares to match my total holding and I did this by rounding up two randomly selected transactions that had been rounded down)
    3. Modify the instrument description to be ASX FOR rather than the managed fund code
    4. Load transactions through bulk import in Sharesight

    Cheers,
    Dan
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  • The approach by Dan would seem to be worth considering - especially if you have only have one initial purchase as I do - there is not a lot of work in entering the dividends manually. None of mine were reinvested so that is pretty simple. A simple screen shot of the dividends will make it easier.

    I am presuming that Sharesight will pick up the price from the date of listing on 16th December.

    Like Dan I would be interested in some comments on this idea before I step into the breech.
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  • Hi Norwen,

    Just letting you know that I went ahead and did what I suggested and it seems to work OK... You're correct - Sharesight picks up daily prices from the date of listing.

    -- Dan
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  • Hi All,

    We will likely release to our beta users this week the first cut of our new merge feature.

    If you are not a beta user and would like to try out how this merge tool works on the Forager event, please send an email to support@sharesight.com

    After completing the merge event using 1000 shares as an example:

    You will see a 'Merge (cancel) event against the unlisted forager fund capturing the market value on the 16th December - however this transaction will not appear as a CGT event:


    The merge event will also create a merge (buy) event that shifts the cost base from the cancelled holding and adds it to this new holding. The market value of the cancelled holding will be used as the market value of the new holding as a starting point to ensure that no performance gains or losses 'disappear' as a result of the merge event:



    The merge event 'chain's' these two events together, so an update to one results in an update to the other in order to keep your portfolio accurate.

    We are now exploring ways to deal with the next part of this issue, namely how to accurately report CGT if you sold the new listed holding within 12 months.

    Regards
    Ben
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  • Is it a one stop shop ?

    For example, if I had 20 "Buy' transactions over 20 months for the 'old Forager', do I need to invoke 'Marge" 20 times or just once?

    If it is just once, will it create 20 individual new events against 'FOR'?
    • Hi Christian,

      It is a one stop shop. The merge event shifts the remaining cost base from the unlisted instrument to the new listed instrument on the day of the fund being listed.

      To see a breakdown of trading history before the listing event, you would need to view the unlisted holding details.

      We are currently investigating options for accurately dealing with CGT events, particularly where shares are sold within 12 months of the fund being listed.

      This feature has been designed primarily to handle mergers, such as the merger between MTU and VOC in 2016, however some of you may find this tool useful to record this listing event.

      For those with a more complex trading history, or who have sold or intend to sell within 12 months of the 16 Dec listing event may want to use one of the other approaches suggested above, at least until we have tackled the second part of the equation - namely accurate CGT reporting.

      Regards
      Ben
    • thanks, look forward to it.
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  • Hi All,

    We have released an early beta version of our Merge feature.

    You can find the merge button under Holding settings within a holding as long as you are a Sharesight beta user.

    A couple of things worth mentioning regarding this early release:

    At this stage we pass a simple average cost base through to the new holding, which is fine in some jurisdictions, but not in AU.

    As I mentioned earlier, we are now working on the next phase of our merge feature, specifically to provide accurate CGT reporting in Australia. We will make additional updates to the feature in the coming weeks.

    Regards
    Ben
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  • Hi All,

    Today we opened up use to our new merge feature to all customers.

    You can find the merge button under the Holding settings within a holding.

    We now pass through the correct cost base and allow users to enter their own market value at the time of the merge event.

    You might like to visit our help doc to find out more about this feature:
    https://help.sharesight.com/mergers/

    Regards
    Ben
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  • Ben

    There appears to be a function at the bottom of the menu called moving an unlisted fund to a listed investment. This seems to describe the Forager situation more accurately than the merger function (which say one listed company being purchased by another)

    Do we use the merger function or the moving an unlisted function to a listed function?

    Why is the moving function not showing up on the menu?

    Regards Rob
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  • Ben

    I went through and did it with the merger function anyway ... but interested in your response anyway.

    Also - could you use this for the AFIG to AFI rollover?

    Regards Rob
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  • Hi Rob,

    I would use our new merger feature. Although it is geared toward an actual merger of one company into another the feature operates in a way that makes it suitable for this shift from an unlisted to a listed entity.

    The key aspects that the merger feature addresses are:
    A. The cost base is shifted from the unlisted to listed instrument
    B. No CGT event will occur against the unlisted instrument
    C. Performance up to the merge/listing event will be accurate for the cancelled holding
    D. We draw the market value at the time of the merge/listing event from the unlisted/cancelled holding to ensure performance isn't 'lost' from your portfolio as a result of the event.

    When you refer to the feature that allows for an unlisted instrument to be moved to a listed instrument, this is actually only applicable for custom investments (ordinary shares).

    For example, you might create a custom investment for a shareholding in an unlisted entity that subsequently lists itself on the ASX or other exchange.



    The wording is a bit misleading, because of course managed funds are also unlisted. It would be clearer if we called the feature 'Move your custom instrument to a listed instrument.

    I hope that makes sense.
    Cheers
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  • When I go to my holding of the Australian Share Fund I am not show the move to a listed instrument option - only the Merge this holding option. I added my ASF fund to my ASX holdings and re entered the distributions I had received. However, the ASF holding is still on the record. I am presuming that if I delete that holding all details of that holding will be lost. I guess if I have transferred to dividend records to the ASX listing they are still on the record - however, I am not sure about the CGT issues with this action. Appreciate some comments.
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    • Does this mean that I have to delete my original Forager Australian Share Fund entries and recreate them as a "Custom Investment" and then I will be able to access the Move to a Listed Instrument option. This would not be a major issue for me as I only had one single purchase and did not reinvest the distributions.
    • Hi Norwen,

      No, I don't think you would want to do that. I only mentioned the feature 'Move to a Listed Instrument' simply to explain that it is only to be used when you want to move a holding that is a custom investment to a listed holding.

      In this situation, the better tool to use is the merger feature.
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  • Hi,
    Thanks - I finally got around to cleaning up my FOR.AX holding in the "preferred" Merge fashion. Thank you for this feature.

    However, I must be totally misunderstanding this statement from Ben in some fashion:
    >to ensure that no performance gains or losses 'disappear' as a result of the merge event:
    https://getsatisfaction.com/sharesigh...

    I haven't been able to find a way see any performance of the old instrument AHEAD of 15/12/16 - i.e. forward in time - (fair enough, it's the deceased in the equation) but I can't see any performance of the new instrument PRIOR to - i.e backward in time - from 15/12/16. (I accept that the data remains - thanks. I just can't find a way to SEE its effect in Sharesight's wonderful performance displays)

    Where do I look for the combined performance gains or losses that didn't disappear?

    If you look back in the thread to the concern about being forced to draw a performance line in the sand, I'm not seeing how or perhaps where, this was addressed?

    Is it possible that the "Show Performance since" drop-down is being a little TOO clever and refusing to offer me the "1, 2, 5, 10 year options" based upon my MERGE DATE?? (Cursory testing with other holdings suggests so!) Or is it more complex than that?

    I had anticipated being able to review combined performance back to at least 2013, but ... ??

    OTOH, perhaps I've got totally the wrong end of the stick?
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